The Merits of Mono

[PeteySödes]

Wanted to start a new thread to not derail existing discussion further. The idea is how people feel about the current need to look outside our codex to fill gaps and stay competitive.

 

For me, I feel like a I'm a good player but still lean heavy on the hobby vs. staying on the bleeding edge for tournament play. That said, in 8th this I'm looking at my first solo ITC-like tournament in long time, previously doing team thus far in 8th.

 

Im definitely feeling the press in my list building on account of the fact that a Guard battalion is less points than a Grey hunter pack. Or that now i'm looking at a tourny field that is likely to include knights where currently SM suffer to create an effective take all comers list with this much variance.

 

Definitely don't want this to be a whine fest but just pitching ideas for mono list elements that have been effective. Or for those that have branched out, how do you feel about it?

 

Our codex is coming at some point but I think it safe to say it's not going to kill soup and that soup will still likely be the most competitive option so i think it still valid to discuss.

[Bulwyf]

I only run mono lists.

 

The problem is that soup lists are the top tier in ITC play. Imperium soup, Chaos soup, Eldar/Dark Eldar soup...all very powerful. Running  a pure Space Wolves list is fine for fun games but you are at a disadvantage in competitive play.

 

I've listed several armies on the SW army list board for 2k points. I emphasize our strengths which is assault, assault and more assault. You at a minimum need at least one Wulfen squad with the proper transport and the characters to protect them. That means a Wolf Priest and Rune Priest. I would absolutely take Njal for his extra denial the witch goodness. Wolf Priest is giving all units near him rerolls to all misses in fight phase. Your choice of transport should be the Stormwolf. I love my land raider crusader but in a competitive game it has nothing on the Stormwolf.

 

Grey Hunters are your flexible troop choices. I usually run mine in three squads, one squad each piled into a Razorback. Assault cannons are probably your best weapon choice for the RBs. I like my GH squads as 6 man (max that will fit into a RB) with a plasma gun in there and a WGPL with a storm shield/power axe. Having all 3 of your squads with a 3++ save is huge. It keeps them on the board longer than they should be.

 

Bjorn is your HQ choice. Put the Saga WL trait on him so he can fight first. I like either the assault cannon or las cannons on him. An axe/shield Dread to be his bodyguard is a great idea. You can deal out a phenomenal amount of damage in CC with Bjorn coupled with an axe/shield Dread. Murderfang is also good if you have the points to fit him in.

 

Until we get our codex we are hampered by lack of stratagems and no chapter/legion army bonus. We also are missing out on probably unit costs going down. There's no way to say it: until we get our codex we are at a significant disadvantage even in friendly games. On ITC, frankly, I wouldn't play them until we get our codex. But if you do play, good on you, and I hope my advice helped.

[TiguriusX]

I had mono once it was a drag....i usually operate on 5 to 6 hours of sleep a day but was basically hibernating when i had it and when i was awake had zero energy my wife (gf at the time) got away with some tickling crimes that will forever be remembered

 

oh wait you didn't mean that mono

 

ITC and competition are why i went outside our codex

 

we are an elite and expensive army

 

we have no stratagem secret weapons

 

i turned to forgeworld first and then assassins (culexus mainly) to fill the gap in my army

 

i feel thkse are acceptable fluffy mixes personally

 

the final item i go back and forth on is a vanilla librarian for the null zone. i have faced armies that can hinder or simply turn off invulnerable saves and feel like a 1 legged man in an ass kicking contest

[Bulwyf]

I had mono once it was a drag....i usually operate on 5 to 6 hours of sleep a day but was basically hibernating when i had it and when i was awake had zero energy my wife (gf at the time) got away with some tickling crimes that will forever be remembered

 

oh wait you didn't mean that mono

 

ITC and competition are why i went outside our codex

 

we are an elite and expensive army

 

we have no stratagem secret weapons

 

i turned to forgeworld first and then assassins (culexus mainly) to fill the gap in my army

 

i feel thkse are acceptable fluffy mixes personally

 

the final item i go back and forth on is a vanilla librarian for the null zone. i have faced armies that can hinder or simply turn off invulnerable saves and feel like a 1 legged man in an ass kicking contest

 

That's why you bring Njal. What Death Hex when you can deny that with a bonus to deny and a free reroll to deny it thanks to Njal?

[Bulwyf]

This is an example list of mine that has done major damage.

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [76 PL, 1322pts] ++

+ HQ +

Bjorn the Fell-handed [14 PL, 239pts]: Assault cannon, Heavy flamer, Saga of the Warrior Born, Warlord

Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour [9 PL, 153pts]: 1. Storm Caller, 2. Tempest's Wrath, 3. Jaws of the World Wolf

+ Troops +

Grey Hunters [8 PL, 101pts]: 4x Chainsword
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword
. 3x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Power axe, Storm shield

Grey Hunters [8 PL, 101pts]: 4x Chainsword
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword
. 3x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Power axe, Storm shield

Grey Hunters [8 PL, 101pts]: 4x Chainsword
. Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Chainsword
. 3x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol
. Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Plasma gun
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Power axe, Storm shield

+ Flyer +

Stormwolf [14 PL, 279pts]: Twin helfrost cannon
. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
. Two Twin Heavy Bolters: 2x Twin heavy bolter

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 116pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 116pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 116pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [45 PL, 674pts] ++

+ HQ +

Wolf Priest [5 PL, 77pts]: Storm bolter

+ Elites +

Dreadnought [7 PL, 136pts]: Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

Dreadnought [7 PL, 136pts]: Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

Wulfen [26 PL, 325pts]
. 3x Great frost axe
. 3x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 3x Storm Shield, 3x Thunder Hammer
. 6x Wulfen
. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

++ Total: [121 PL, 1996pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

 

That gives you 10 CP and hits hard.

[PeteySödes]

Nice, that looks solid. I'll possibly give something like it a try this weekend, I have all those elements minus the wulfen.

 

It's funny because I typically do pretty well still, it was only just recently though that I ran up against a murderous Ynarri list that I really don't think it was possible to win. I'm even one of those :cusss that will never concede, because until that point in a dice based game i felt there was ALWAYS a path to victory. In my defense though I have pulled an inordinate amount of wins from seeing something my opponent missed late game.

[Bulwyf]

Wulfen hit like bulldozers. They are the best assault unit in the game. Not running Wulfen as a SW player it just madness imo. When you start seeing all the damage they do plus how they boost other SW around them you will make them an auto include. As they should be.

[PeteySödes]

I’ve used them before yea, that’s just the hobby/fluff player in me I need to square.

[Melete]

We might be able to work some kind of monofaction list once the codex arrives. You see monofaction DA and BA occasionally show up near the top tables. They're 4-2 or 5-1 lists way more than tournament winners, but they're sometimes there.

 

But yeah, taking allies is going to just about any Imperium list better and that's just how 8th edition works.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Nice, that looks solid. I'll possibly give something like it a try this weekend, I have all those elements minus the wulfen.

 

It's funny because I typically do pretty well still, it was only just recently though that I ran up against a murderous Ynarri list that I really don't think it was possible to win. I'm even one of those :cusss that will never concede, because until that point in a dice based game i felt there was ALWAYS a path to victory. In my defense though I have pulled an inordinate amount of wins from seeing something my opponent missed late game.

 

I also thought I was doing well, although there are a few factors. Looking at my own personal records, I am just getting comfortable using mono-list AGAINST other mono-lists with full range of strategems and other nonsense, even using just our 2 strategems. For me, the 3 Long Fang squads were the key to my victories, especially the schizo load out which I mentioned a number of times. Later Bjorn only made it stronger. My only complaint was that my army was what I called aggressive defence line, meaning I spend most of first 3 turns shooting before rushing out of my deployment zone for objectives. right now I almost qualify for a gunline army were it not for the fact I frequently outflank my Grey Hunters, and even my Long Fangs sometimes to get a better position or hide from alpha strikes. So against MEQ lists, I feel comfortable facing even Guilliman  now.

 

What I cannot face is pretty much predictable:

 

1) Hordes (although I managed to beat a full Slaanesh army but only because I camped like a wimp.)

2) Knights and super tanks.

3) Super random Daemons.

4) Unholy Soup combinations.

 

Normally it isn't ONE of the above which kills me but more like a combination of 2 out of 4 above. 

 

So I can say that right now I'm confident against SM armies with the exception of Raven Guard using just mono-list. As for the rest, the only xenos I've comfortably beaten is Orks and surprisingly, non-C'tan using Necrons.

 

Anyway long story cut short, I think for current conditions, mono-Space Wolves can still do well but only against certain armies, like against normal Space Marines. The odds increase if we tailor our army to use the few generic strategems in SM codex, such as Hellfire Rounds, Flakk missile, Honor the chapter, or Only in Death does duty end. With these, even Guilliman will be defeated using our venerable Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.

 

Against any of the other 4 above? Sorry mate, I almost lost hope fighting those odds.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

The units I find to be effective in mono-lists are Long Fangs and Fenrisian Wolves. Bjorn is also very good. In the ITC format Fen Wolves are still good because objectives are always on the ground level. Also you should have plenty of CP to keep the Fen Wolves alive in the morale phase if you need to.

 

Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are a good pairing for units of Long fangs. Their reroll 1's to wound aura compliments the Long Fangs inherent reroll 1's to hit. Give them a jump pack and hammer.

 

Jump packs are the best move system for our characters. Fly is a very important rule this edition.

 

Guard battalions aren't that important right now because we are not starved for CP. Once we get stratagems that may change.

 

Grey Hunters are good objective campers. Put them in cover and they are hard to move. The enemy will have to dedicate a lot of firepower or a decent assault unit.

[Bat33.1]

I don’t think it matters much if you run mono or soup, Space Marines of any type are not top tier competitive. Even at Warhammer World GT events which are very mixed in player ability and are based on ‘beginners’ level 40k with no ETC/ITC style missions and very much out of the book for play style. You still will not find many marine armies doing well, it’s possible but unlikely because as soon as you get near the top you will find optimised lists that are more points efficient than marines. Marines have always been jack of all trades and master of none. The space Wolves codex may bring them closer to the top but I don’t see them displacing the current top tier lists.

[Kasper_Hawser]

The units I find to be effective in mono-lists are Long Fangs and Fenrisian Wolves. Bjorn is also very good. In the ITC format Fen Wolves are still good because objectives are always on the ground level. Also you should have plenty of CP to keep the Fen Wolves alive in the morale phase if you need to.

 

Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are a good pairing for units of Long fangs. Their reroll 1's to wound aura compliments the Long Fangs inherent reroll 1's to hit. Give them a jump pack and hammer.

 

Jump packs are the best move system for our characters. Fly is a very important rule this edition.

 

Guard battalions aren't that important right now because we are not starved for CP. Once we get stratagems that may change.

 

Grey Hunters are good objective campers. Put them in cover and they are hard to move. The enemy will have to dedicate a lot of firepower or a decent assault unit.

 

1) I find it strange using Fen wolves, though i guess the autopass morale is an option, I just don't like using 2 CP on a bunch of dogs.

 

2) Long Fangs rule because they don't need a captain or chapter master to babysit them. WGBL rules as with a jump pack, they can simply zip from one squad or another. Wold Lord on Jump Pack would rule too if they were not so damn expensive. Seriously, JP costs 3 points for WGBL but 20 points for Wolf Lord and Wolf Priest?!?!

 

3) Only problem with jump packs is that for some reason in fluff, Space Wolves are not particularly keen on Jump packs, apparently the chapter as a whole has vertigo unless piloting a huge giant brick.

 

4) Personally I like Intercessors better as campers. Grey Hunters are for rushing your enemy with plasma, melta, or bully other tactical squads with our chainswords.

[CaptainStabby]

As much as I dislike them, you really need the Fenwolves this edition for simple wound count/screening/objectives.

 

I REALLY like the jump pack hammer WGBL for us this edition as well, certainly not the same as the dual Blood Angel hammer bro's, but not the same purpose either. Also I'm a dork for characters with jump packs, always have been.

[Karhedron]

I have found my Wolves still fun and competitive at the club but I suspect tournaments will crank it up to a whole different level. Marines suffer in this edition from being more expensive than hordes but not really elite. They are not as good as they should be for the points but cannot play the numbers game effectively either.

 

Still, Wolves have some great characters (Bjorn and Njal are my go-to HQs these days) and some good units too like Grey Hunters (Marines with extra attacks and extra special weapon slots) and Wulfen (provided you give them a delivery mechanism).

 

If you are willing to soup it up a little, look at where Wolves are strong and where we need a little help. Adding IG CP-farms does not seem worth it to me currently as we have no stratagems to feed. Grey Hunters and Intercessors are solid Troops and make a great core for an army. Long Fangs and Hellblasters both pack a great punch for their points while Wulfen have CC covered. Wolf Guard bikers provide some great mobility and utility but I am wary of building them currently in case they lose options when the Codex comes out.

 

Our biggest weakness in mind is vehicle busting, especially now that giant robots are everywhere. Adding in an allied Shadowsword or Knight Castellan for big-game hunting will not break the bank and will fill a serious weakness in our army. Beyond that, just let your pups get on with what they do best. :)

[TiguriusX]

 

 

3) Only problem with jump packs is that for some reason in fluff, Space Wolves are not particularly keen on Jump packs, apparently the chapter as a whole has vertigo unless piloting a huge giant brick.

 

 

 

I'm currently reading Legacy of the Wulfen (when Fenris is under attack by chaos plot and we almost lose the entire system)

 

There is a section with jump pack usage including a wolf lord (I think it is sven bloodhowl) and his wolf guard plus a blood claw pack

 

He delivers the coup de grace to Infernus the Bloodthirster using his jump pack

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

 

3) Only problem with jump packs is that for some reason in fluff, Space Wolves are not particularly keen on Jump packs, apparently the chapter as a whole has vertigo unless piloting a huge giant brick.

 

 

 

I'm currently reading Legacy of the Wulfen (when Fenris is under attack by chaos plot and we almost lose the entire system)

 

There is a section with jump pack usage including a wolf lord (I think it is sven bloodhowl) and his wolf guard plus a blood claw pack

 

He delivers the coup de grace to Infernus the Bloodthirster using his jump pack

 

 

Yep, with the exception of Sven Bloodhowl's Firehowlers, who is probably the only Wolf Lord and Great Company that favors bikes and jump packs. Must have more bloodclaws than most companies apart from Ragnar, he himself looks relatively young.

 

A real douchebag though, although he died with honor later. I really hated his arrogance in Curse of the Wulfen. DA and SW rivalry aside, he could have handled Sammael (despite the understandable motive of trying to keep the Wulfen from the most secretive chapter of all), much better rather than throwing insults and then abandoning them to a daemon attack to escape with the Wulfen.

[Trevak Dal]

There is a lot of unnecessary team killing and betrayal on the Imperium side of things. Not as often or with the frequency as with chaos, but lots of sillyness.

[Kasper_Hawser]

There is a lot of unnecessary team killing and betrayal on the Imperium side of things. Not as often or with the frequency as with chaos, but lots of sillyness.

 

true, but I consider it somewhat OOC for Space Wolves to do it. Then again, as you say, All Imperium factions are guilty of either team killing or team abandonment. Maybe Space wolves are not as infamous as the Dark Angels abandoning their allies to chase Fallen or Flesh Tearers turning on their allies due to their bloodlust, but Sven abandoning the Ravenwing just stinks like dog poo. And as usual, few Space Wolves bat an eye about it. Ragnar wouldn't have done that willingly or negligently, and he is the youngest among them all.

 

Nice femshep avatar by the way.

 

back to topic, mono-wolves have a REAL uphill battle against soup lists or unholy combinations, but actually by no means COMPLETELY incapable of pulling a win. As mentioned, Long Fangs and Bjorn still pull their weight very well. Just wish Grimnar did.

[Karhedron]

back to topic, mono-wolves have a REAL uphill battle against soup lists or unholy combinations, but actually by no means COMPLETELY incapable of pulling a win. As mentioned, Long Fangs and Bjorn still pull their weight very well. Just wish Grimnar did.

And Grey Hunters are still a contender for most competitive MEQ Troop unit due to the free extra Attack and ability to double down on special weapons. Njal is a very good psyker as well with +1 to Cast, a free reroll to deny each turn, 2 casts, 2 denies, knows 3 powers and has an improved Invulnerable save.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

back to topic, mono-wolves have a REAL uphill battle against soup lists or unholy combinations, but actually by no means COMPLETELY incapable of pulling a win. As mentioned, Long Fangs and Bjorn still pull their weight very well. Just wish Grimnar did.

And Grey Hunters are still a contender for most competitive MEQ Troop unit due to the free extra Attack and ability to double down on special weapons. Njal is a very good psyker as well with +1 to Cast, a free reroll to deny each turn, 2 casts, 2 denies, knows 3 powers and has an improved Invulnerable save.

 

 

Sadly for me, Njal's main problem is the psychic tree not being too impressive, and not much other utillity compared to Tigurius who has can make a unit harder to hit. The other problem is his terminator armour which makes him slow as molasses. But I guess considering he knows 3 powers, might be considered more efficiaent than most RP builds. I just prefer my RPs riding bikes these days.

[Karhedron]

 

Njal is a very good psyker as well with +1 to Cast, a free reroll to deny each turn, 2 casts, 2 denies, knows 3 powers and has an improved Invulnerable save.

 

Sadly for me, Njal's main problem is the psychic tree not being too impressive, and not much other utillity compared to Tigurius who has can make a unit harder to hit. The other problem is his terminator armour which makes him slow as molasses.

 

I normally run Njal in Power armour so his speed is not impeeded. I quite like the SW psychic powers. I tend to run a big chunk of my army as a fairly compact spearhead so Storm Caller can usually benefit several units. With the rising prevalence of Knights and other big LoWs, Tempest's Wrath is look better as debuffing a 500+ point unit is quite handy.

[TiguriusX]

I completely forgot about this FAQ change in the BRB

 

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from one codex to target a unit from another?

A: Yes, so long as the unit the Stratagem is being used on has the appropriate keywords (note that the Stratagems in Codex: Chaos Daemons and Codex: Tyranids are specific exceptions to this, as discussed in the relevant FAQs and Errata). For example, you can use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space Marines on a unit of Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment (from Codex: Death Guard) if your army has both an Alpha Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single Battle-forged army. Also note that the only requirement to have access to Stratagems is that you have a Detachment of the appropriate Faction.

 

 

Basically Space Wolves can use SM stratagems...we just need to take a single detachment from another codex to unlock them first (like vanilla SM)

 

Many of the stratagems only require "adeptus astartes" (which we have)

 

-Honour thy chapter

-Only in death does duty end

-Hellfire

-Flakk

 

Hmmm...maybe a generic battalion for scouts who actually know how to scout is worth it

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

That is an interesting thought TiguriusX. As I don't have the Vanilla dex, do the stratagems for vindicators and predators apply to us then? A buddy let me use the space marine ones for some balance and that vindicators one hits hard if you can get it off.

[TiguriusX]

That is an interesting thought TiguriusX. As I don't have the Vanilla dex, do the stratagems for vindicators and predators apply to us then? A buddy let me use the space marine ones for some balance and that vindicators one hits hard if you can get it off.

linebreaker bombardment and killshot both require <chapter> vehicle

 

i honestly dont know if that means all chapters or the specific chapter for the detachment you used