How to fix the Adeptus Astartes Codex - Will send to GW

[Ishagu]

Marines in a bad place right now. They are struggling in both competitive and casual play, and each codex release widens the gap between them and other armies. The units are over-costed, the strategems are uninspired and ineffective, and we have no impact in the psychic or assault phases. I’ve seen various ideas and suggestions around the forum, but I feel that very few of them would start to really solve the problems. With this in mind, I have begun to list a set of comprehensive changes and amendments to the various rules that should bring us closer in line with the more recent books. I’ve had extensive experience with armies like Dark Eldar, Astra Militarum, Custodes and more recently the new Imperial Knights, and am very much aware of why Marines are falling short and just how much the gap has widened.

 

 

Point Adjustments: (Without wargear)

 

Marines – 11 points

Scouts – 10 points

Primaris Marine – 15 points

Reivers – 15 points

Aggressors – 16 points

Terminators – 16 points (17 for Cataphractii and Assault variants)

Centurions – 30 points

Predators – 65 points

Rhino – 58 points

Razorback – 65 points

Drop Pod – 68 points

Redemptor Dreadnough – 90 points

Repulsor – 160 points

Landraider (all variants) – 190 points

Stormtalon – 90 points

Stormhawk – 80 points

Guilliman - 360 points

 

 

Chapter Tactics:

 

Ultramarines – Unchanged for infantry and Dreads. Vehicles can fire without penalty to their BS if they move half or less of their movement characteristic.

 

Raven Guard – Unchanged for infantry and Dreads, extend hit modifier to apply to vehicles that have remained stationary and are more than 12” away from an enemy unit that is targeting them.

 

Salamanders – Unchanged for infantry and Dreads, now also applies to vehicles. Any character that can take a flamer, melta, combi-flamer or combi-melta can do so as a free upgrade.

 

Iron Hands – 5+ FNP to infantry and Dreadnoughts. Vehicles can regain a wound at the end of each turn on a 5+

 

Black Templars – Re-roll charge distance. Strength increased by 1 on the turn in which a unit has made a successful charge.

 

Imperial Fists – Unchanged for infantry and Dreads. Vehicles are immune to hit modifiers when targeting enemy units but are still subject to movement penalties if applicable

 

 

Psychic powers:

 

Veil of Time – Unchanged

 

Might of Heroes – Now affects a whole unit, not just a single model

 

Psychic Scourge – Drop this power and replace with Warp Time

 

Fury of the Ancients – Drop this power and replace with Psychic Barrier (target a friendly unit and improve save by 1, WC6)

 

Psychic Fortress – now applies to all wounds, not just Mortal

 

Null Zone – change to WC6

 

 

Unit changes:

 

Black Templars – Intercessors in a Black Templar detachment can take a Chainsword in addition to their existing wargear at no additional cost.

 

Landraider – Add the Steel Behemoth rule to this unit’s datasheet. It allows the unit to disengage from combat and still shoot/charge. In addition, it can shoot whilst enemy units are within 1” of this model.

 

Aggressors – Models in Gravis armour have a 2+ save. This should also apply to the Gravis Captain.

 

Redemptor Dreadnought – this model does not suffer a penalty to its BS when moving and firing heavy weapons

 

Razorback – change this unit’s battlefield role from Dedicated Transport to Fast Attack. This prevents the Spam of cheap tanks that scales badly when combined with re-roll auras.

 

Vindicator - Gyro Stabilising - Taken this rule from FW Tanks. It no longer suffers the BS Penalty for moving and shooting. The Siege Shield should be a 10/20 point upgrade that improves the save of the unit to 2+

 

 

Strategems:

 

This is a big one. Possibly the biggest failing of the book are the stratagems. They are so weak when compared to what other armies have access to and are limited to specific unit or require us to take multiple of units that we might not find appealing.

Here is a list of additional stratagems that would help to elevate the performance of the army.

 

Aggressor Protocols – 2 Command Points – a unit of aggressors can use the Fire Storm special rule even if has moved and advanced in the preceding movement phase.

 

Concealed fire – 1 Command Point. An Adeptus Astartes vehicle can fire all weapons as normal even if has used its smoke launchers in the same turn.

 

Trans-human agility – 2 Command points – an Adeptus Astartes unit may declare a charge even if has advanced this turn.

 

Angels of Death – 2 Command points – An Adeptus Astartes infantry unit may shoot twice in the shooting phase. It can also target a different unit when doing so.

 

Machine Spirit target lock – 1 Command Point – An Adeptus Astartes Vehicle may re-roll hit and wound rolls of 1 if it fires all weapons at the same target

 

Defensive Fire – 1 Command point – An Adeptus Astartes unit can hit on a 5 and 6 when firing Overwatch.

 

Sons of Dorn – 1 Command point – an Imperial Fist infantry unit may re-roll all hits and wound rolls of 1 when firing bolter weapons

 

Sigismund’s fury – 2 Command points – a Black Templar infantry unit may disembark from a transport and declare a charge from a transport after the vehicle has moved.

 

 

 

 

I'd love some feedback guys. And some suggestions or things I might have missed. I'll start spamming Games Workshop with this over the next few days lol

 

[Panzer]

Soooo ... basically the same thread Captain Idaho already has open with 12 pages. 

[Ishagu]

Yes, except the changes are more substantial and less restrained. I'm just dropping this here if other forum users want to add anything before I send it to GW. They'll need more nudging than a single e-mail. If you feel the solutions to all the problems the Codex has were in the other topic then you don't need to add anything here. Idaho has already sent his e-mail so that discussion is over as far as I understand.

 

All I can say is, after playing a few games with Dark Eldar you come to realise the gulf that exists between Marines and the newer books. Minor alterations and a few boosts here and there aren't sufficient to bring us in line.

 

Black Templars in particular need some love - their signature vehicle needs to be made better, their units need to get in to combat more reliably and hit with greater strength when they do. I've included stratagems and unit changes that impact them specifically.

 

 

**Edit**

Also, I want to add that 5 people including myself have been involved in putting the codex through it's paces in competitive games using both the ETC and ITC formats, and these amendments make certain play-styles and tactics more viable, as well as making units that haven't been seen in a year playable.

[Panzer]

Well I won't participate in this topic then however let me comment one thing:

 

Any character that can take a flamer, melta, combi-flamer or combi-melta can do so as a free upgrade.

 

Just no. Not the free stuff crap. I'm super glad we left that back in 7th. In a system that's all about balancing things by points giving stuff for free is just utterly stupid.

[Ishagu]

I shall keep note of your feedback.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

At multiple points, you've given vehicles the effect of the IH strat baked in. This devalues that strat tremendously.

[Jolemai]

FWIW point adjustments won't happen unless they get rolled out across the board. Did you take that into account and how do you feel the points adjustments are balanced against everything else?

[domsto]

I would also buff the Bolter somehow. Normal Tactical Marines really have a problem to make their points back in the shooting phase.

S4 guns or T4 units aren't that uncommon in this edition, so the Bolter lacks something that makes it special.

I thing something like "on a wound roll of 6+ the weapon becomes Ap-1" or flat an ap-1 like the Necorn warriors have.

[Sete]

Best of luck.

[Ishagu]

At multiple points, you've given vehicles the effect of the IH strat baked in. This devalues that strat tremendously.

 

By all means please share some additional ideas. I did think about this, but the answer probably lies in the Iron Hands getting additional strats that are equally thematic and effective. Have you seen anything available to other armies that you feel would suit the Iron Hands? I had the idea of Captains mixed with Techmarines but asking for additional units might be too much!

 

FWIW point adjustments won't happen unless they get rolled out across the board. Did you take that into account and how do you feel the points adjustments are balanced against everything else?

 

We actually played some games with BA and don't feel the adjustments would cause a problem (Pitted then against ETC Tau lists as well as Chaos and Knights) We simply brought more vehicles in line with super effective units like the Razorwing Jetfighter and the Armiger Helverin Knights - they have firepower, mobility, durability and low costs. As for the infantry, they need significant reductions as Astartes are generally outnumbered by more efficient choices in other books.

 

 

I would also buff the Bolter somehow. Normal Tactical Marines really have a problem to make their points back in the shooting phase.

S4 guns or T4 units aren't that uncommon in this edition, so the Bolter lacks something that makes it special.

I thing something like "on a wound roll of 6+ the weapon becomes Ap-1" or flat an ap-1 like the Necorn warriors have.

 

Yes, definitely. I'm not sure what changes we could ask for and how that would impact the various Primaris Bolt Rifles that are basically Bolters +1

[Sete]

BT could use deny the witch on a 6+ btw.

At east a modicum of psyker protection.

And cheaper neophytes on crusader squads. (they lose some special rules)

[Panzer]

Dunno, T'au don't have any protection against Psyker either and they don't seem to be weak competetively. Maybe a BT relic/warlord trait to deny the witch would be fluffy and helpful tho.

[Wargamer]

If Primaris are 15 points now, then Veterans are going to need a points drop as well. Not sure how much +1 Attack is worth, but my gut says 13 points for a Veteran (all flavours) is about right based on the other unit prices you've listed.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Its not just that, though, it's also a fluff thing. The only units I feel should have the move and shoot ability are Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts (since they've always had that!). Giving it to Vindicators, to use your example, is where the devaluation and in my mind un-fluffiness come in.

 

The Vindicator has other problems, more pressing problems, than just the heavy weapons penalty. It needs a higher rate of fire for the demolisher cannon, for example, and it should probably be a higher strength than 10. Though I will say that I like the siege shield upgrade.

[Sete]

Tau have a plethora of advantages that BT does not have.

[Ishagu]

Lots of good stuff here already.

I agree on the Veterans. 13 points seems right, remember they have better leadership as well if I remember off the top of my head.

 

BT have that excellent start to Deny on a 4+

They are actually taken as allies in may lists because of it, and I wasn't sure if anything should be added on top of that. I agree that Neophites should be cheaper, however. Possibly 8 points? They are comparable to a Scion, but without the deepstrike.

 

Its not just that, though, it's also a fluff thing. The only units I feel should have the move and shoot ability are Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts (since they've always had that!). Giving it to Vindicators, to use your example, is where the devaluation and in my mind un-fluffiness come in.

The Vindicator has other problems, more pressing problems, than just the heavy weapons penalty. It needs a higher rate of fire for the demolisher cannon, for example, and it should probably be a higher strength than 10. Though I will say that I like the siege shield upgrade.

 

 

Hmmm, I see your point. I used to play Heresy back in 7th and the Vindi was often run with POTMS which made it work quite well. Perhaps the Cannon should have two firing models. a 2D6 hit or something? You're right that they need major updates...

[Captain Idaho]

I wholeheartedly approve of an alternative thread that might take things further than what I believe is most likely to change.

[Ishagu]

Definitely, we need to send as much feedback as possible to GW. I have hope because they do track the army success at tournaments and must be aware of the situation in some way or another.

[MARK0SIAN]

More of a game wide rule than specific to marines but it would help a lot of marine units. Bring back assault vehicles!

 

Models in a land raider, especially a land raider crusader, should be allowed to disembark after it has moved.

[Captain Idaho]

I actually love Aggressor Protocols and Concealed Fire.

 

My advice is to extend Aggressor Protocols to include more than just that unit. Say other units can fire twice if they remain stationary.

[Ishagu]

MARK0SIAN - I mentioned that as a Strat for BT as Harlequins can do some shenanigans like this through Warlord traits.

 

If multiple vehicles are assault vehicles like older editions we're potentially looking at significant changes to the game and meta. I simply want this codex to be more in line with the others.

[MARK0SIAN]

MARK0SIAN - I mentioned that as a Strat for BT as Harlequins can do some shenanigans like this through Warlord traits.

 

If multiple vehicles are assault vehicles like older editions we're potentially looking at significant changes to the game and meta. I simply want this codex to be more in line with the others.

I get what you mean, I just never like having to use a strat just to make a unit do the job it is intended for, but you’re probably right, it would be a major change that they might not be willing to consider :)

[domsto]

Terminators also need some Stat changes. only a Point reduction won't make them good.

They need T5 or 3 Wounds per Model to make them tougher.

In fluff they are supposed to be walking tanks but in the game they mostly don't survive one turn of Shooting.

[CCE1981]

I am a big advocate of giving all Marine Infantry and Bikers with the exception of Characters and Scouts +1 Wound and Attack. I just hate how Basic Marines just aren’t resilient to any small arms fire. This would change your pts values entirely but I think it makes marines feel a lot more like the Champions of Humanity that they are supposed to be. This change would net marines with a lot more wounds without adding additional bodies on the table.

[Schlitzaf]

BT could use deny the witch on a 6+ btw.

At east a modicum of psyker protection.

And cheaper neophytes on crusader squads. (they lose some special rules)

Also can we get something like models using weapons with AP -1 may Attack additional time with that weapon instead of a charge bonus. We aren’t Blood Angels.