Mixing Primaris, deepstrike and Repulsors

[Prot]

I’m still struggling with common opponents. I’m seemingly not getting the same mileage out of my Primaris that some of you are.

 

So far I’ve found mixing in Aggressors and Helblasters with an Intercessor squad to be almost too cost prohibitive to truly convince me that they are better or.. equal to Vets with good ol Frag Cannons

 

So I’m wondering are you guys mostly deepstriking these squads? Or using Repulsors? Or perhaps you are only using one squad of Primaris? What has your experience been like? Do you use mixed Primaris or stick to cheaper Intercessors?

[Lemondish]

I have specific roles I want my Primaris to fill. My Intergressor squad is 5 auto bolt rifle Intercessors, 4 bolt Aggressors, and 1 bolt Inceptor. They start on the table and move as fast as possible to a solid vantage point or objective in cover. They then bring the dakka. They perform a similar role to, say, a smallish Vet squad with frag cannons in a Razorback. They're majority T5 with a 2+ save in cover and are a fine source of firepower if you need to drown something in bullets.

 

My Intercessor squad with 4 Hellblasters and 1 plasma Inceptor is usually one that I deep strike. They are aimed at something super dangerous.

[Sloeberjong]

What Lemondish said really...though I use 3 hellblasters in my plasma units (kinda a budget option). They bring enough damage when they come teleporting.

[Vel'Cona]

I like the idea of pure or blended Hellblasters for the "this thing must die" role, particularly given Teleportarium exists.  I'm not entirely convinced that any of the Kill Team combos are necessary but the Inceptor is definitely an interesting choice to avoid tarpitting.

[Lemondish]

I like the idea of pure or blended Hellblasters for the "this thing must die" role, particularly given Teleportarium exists.  I'm not entirely convinced that any of the Kill Team combos are necessary but the Inceptor is definitely an interesting choice to avoid tarpitting.

 

This is definitely smart words to live by for DW. One of the biggest pitfalls I have with DW is the flexibility. 

 

Now, I hear you saying "Silly Lemondish! You must have gone sour in the brain. How is flexibility a pitfall?"

 

Because you can get lost in it.

 

The above Intergressor unit is a pretty expensive (and a mostly extreme) example of focusing on one primary job and going all out to achieve it. It's a really powerful and super fun to use unit, but its core is basically just SIA Intercessors with an Inceptor so they don't get silenced in combat. Those are the only required pieces. If we were to stick with just those Intercessors, then this would be a perfectly good unit that is durable, has tons of range, and comes in at a pretty decent 225 points for 20 wounds of 2+ armour save marines (in cover) that can reach out to 18'' with AP -2 bolt rifles. That's a perfectly serviceable unit with a decent amount of dakka that thins screens and holds objectives and remains pretty mobile doing it.

 

Even though I've also gone and added 75 points of other junk on top of that, what I haven't really done is make them any more flexible. Now we're at a 300 point unit thanks to the following additions:

• Auto bolt rifles over standard ones
• Traded 4 Intercessors for Aggressors, adding the ability to advance and fire the auto bolt rifles without penalty
• The number of T5 models mean they're T5 right from the beginning

But every decision I made was to double down on their primary role of clearing screens and being mobile objective cappers that can't be silenced by a transport flying into them. I'm not adding to the unit to make them more flexible to take on different jobs - just to perform their one job even better than they used to. 

 

How many times have you seen somebody wanting to add a couple Flame aggressors to deter charges with their powerful overwatch? The flamers are great, but what if you run into a BA smashcaptain with the relic jump pack? Or you're charged by a wave serpent? Or you're lining up against Tau? That flexibility becomes 80 points of wasted potential. I could have added a Reiver for their bag of tricks, or a couple Hellblasters to threaten tougher targets too. That's the pitfall. 

 

The point is, the type of flexibility you gain by mixing in a bunch of options into kill teams isn't free and you have to carefully weigh if that flexibility serves the unit's main role or not. The Intercessors with Hellblasters takes on the exact same role that Hellblasters normally do - high T target hunting. The best way to think about this unit in particular is that you're adding Intercessors to a Hellblaster unit rather than the other way around. Even though that's not particularly accurate, that's the role they're going to play. The Intercessors (and the Inceptor) are there to remove some of the biggest weaknesses of Hellblasters - durability (losing potency as they lose wounds), and being easy to silence by charging them. Play them like you would a normal Hellblaster unit, and since normal Hellblasters would absolutely kill for a way to deploy from deep strike, do it.

 

Caveat - this is from a slightly more competitive perspective. There's nothing inherently wrong with building your Intercessor squads however you want - the delta between picking super efficient min-max units and going all out with crazy builds is relatively small and your success will likely be largely dependent on how you use the unit, and not as reliant on what its makeup is.

[vigitant]

100% agree with Lemondish on this.

I use the same intergressor squad, and its nasty.  I especially love that if its within 18" of your opponents army, they cannot ignore it, even down to the last guy.  Potentially 12+2d6 shots per aggressor is crazy.

[Mobius0288]

I feel you Prot. I don't have super sexy Primaris kill teams. I built one of each kind of those fortis kill teams and found the best success with only a couple hellblasters across 2 intercessor teams. It really gave me flexibility when I wanted to use my angelis beacon because I could teleport the strong unit one turn 2 to my jump captain.

 

I want to use the aggressors more but I find myself going for bikers instead.

 

An example list I had was:

 

Intercessor + 2 Hellblaster

Intercessor + 3 Hellblaster

Intercessor

Veteran (combi-melta focus) + biker/VVs for combat squading

Veteran (storm/heavy bolter focus) + biker/VVs for combat squading

 

The MVPs were the Hellblasters and the kitted out veterans. The intercessors did work too, especially with the HQ auras closeby. I recently dialed back the hellblasters and just run one unit w/ hellblasters so I could get points in transports (and my new Sicarian :D )

[anarchistscourge]

The squads that seem to pop up most are 5x Intercessors w/ 4x Agressors and Inceptor. And then 5x Intercessors w/ 4x Hellblasters and an Inceptor.

How often are people taking different Fortis teams and is it ever worth combat squading them? 

[vigitant]

The squads that seem to pop up most are 5x Intercessors w/ 4x Agressors and Inceptor. And then 5x Intercessors w/ 4x Hellblasters and an Inceptor.

How often are people taking different Fortis teams and is it ever worth combat squading them? 

I tend to take 5 helblasters/5 intercessors, myself.  I usually drop them in with a watchmaster and a vet team nearby.  Nothing left in range to charge them, and the vet team usually screens em after that.

I've taken a unit with 7 assault intercessors and an agressor before, and it did its job well.  mobile, consistent fire.

[Prot]

Well I went too bonkers originally.

 

Then I went very vanilla and that worked very well... just basic Intercessors, and the 'fancy' stuff was in the vet squads. (SS, FC, etc)

 

Today I am trying something more focused:

 

1 "Bolt" Fortis squad: 5 Intercessors, 4 Aggressors, 1 Bolt Inceptor (AutoBolt Rifles)

 

1 "Cawl Pattern" Fortis squad: 5 Intercessors, 4 Helblasters, 1 Plasma Inceptor.

 

The Cawl Pattern Fortis comes down with a Termie Capt (that limited model I'm in love with.)

 

This could be a bad idea. I'm still using dual Battalions as I still feel the codex gets a lot of added value from our strats.

 

The thing I keep reminding myself is my Custodes army is amazingly bad at shooting anything aside from bolters, BUT it is fairly quick (overall) and I get through vehicles with that  massive assault element.

[spacewatch]

...

Today I am trying something more focused:

 

1 "Bolt" Fortis squad: 5 Intercessors, 4 Aggressors, 1 Bolt Inceptor (AutoBolt Rifles)

 

1 "Cawl Pattern" Fortis squad: 5 Intercessors, 4 Helblasters, 1 Plasma Inceptor.

...

 

Cool. I would very much like to hear how these teams have worked in practice.

[Lemondish]

Well I went too bonkers originally.

 

Then I went very vanilla and that worked very well... just basic Intercessors, and the 'fancy' stuff was in the vet squads. (SS, FC, etc)

 

Today I am trying something more focused:

 

1 "Bolt" Fortis squad: 5 Intercessors, 4 Aggressors, 1 Bolt Inceptor (AutoBolt Rifles)

 

1 "Cawl Pattern" Fortis squad: 5 Intercessors, 4 Helblasters, 1 Plasma Inceptor.

 

The Cawl Pattern Fortis comes down with a Termie Capt (that limited model I'm in love with.)

 

This could be a bad idea. I'm still using dual Battalions as I still feel the codex gets a lot of added value from our strats.

 

The thing I keep reminding myself is my Custodes army is amazingly bad at shooting anything aside from bolters, BUT it is fairly quick (overall) and I get through vehicles with that  massive assault element.

 

Those are exactly my go to Intercessor kill teams that I've been using since the Codex landed - I don't think you're going to be disappointed. 

 

The Termie captain model you're referring to - is that the DW captain model, or is there another you're talking about? I'm eager to see what you mean if it isn't what I have in mind :D

[Vel'Cona]

This could be a bad idea. I'm still using dual Battalions as I still feel the codex gets a lot of added value from our strats.

 

I'm inclined to agree, though assuming you don't want to run Imp Soup this is pretty much the only option you have to net CPs for your Kill Teams.  Fortunately, having our "heavy hitters" as Troops means we can cover both bases at once, but as always it leaves DW as an army that can dish it out but tends to squish quickly if our initial strike isn't hard enough.

[Lemondish]

 

This could be a bad idea. I'm still using dual Battalions as I still feel the codex gets a lot of added value from our strats.

 

I'm inclined to agree, though assuming you don't want to run Imp Soup this is pretty much the only option you have to net CPs for your Kill Teams.  Fortunately, having our "heavy hitters" as Troops means we can cover both bases at once, but as always it leaves DW as an army that can dish it out but tends to squish quickly if our initial strike isn't hard enough.

 

 

Very true. I've been looking at fielding double DW battalions myself to get away from my self-imposed IG reliance and trying to solve some of the screening and board coverage issues with a critical mass of 5 man Intercessor squads. This is mostly because I really like painting up the Deathwatch Intercessors - those models are just so sexy - and I want them all on the board at some point Think I'll add a handful of Apothecaries as well. 

 

At this point, the biggest issue I'm running into is the HQ tax. The captain thread has been a boon in finding different ways to run that particular HQ in unique ways, so that's a plus. 

 

Edit: On second thought, no Apothecaries. Would be way better just putting the points into a whole other squad. 

[Prot]

Agreed. The HQs can have a diminishing return. I sometimes think an LT would be nice but I can’t help but always think how suitable we would have been for unique Xenos Psykers. But I still use at least one to get my Psychic defence going. I’d take two in my Battalions but I need those re roll auras so badly.

 

But what’s very cool about our Battalions is I can take these multi faceted kill teams, including Fortis and at least it’s fluffy and even effective if done right!

[Lemondish]

Agreed. The HQs can have a diminishing return. I sometimes think an LT would be nice but I can’t help but always think how suitable we would have been for unique Xenos Psykers. But I still use at least one to get my Psychic defence going. I’d take two in my Battalions but I need those re roll auras so badly.

 

But what’s very cool about our Battalions is I can take these multi faceted kill teams, including Fortis and at least it’s fluffy and even effective if done right!

 

Not sure the LT would provide anything that Mission Tactics can't already do for you. I think there was definitely a missed opportunity on named characters considering both Ortan Cassius and Jensus Natorian could have been pretty easy addtiions from the Kill Team Cassius box. A pity Vets don't have the attacks to want to be in melee otherwise a Chaplain might have actually been worthwhile. Maybe the Chaplain Dreadnought (though I think its oop...)?

 

At this point I'm just running either two Librarians or two Captains. 

 

Lib builds are either Primaris or with a jump pack. Captains are all over the place - I want to try out the melta fist combi-melta Terminator along with a jump captain with TH, Castellan of the Black Vault, storm bolter, and bane bolts. 

[Prot]

 

...

Today I am trying something more focused:

 

1 "Bolt" Fortis squad: 5 Intercessors, 4 Aggressors, 1 Bolt Inceptor (AutoBolt Rifles)

 

1 "Cawl Pattern" Fortis squad: 5 Intercessors, 4 Helblasters, 1 Plasma Inceptor.

...

 

 

Cool. I would very much like to hear how these teams have worked in practice.

Well i had a few games and I’ve taken some pics and wanted to do real batreps but I don’t know if I’ll get the time.

 

These games were against good armies, but not super cut throat ITC style games. (I came off an ITC event and need a break from that). With that said...

 

The last three games have been good but the last two were quite memorable ;

 

First was a pretty competitive Necron list I was helping a friend build. Why this game was significant to me is because my opponent whoooped my DW last game pretty badly. I admit while his lost is strong I took stuff I don’t really think works that well for me... Corvus, a Redemptor, etc (my typical weaknessss).

 

I won’t turn this into a batrep post but the Primaris squads I used worked exceptionally well in this game. What gave me huge issues last game was the Necron Invulnerable units were so hard to get through. Poison rounds just didn’t cut it and the Lychguard and Wraiths had no issues soaking up the gun fire on two fronts. This time however I got behind the cross with the ‘Cawl Pattern Fortis’ this gave him big issues on overcharging plasma in those kinds of numbers. On the other front my Bolt-Fortis unit stood their ground foreseeing g a charge and double shot a ton making the ensu8ng assault kind of stutter. Vets handled the Destroyers.

 

Game two was against a good well rounded Nid list..two squads of hive guard, biovores for immortals, lots of Psychic and Genestealer swarms. I was getting hammered until T4 and the squads really performed well here.

 

Normally I don’t stick to identical lists too long but these squads have been really fun in this configuration.

[spacewatch]

 

 

...

 

Cool. I would very much like to hear how these teams have worked in practice.

Well i had a few games and I’ve taken some pics and wanted to do real batreps but I don’t know if I’ll get the time.

...

Normally I don’t stick to identical lists too long but these squads have been really fun in this configuration.

 

 

Thanks man, I appreciate getting back to this   It's also good to hear your Fortis Kill-Teams performed well. I'm not an ITC level player but after reading your report I started thinking a few issues.

 

Regarding Necrons both Lychguard and Wraiths are multiple wound high toughnes and rather good save+inv. save melee units. So I too have used Hellfire ammo to shoot them but if you feel that poison doesn't work but plasma does then do I guess it right that it's the supercharged D2 that worked and not Incinerators high AP? On the other hand Bolt rifle's AP1 Hellfire is spot on when shooting guard because inv. save is just a little bit worse than basic save.

 

Regardin Nids my experience is that Genestealers bend under high volume of fire so I quess your "Bolt" Fortis team was able to handle them rather well? Other than that do you feel that it's just the better durability of Primaris marines overall that pays off when dealing with armies having massive psychic phase and/or not needing LOS to shoot? I mean that at least with Orcs I have experienced that after couple of rounds horde blobs are so thin that they cannot any longer screen psykers and long range shooters which then become juicy targets.

 

I still cannot see the "light" above Hellblaster Fortis squads. I do see that on paper Hellblaster Fortis Kill-Teams deliver both durability, effectiveness and versitality (info form of high AP and D2 shots) in one package. But I also see that the package is also expensive, easy to kill with widely available D2+ weapons and it's effectiveness is downgraded by the enemy invulnerable saves which are very widely available too. Also when comparing cost effectiveness (meaning extra SB Vets you are able to byu for the same cost) to SB Vet teams against Lychguard type of units SB teams don't look bad at all. But I guess I just need to try Hellblaster Fortis to see the light.

 

More generally reports like this (and other good reports) tell me that we may have new problem area that SIA cannot handle and it's T5+ toughness W3+ infantry/elites/characters/... (excluding vehicles and monsters which allready are problematic too) having reasonably good base save and (whatever) invulnerable save. We can wound these models with SIA Hellfire ammo but it looks like due to limited numbers our shooting volume is not enough to kill those models fast enough. On the other hand enemy inv. saves negate high AP weapons so only way to go is to increase shooting volume or use D2 weapons. In practice this means more SB's or more Plasma. Yes, there are other D2 sources too but FC's are too expensive to take more than 6-8 peer army and I feel other solutions are either even more expensive or just "one use only" due to very short range or melee use. Before SB hype we used x3 Combi-Plasma/Plasmagun teams to handle high-T and multiple-W models/units but nowadays I do not see plasma elsewhere but in Fortis Kill-Teams. Maybe this is the case/niche for Fortis.

 

Anyway your report helped me to see role for "(auto)Bolt" Fortis team. I think I try simpler x5 (auto)bolt-Intercessor + x1 bolt-Inceptor squad first. If unit fails to deliver compared to Frag-Shotgun (run like hell and frag them off table) team it replaces then I know that for Primaris to work they must be delivered in full Kill-Teams because it's the durability not the firepower that matters ...which if I decide to start using Primaris would put me into the situation where I need to re-think the whole army composition and tactics. 

[Lemondish]

I still cannot see the "light" above Hellblaster Fortis squads. I do see that on paper Hellblaster Fortis Kill-Teams deliver both durability, effectiveness and versitality (info form of high AP and D2 shots) in one package. But I also see that the package is also expensive, easy to kill with widely available D2+ weapons and it's effectiveness is downgraded by the enemy invulnerable saves which are very widely available too. Also when comparing cost effectiveness (meaning extra SB Vets you are able to byu for the same cost) to SB Vet teams against Lychguard type of units SB teams don't look bad at all. But I guess I just need to try Hellblaster Fortis to see the light.

Don't worry, it's not some hidden secret. Hellblasters are a fantastic Primaris Fire Support unit. DW just provide you amazing options for mitigating or outright removing their biggest weaknesses when included in Kill Teams.

 

As far as not seeing combi-plasma more often, that's most likely just a matter of time as more games are played and new lessons learned. Folks are still very much enamored by the weight of fire achieved with storm bolters, and until we start seeing a large influx of multi-wound high T, high invuln save units that can't be solved with 40 Hellfire rounds, I think those options will remain niche and underrated.

[Prot]

There's some really good food for thought there, I'll try to remain focused in my own observations:

 

+ Hellblasters: Short version; I used to use them with my Ultra's constantly, then found I got sick and tired of them getting one round of shooting and dying. Then I moved into this stage where I wanted them to do something so badly I would put them in a Repulsor.  This got ridiculous IMHO because I found I was sacrificing function of the army just to make a 'cool' squad more effective!

 

The Deathwatch actually solve all of that up front (I think this is what Lemondish is referring to as well).  Deep strike + Mixed unit = fixed my Ultra-issues. It's not cheap though so it MUST work. This unit is darn expensive and if it fails, your game is most likely going quite poorly.

 

+ Invulns: Massed Invulns on tough, multiwound units are really difficult for me. The poison isn't enough... the invluns are too high. So while wounding on 2's is nice, I found I had to save that stuff for masses of warriors, and Immortals, and save all the overcharged Plasma stuff for the Wraiths.

 

Because I was trying to be brief there was one important element here... in both of those games my Venerable dread was fantastic! In both cases I could not handle the rush with Fortis Teams alone, and against the Necrons I made a huge charge after deep strike into what remained of a large Wraith squad. Huge moment in that game.

[Lemondish]

What build are you using on the dread?

 

Do you run any Librarians to try and bring in Null Zone?

[Prot]

What build are you using on the dread?

Do you run any Librarians to try and bring in Null Zone?

I like where you are thinking with these questions. I think I have to do a brief batrep because the Libby was indeed a big, or horrible moment depending on how you look at it. Lol

 

Dread is a very uncommon build but I can’t change it now because it’s filled a huge gap for me; Las and Cc arm.

[Lemondish]

 

What build are you using on the dread?

Do you run any Librarians to try and bring in Null Zone?

I like where you are thinking with these questions. I think I have to do a brief batrep because the Libby was indeed a big, or horrible moment depending on how you look at it. Lol

 

Dread is a very uncommon build but I can’t change it now because it’s filled a huge gap for me; Las and Cc arm.

Makes him versatile and a threat everywhere, and I was guessing that was the build.

 

I've been looking at running 2 Librarians at this point, but I haven't had many matches against the types of invuln units you ran into.

[Ceranidian]

 

Dread is a very uncommon build but I can’t change it now because it’s filled a huge gap for me; Las and Cc arm.

 

I find this very interesting since this is the loadout I have on my VenDread (haven't been able to get my hands on a missile launcher arm yet). How did you use it and why was it so good?

[Mobius0288]

 

More generally reports like this (and other good reports) tell me that we may have new problem area that SIA cannot handle and it's T5+ toughness W3+ infantry/elites/characters/... (excluding vehicles and monsters which allready are problematic too) having reasonably good base save and (whatever) invulnerable save. We can wound these models with SIA Hellfire ammo but it looks like due to limited numbers our shooting volume is not enough to kill those models fast enough. On the other hand enemy inv. saves negate high AP weapons so only way to go is to increase shooting volume or use D2 weapons. In practice this means more SB's or more Plasma. Yes, there are other D2 sources too but FC's are too expensive to take more than 6-8 peer army and I feel other solutions are either even more expensive or just "one use only" due to very short range or melee use. Before SB hype we used x3 Combi-Plasma/Plasmagun teams to handle high-T and multiple-W models/units but nowadays I do not see plasma elsewhere but in Fortis Kill-Teams. Maybe this is the case/niche for Fortis.

 

 

Just some observations about plasma... I loved plasma before the codex and created a squad or two to incorporate them. I think the meta has always been to use them on vehicles, but you were still wounding on 4's and 5's. The Hellblasters changed the game big time for DW, and now I hardly waste points on regular plasma.

 

If I do take regular plasma, it's for mulching elite infantry and forcing invuls (DG, etc). There's no point in trying to use it on vehicles unless you are desperate to finish off that razorback with 1-2 wounds left. I do still use combi-plasma but I always keep them near the watchmaster, and honestly, you should never overcharge if firing both. You take combi-plasma for more shots, or just take plasma if you're confident with the rest of the kill team. Currently use 5 storm bolters and 4 combi-plasma, with shields of course. 1 slot left for an accompanying HQ in a transport.