Exilyth Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Hi. I started playing back in 3rd edition, stopped playing just before 5th and returned for 7th. Picked Astra Militarum when I returned, but now I'd like to revive my Space Marines from back in 3rd edition. I've got a bunch of tacticals (some with flamers and missile launchers), a Dread, a few Rhinos and one Land Raider from back in the day. Still based on 25mm and painted as some ultramarine successor chapter, but when I rebase them onto 32mm, I might as well give them a new and improved paintjob. I haven't decided on a chapter yet, but looking at chapter tactics, Raven Guard seems to be the most usefull. I'll probably go with a custom paint scheme so I can play different chapters. Looking at 8th edition Codex: Space Marines though, I only recognize about 1/3rd of the units. There's such an overwhelming number of "new" units. Tacticals, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Dreadnought, Land Raider and many other "old" units are pretty much unchanged except for minor stats changes and not so minor points changes. I looked at the codex entries and read around the web. Some of the "new" units are easy to grok, e.g. the hunter/stalker is supposed to be our anti air unit. Captains/Lieutnants/Ancients are buffing stuff. Whirlwind and the techmarine cannon are our indirect artillery units. Scouts are 'cheap' tax or kill characters with snipers I heard that Devastators are pretty strong this edition w/cherub and mixed loadouts (e.g. Las, ML, HB, HB) Bikes are fast but not as strong as they used to be But many other units I'm puzzled about. E.g. Primaris seem to be like normal marines but with 2 wounds and better equipment (and much higher cost, points and money wise). What is each of the different primaris types used for? What is the difference between the different veteran squads and what are they good for? Is the company/chapter champion usefull? Is the honor guard only usefull as ablative wounds for characters? How are the Redemptor Dreadnought and the Contemptor Dreadnought compared to the "normal" dreads? Is the data telemetry stratagem worth it? (the one which makes whirlwinds autohit when a landspeeder is near the target) Are our flyers any good? The new psionic discipline - I've heard good things about might of heros, but what about the other powers? Also: Yay, point cost of tacticals went down 2 points! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Primaris is the new Marine range. Intercessor replaced tacticals with bolter, Reivers are kinda like assault squad, inceptors are more or less short range heavy bolter/ plasma cannon changed to assault, hellblaster are like the special weapon team from Horus Heresy and aggressors short range mass bolter or flamer. Company vet have special weapons and can take wounds instead of a character, vanguard vet have jump packs and selection of melee weapons, sternguard vet have special bolters. Champion and honour guards are rarely played. Contemptor dreadnougt are quite good because they have an invulnerable save, very useful against lascannon and meltas. Landspeeder and whirlwind are not worth it. The three flyers are usable. Null zone is super hard to la d but it can be a game changer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exilyth Posted July 15, 2018 Author Share Posted July 15, 2018 Primaris is the new Marine range. Intercessor replaced tacticals with bolter, Reivers are kinda like assault squad, inceptors are more or less short range heavy bolter/ plasma cannon changed to assault, hellblaster are like the special weapon team from Horus Heresy and aggressors short range mass bolter or flamer. Company vet have special weapons and can take wounds instead of a character, vanguard vet have jump packs and selection of melee weapons, sternguard vet have special bolters. Mhh - sounds like that's a load of units I'll have to take a closer look at. Champion and honour guards are rarely played. I see. Their codex entries did seem a bit lackluster and lacking in synergy. That's some units I can safely ignore then. Contemptor dreadnougt are quite good because they have an invulnerable save, very useful against lascannon and meltas. Interesting - with a Kheres-pattern assaultcannon, it costs as much as a dreadnought with missile laucher and plasmacannon ... wait a moment - a non-ironclad dreadnought CCW costs how much? Wow, meelee dreadnoughts being more expensive points wise than their shooty bethren is a big change compared to older editions. Any info on the Redemptor? Landspeeder and whirlwind are not worth it. Let me guess: not enough durability & firepower for the point cost? The three flyers are usable. Barely useable or "not an autoinclude but pretty good" usable? Null zone is super hard to la(n?)d but it can be a game changer. That is good to know, thank you. Quite usefull information, gives me a lot to think about. Edit: I've been rummaging through storage and found some casualties (among them a devastator with no arms). But I've got a model count now. 21 tacticals w/bolters (+4 marines w/o any weapons), 16 space marines with various equipment (mostly meele weapon + some pistol) which would make them usable as sergeants (and maybe other characters) 7 Devastators - 4 Missile Launchers, 1 heavy bolter, 1 multi melter, 1 armless 5 Marines with special weapons - 2x Plasma, 2x Flamer, 1x Melta 8 assault marines w/jumppacks - 1x 2claws, 1x power sword & bolt pistol, rest w/chainsword & bolt pistol 1 Dreadnought w/missile launcher and plasma cannon 2 Lasbacks 1 Razorback w/heavy bolter 1 Land Raider without weapons (but I think I might have some fitting weapons in my bitz box) 2 Rhinos Quite interesting to see the paintjobs - some of them are painted better than I remembered. I can basically arange them in a line and see how my painting skills improved over time. Too bad I've got no camera. Maybe I'll get a better idea of where to take this army after building an army list, so I'll do that next and report back when I've got a proper detachment thrown together. Looking at the list, I'm a bit short on heavy and special weapons - a box of Devastators would help with heavy weapons, but which kit from the SM line has the most special weapons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Do you have chapter approved? Lots of costs are much lower in it. For example a Primaris Intercessor is only 18 points which makes them more worthwhile, imo, than a regular Tactical marine. (both are overpriced however lol) The codex is very bloated, just to warn you, and there are redundant units or options which aren't worthwhile. Units like the Hunter don't offer enough to be worth consideration for example. There's no point in taking Assault Marines for example when you can take Vanguard veterans instead. In the past you needed Assault Squads for certain detachments and bonuses but that is no longer the case. They simply don't offer enough to be worth their points. The various Dreads are all decent. The Redemptor is a fantastic looking kit but really suffers from the bs penalty when it moves. If it wasn't for thar I'd be singing it's praises. The Contemptor is OK. There is a FW variant of the rules that allows for more exciting weapon configurations. There's some fun stuff for sure, but also some things which should be avoided unless the rules are updated in future. The Raven is a great flyer, but the 2 smaller ones are over costed compared to similar options in other books. Raven is still very useful however, and the firepower is excellent. To summarise, yes there are loads of units but they aren't all useful and a lot of options are redundant and don't see much play. Hopefully the 2nd volume of CA will fix some of these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Remember there is much disagreement over the worth of some units. As an example, I completely reject that Intercessors are better than Tactical Marines. Taking transports out of the equation, the lack of special, combi and heavy weapons really neuter Intercessors. Apart from that I agree with much of what Ishagu has said above. I do love Contemptors though. Their speed is amazing and really catches people out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I have gotten excellent use out of the Hunter and the Storm Talon & Storm Hawk. The Hawk and Stalker in particular are fantastic at chewing up Eldar of varying stripes and Tau battlesuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I would like a Storm Talon for a gunship but right now it is quite expensive for what it does. But I don't think it's broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 It's far too expensive. Look at a Dark Eldar Razorwing - better rules, weapons, invul save and 70+ points lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 You know what doesn't care about 5++ saves on a 4+ armored aircraft? Icarus Stormcannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Yes but the Stalker is just as easily destroyed by the Dark Eldar flyer, and they can have more of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schlitzaf Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Well the prime issue of space marines is the lack of good ‘line’ troops. Line troops are Assault/Tactical Marines, Crusader Squads, Grey Hunters, Chaos Space Marine, and Intercessors. But sense your codex marines, and assuming not Black Templar, your line troops are Assault, Tactical and Intercessors. Assault are ignorable because they suffer from being a troop unit in a Fast Attack Slot. Leaving Intercessors vs Tacticals. The particularly thing to understand is the core difference between the two units. And represent two very different philosophy in army construction. Intercessors are in essence Jack of All Trades but Master of None. Or in other words, Jack of All Trades but Master of None, better than the Master of One. On the tabletop an Intercessor Squad assuming with BoltRifle can effortlessly switch between Anchors (I.e holding Backfield objectives and sniping enemy units with scratch damage), being a ‘line’ (Frontline) Unit, being in the no man land between two deployment zones securing midfield, they can do this due to reasonable (I.e 2 Attack per model and 3 Power Sword Attacks) Melee ability. And finally can shift to fire support. Which acts as support to your literal and metaphorical big guns. Because useful weaponry at range and reasonable capability in Melee. Tacticals in contrast highlight the other reality, Master of One better than Master of None. While Tacticals suffer in that they were designed as the latter despite playing as the former. But Tacticals are best used for semi-specialized roles, in midfield fire support with double Combi-Weaponry or as cheap backfield Heavy Weapons (90 point Lascannons). Or taken as 10 Men with cheap and/or high rate of fire heavy weapons (HvyBolter and GravCannon) alongside double combi where they act as support and holding midfield. While ability to function as a line unit is questionable due to lacking melee attacks they have the durability when 10 men. 5 Man MSU DoubleCombi can not be a line, lacking durability, and close combat ability, being scalpel to delete targets via deployment by Razors or Rhinos. Basically; Intercessors are good all rounders and tactically can fill any role just less good than units strategically designed to do so. But because of their flexibility many prefer that over a tactical squad. Tacticals are specialized units when chosen and can fit any strategically determined role you require. A good list could easily use both. Intercessors are superb units for filling roles and points. I personally believe, 15-20 Tactical Models (either 3 5 Man or 2 10 Man) and two 5 Man Intercessor Squads make one of the best cores of any space marine list. Running round 500-600 points (And adding basic captain/Liu combo to that making the 700-750 points). But the main thing I’ll say is make sure that you have a good core before you go and grab toys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokugawa Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Yes but the Stalker is just as easily destroyed by the Dark Eldar flyer, and they can have more of them. At the cost of only a razorback(5pts cheaper?), you cannot ask for more. Predator, Stalker and Razorback are already the "cost effective" SPG-type units in the book. Other choices like Vindicator or Whirlwind, are just trash... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exilyth Posted July 16, 2018 Author Share Posted July 16, 2018 Do you have chapter approved? Yes. I put post-it notes with the adjusted point costs in my codex so I don't have to flick back and forth in two books. The codex is very bloated, just to warn you, and there are redundant units or options which aren't worthwhile. Units like the Hunter don't offer enough to be worth consideration for example. I noticed, also stuff like chapter ancient vs company ancient: slightly different equipment, +1 morale. Back in 3rd that would have been an upgrade option on the same unit entry. There's no point in taking Assault Marines for example when you can take Vanguard veterans instead. In the past you needed Assault Squads for certain detachments and bonuses but that is no longer the case. They simply don't offer enough to be worth their points. I see, thank you for pointing that out. If I go with vanguard, I'd have to dress up my jump pack troops as veterans but that shouldn't be much of a problem. The various Dreads are all decent. The Redemptor is a fantastic looking kit but really suffers from the bs penalty when it moves. If it wasn't for thar I'd be singing it's praises. The Contemptor is OK. There is a FW variant of the rules that allows for more exciting weapon configurations. I'm just a bit worried about the lack of range on the Contemptor and Redemptor. I think I'll look into the 'classic' dreads for now. Well the prime issue of space marines is the lack of good ‘line’ troops. Line troops are Assault/Tactical Marines, Crusader Squads, Grey Hunters, Chaos Space Marine, and Intercessors. But sense your codex marines, and assuming not Black Templar, your line troops are Assault, Tactical and Intercessors. Assault are ignorable because they suffer from being a troop unit in a Fast Attack Slot. Leaving Intercessors vs Tacticals. The particularly thing to understand is the core difference between the two units. And represent two very different philosophy in army construction. Intercessors are in essence Jack of All Trades but Master of None. Or in other words, Jack of All Trades but Master of None, better than the Master of One. On the tabletop an Intercessor Squad assuming with BoltRifle can effortlessly switch between Anchors (I.e holding Backfield objectives and sniping enemy units with scratch damage), being a ‘line’ (Frontline) Unit, being in the no man land between two deployment zones securing midfield, they can do this due to reasonable (I.e 2 Attack per model and 3 Power Sword Attacks) Melee ability. And finally can shift to fire support. Which acts as support to your literal and metaphorical big guns. Because useful weaponry at range and reasonable capability in Melee. Tacticals in contrast highlight the other reality, Master of One better than Master of None. While Tacticals suffer in that they were designed as the latter despite playing as the former. But Tacticals are best used for semi-specialized roles, in midfield fire support with double Combi-Weaponry or as cheap backfield Heavy Weapons (90 point Lascannons). Or taken as 10 Men with cheap and/or high rate of fire heavy weapons (HvyBolter and GravCannon) alongside double combi where they act as support and holding midfield. While ability to function as a line unit is questionable due to lacking melee attacks they have the durability when 10 men. 5 Man MSU DoubleCombi can not be a line, lacking durability, and close combat ability, being scalpel to delete targets via deployment by Razors or Rhinos. Basically; Intercessors are good all rounders and tactically can fill any role just less good than units strategically designed to do so. But because of their flexibility many prefer that over a tactical squad. Tacticals are specialized units when chosen and can fit any strategically determined role you require. A good list could easily use both. Intercessors are superb units for filling roles and points. I personally believe, 15-20 Tactical Models (either 3 5 Man or 2 10 Man) and two 5 Man Intercessor Squads make one of the best cores of any space marine list. Running round 500-600 points (And adding basic captain/Liu combo to that making the 700-750 points). But the main thing I’ll say is make sure that you have a good core before you go and grab toys. That is a very informative comparision between tacticals and intercessors, thank you. Looking at the list, I'm a bit short on heavy and special weapons - a box of Devastators would help with heavy weapons, but which kit from the SM line has the most special weapons? I looked around on the GW website and found out that tacticals come with all the options now, which is a great change. Sternguard also have abundant weapon options in the kit, but being veterans have more decoration on their weapons. With all that information, I'll have to play around with weapon options and squad sizes some more, but I should be able to post an army list soon. Edit: Army list is up - see http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348937-2000pts-of-codex-marines-reviving-3rd-ed-army/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exilyth Posted July 19, 2018 Author Share Posted July 19, 2018 With my army list mostly finalized for now... Faction: Adeptus Astartes Subfaction: TBD - probably Raven Guard Detachment: Battalion (filled slots - HQ: 2/3, STD: 3/6, ELITE: 2/6, FA: 0/3, HS: 2/3) HQ: Captain*, Power Sword, Combibolter - 84 Pts 1x Lieutnant(s), Power Sword, Combibolter - 70 Pts Standard: Tactical Squad, 5 Marines, power sword sgt - 73 Pts Transport: Razorback, Twin Lascannons - 120 Pts Tactical Squad, 5 Marines, power sword sgt - 73 Pts Transport: Razorback, Twin Lascannons - 120 Pts Tactical Squad, 5 Marines, power sword sgt - 73 Pts Transport: Razorback, Twin Lascannons - 120 Pts Elite: Company Ancient^, power sword - 71 Pts Company Ancient, power sword - 71 Pts Heavy support: Devastators, 5 Marines, Cherub, 2x Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Lascannon - 140 Pts Devastators, 5 Marines, Cherub, 2x Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Lascannon - 140 Pts Detachment: Battalion (filled slots - HQ: 2/3, STD: 3/6, ELITE: 3/6, FA: 0/3, HS: 0/3) HQ: Techmarine, Power Sword, Servoarm, Combibolter - 69 Pts 1x Lieutnant(s), Power Sword, Combibolter - 70 Pts Standard: Tactical Squad, 5 Marines, storm bolter, heavy bolter - 77 Pts Tactical Squad, 5 Marines, storm bolter, heavy bolter - 77 Pts Tactical Squad, 5 Marines, storm bolter, heavy bolter - 77 Pts Elite: Venerable Dreadnought, Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 165 Pts Venerable Dreadnought, Missile Launcher, Twin Lascannon - 165 Pts Venerable Dreadnought, Missile Launcher, heavy plasmacannon - 145 Pts Points (goal): 2000Points (total): 2000 (spend on 48 infantry and 6 vehicle models)Points (left): 0 * = warlord. ^= relic banner ... I went to the FLGS and got myself a start collecting: space marines box and a squad of devastators. What I like about the new kits: + The devastators have a lot of option parts + The tacticals come with a missile launcher and most sergeant options + The venerable dread has enough parts to build assault cannon, twin lascannon and hv plasmacannon arms. Space Marines do look better on 32mm bases. What I don't like: - The venerable dread does not include the bitz required to build a missile launcher arm - There's an error in the instruction manual of the devastator squad: parts 59/90 (left arm bit) in step 2a of the hv bolter marine should be parts 89/90 (part 59 is the left arm of a lascannon devastator) I built 2 devs with heavy bolters and the dread so far. A bunch of tacticals will get the left over weapons from the devastators. I don't think I'll use the multimeltas though. And I'm unsure on the grav cannons. Also, instead of building the assault cannon arm for the dread, I'm building a missile launcher arm for the dread from leftover bitz: I cut the tubes from the leftover arm, turned it upside down and fitted a piece of armour (which would usually go onto the meelee arm) onto the top. Now it looks like a left arm, I'll just have to decide on how to do the missile launcher. I could take the tip of a missile launcher from the dev squad. Or dive into the bitz box, I think I might have a taurox missile launcher left. But before I tackle that and the rest of the models, It'll be a portion of sleep for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 When building Tactical Squads that are intended for mobile operations, my rule of thumb is to always make the heavy weapon match the special weapon selection(s) in terms of range and target profile. The multi melta and grav cannon, therefore, and good matches for plasma Tacticals. The first has the same approximate strength and AP which is good for shooting at vehicles, monsters, and heavy infantry; the second has the same AP value and a high rate of fire that also complements an anti-heavy infantry role. For static operations, the missile launcher, plasma cannon, and lascannon are more appropriate. The heavy bolter, I feel, is effective in either mobile or static warfare due to its combination of range and rate of fire. It is also cheap and can be used for mortal wound generation via stratagem which increases its utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Your army is pretty solid actually (you sure you're coming back new? ;) ). One thing I'd suggest, unless you're playing for theme and narrative, is the transported Tacticals get special weapons and probably a matching Combi weapon also. Regarding the Captains and Lieutenants; Mastercrafted Bolters are more than sufficient for them, especially if you got the Combi weapons in the Tactical squads. For 3pts having D2 and -1 AP is amazing. I've done some serious damage with D2 in the past. Even on vehicles, T7 and less, a Rapid Fire Mastercrafted Bolter can contribute to knocking off wounds. I added a Grav Cannon to my Tacticals and haven't really enjoyed much luck with it. It needs a points decrease in my view but aside from that it's okay at Marines killing. Heavy Bolters for Tacticals are great. 10pts and the statlines works wonders. Not sold on a pair of Company Ancients. Feels like one or none really. A Company Champion would likely do more for you if you're looking for combat power, or just save points for the Combi weapons on the Tacticals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Crimson Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 I think the way you made the tactical with stormbolter and heavy bolter is great, you add a bit of punch without going too expensive. As Idaho said plasma can be good to. I don’t quite like other squads with power swords, they are supposed to run into melee? If you just want screen your tanks scouts and intercessor does it better IMO tactical got big guns but is bad to absorb charges. Dual ancient is too redundant, you need one for the devastators but not a second. If you go on raven guard try to kitbash yourself a Shrike. Even without jump troops, having a chapter master with mobility is a great thing. I would advise to not follow any devastators instructions, grav melta arms are also switched if I recall correctly. The go-to option for devastators are lascannons and heavy bolter. Lascannons are great and heavy bolter hellfire stratagem is not bad. I was a bit disappointed by missile launcher for anti tank, only S8 and ap-2 make me want to have lasers instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exilyth Posted July 20, 2018 Author Share Posted July 20, 2018 So, today I finished building 2 Missile Launcher devs, 2 Plasmacannon devs and 2 Lascannon devs. Took a look around the bitz box, found the taurox missile launcher, just have to decide if I want that or a dev missile launcher tip w/firing missile effect for the dreads missile arm. Tough decision. Your army is pretty solid actually (you sure you're coming back new? ). As I stated in the OP, I played space marines back in 3rd and know a bunch about 8ed meta from playing my astra militarum army. And it's not like I didn't do some research in addition to the advice I got from B&C members. If I had to build a primaris list, I'd have no idea what to take though. Not sold on a pair of Company Ancients. Dual ancient is too redundant, you need one for the devastators but not a second. I'll have to see what I can squeze in when I remove one ancient. Combi + specials on the transported tacticals sounds like a good idea. I would advise to not follow any devastators instructions, grav melta arms are also switched if I recall correctly.The go-to option for devastators are lascannons and heavy bolter. Lascannons are great and heavy bolter hellfire stratagem is not bad. I was a bit disappointed by missile launcher for anti tank, only S8 and ap-2 make me want to have lasers instead. I heard the missile launcher is a good addition against flyers (flak missile stratagem). And with the dreads and lasbacks, I'm not exactly lacking in lascannons. So, I'll put one ancient to rest and post again after adjusting the list some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.