MrDarth151 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 The Emperor's actions must have resulted in trillions of ordinary humans being swatted out of existence without a thought. He's exterminated entire planets by the system-load in absolutely horrific ways to reach his goal. Why would one more persuade him of anything? I view The Emperor of Mankind as an utilitarian. So let me explain how an utilitarian would think. To destroy a trillion lives for a goal worthy enough, and his is just such goal, is a righteous, morally good thing. To destroy a single life just because it is there, with achieving nothing, at all, is to commit an act of true evil. From that point of view, the act of murdering Ollanius is actually one of the greatest sins Horus commits, because it serves no purpose. Ollanius is not a threat to him, like Sanguinius. Ollanius is not a threat to his military efforts, like the other legions and forces of the loyalists. Ollanius is not even an innocent victim killed as an example to cow others into submission. Ollanius Pius dies because he is in the same room as Horus. Death of Ollanius Pius is not special because of deep character relationship between him and the Emperor of Mankind. It is special because it shows the Emperor of Mankind the depths to which Horus has fallen, because there is no point to it. Speaking solely from the perspective of morality: The meaning of Ollanius Pius' death cannot be overstated. It is, without a single doubt, under any and every interpretation of morality in which morality actually exists, an evil act. In that regard, it is something unique. And yes, I think that would matter to the Emperor of Mankind. To play devils advocate, he kills Ollanius Pius because he's an irritant during a duel for the fate of humanity. You're right that Ollanius is utterly beneath him, but to say that that fact makes Horus completely evil is like saying that every child who's killed a fly is completely evil because the fly is no threat and serves no purpose in being killed. That is not entirely correct. Fly has no inherent value. Human beings do. And thus, killing a fly does not require a justification, and killing a human does. And furthermore: It is interesting that you mention the duel in question, as it actually could be argued to strengthen my position. Imagine, for a second, the scene in question. Horus is winning. He is fighting the most powerful opponent he has ever faced in his entire life, arguably the strongest opponent he will ever face. That man is his father, to whom he has deep emotional connection, even if you argue it is a one-sided one (which I don't). Winning means that the galaxy is, arguably, his. It means that rule over humanity and the throne of Terra is within his grasp. And in that pivotal moment, Ollanius Pius enters. He is not a threat. He is insignificant. He cannot do anything to stop Horus. Then, consider: What does Horus do? In this most important moment of his life, he takes his eyes away from the most powerful opponent he has ever faced, from father he had both loved and hated, admired and loathed, and he looks at Ollanius Pius, a man that is, from his perspective, without any meaning. And then, Horus does not simply erase him. He doesn't just kill him. In a split second, he makes a decision and slays him in a cruel, horrific manner. Horus is not a child. A child can be thoughtlessly cruel, because their moral core and their ability to reason are not fully formed. Horus was a general, a statesman, a diplomat, trained and raised to his position by the Emperor of Mankind himself. He possessed many qualities that have been admired by his brothers, and he was loved by them. He is, without a doubt, brilliant. Ollanius Pius is also not a fly. He is a human being, fully formed, capable of moral actions, of thought and possessing inherent qualities that each human has. To justify his destruction, one must have a reason. And Horus does not have one. Virtue Ethics. Consequentialist Ethics. Deontological Ethics. Utilitarianism. Every major school of moral philosophy I know of and of which I have learned during my studies would decry the act as evil. And that, my friend, is impressive. Because some of those theories can be used to defend truly horrific actions. I do not know how intentional it was. Perhaps it wasn't at all. But slaying of Ollanius Pius shows the fall of Horus better than any other action he takes in the course of the Heresy. And that is something to be admired, because of how simple it is, and yet how deep the possible implications are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 From the original lore, replace Terminator with Oll but the notion is still there The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him the tortured earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to seize with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred Marines lie everywhere. Face glowing with internal bloodlight. Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side." The Emperor stands transfixed, trying to force frozen words from his tongue. In the end he can only whisper, "Why?" Mad laughter rings out. "Why? You ask me why? Have all those millennia taught you nothing? Weak fool, your timidity prevented you from binding the forces of Chaos. You shied away from the ultimate power. I have bound it to my will and will lead humanity into the new age. I, Horus, Master of Chaos." The Emperor looks at his former friend and shakes his head. He sees the trap that has ensnared Horus. "No man can master Chaos," he says quietly. "You have deluded yourself. You are the servant, not the master." A look of rage transfigures the Warmaster. He stretches out a hand and a bolt of force leaps forth. The Emperor screams as agony wracks his body. "Feel the true nature of my power then tell me I am deluded," roars Horus, in the voice of an angry god. Beads of sweat stand out on the Emperor's forehead, he steels himself against the pain. "You are deluded," he says. Once again Horus gestures and lances of pure poison sear through the Emperor's veins. "I let you come here, old friend, so that you could witness my triumph. Kneel before me and I will spare you. Acknowledged the new master of mankind." Desperately the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flickers between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual, psychic. Bolts of force flicker as mortal gods clash, balancing the fate of the galaxy on every blow. Runesword and lightning claw ring against each other with a sound like thunder. Energies potent enough to level planets are unleashed. A backhand buffet from Horus knocks the Emperor through a stone bulkhead. The counterstroke tears a supporting column out of the ceiling as the Warmaster ducks. In the warp the Emperor hears the Chaos Powers howl as they feed their pawn more power. The Lord of Humanity stands alone against their massed might and knows that he is losing. Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster. Horus shows no such restraint. A lightning claw cuts the Emperor's armour as if it were cloth, sheers through flesh and bone. The Emperor ripostes with a psychic stroke intended to disrupt the Warmaster's nervous system. Horus laughs as he deflects it. His claws take the Emperor across the throat, opening windpipe and jugular. Another blow severs the tendons on his wrist, causing the sword to drop from nerveless fingers. Insane laughter echoes round the chamber. Horus breaks several ribs with an almost playful punch. A surge of energy seers the Emperor's face, melting the flesh till it runs, bursting an eyeball, setting his hair alight. The Emperor stifles a whimper, wonders how he can be losing. Blackness threatens to engulf him. Horus grasps his wrists, splintering bones. Blood pumps from the Emperor's throat. Horus lifts his foe above his head and brings him down across his knee, breaking his spine. For a second the Emperor knows only darkness then a flare of agony brings him back to consciousness as Horus rips his arm from its socket. The Warmaster howls with bestial triumph. Suddenly the battering stops. Through his good eye the Emperor sees a solitary Terminator has entered the room. The Marine charges towards the Warmaster, stormbolter blazing. Horus looks at him and laughs. For a moment he stands triumphant, allowing the Marine to see what he has done to his Emperor. The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus' face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury. Horus turns his burning gaze on the Terminator and the Marine's flesh flakes away to reveal his skeleton, then even that is gone, reduced to dust. The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance. He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He aims it as Horus, a lance of power destined for the madman's heart. Horus senses the upsurge of energy and turns to face the Emperor, a look of horror on his face. The Emperor lets fly. It strikes the Warmaster. Horus screams as destruction rains down on him, twisting and writhing in titanic agony. He strives frantically to counter the Emperor's deathblow but his struggles become more feeble as the lethal energies play over him. Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they do so sanity returns to the Warmaster. The Emperor sees realisation of the atrocities he has committed flicker across Horus' face. Tears glisten there. Horus is free but the Emperor knows he himself is dying and that the Powers of Chaos may once again possess the Warmaster and he will not be there to stop them. He cannot take that risk. Horus must die. Yet for a second, looking into his old friends face, he hesitates, unable to do the deed. Then he thinks of the slaughter that still goes on outside, may go on forever. Resolve hardens within him. He forces all mercy and compassion from his mind, empties it of all knowledge of friendship and coimraderie and love. His eyes lock with Horus and see understanding there. Then with full cold knowledge of what he is doing the Emperor destroys the Warmaster” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 Exalt ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Y'know...maybe Oll's death before the soul bullet was just a coincidence, wouldn't that be rich. I think BL is going to keep the effect of Oll's death ambiguous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 "i think there’s a difference between making decisions that result in the death of millions from the throne and seeing someone senselessly obliterated in front of you" Do you think that's a meaningful difference for the Emp I think it would make more of a difference for a mortal commander if none of the stuff written so far clicks for you, nothing else i write will. happy to leave it there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I take it you mean stuff written by the posters here? If yes, fair enough... BL's decision to write Oll as something more than a regular soldier obviously does click with me. I think it also fits with MoM's portrayal of the Emp as an inhuman being that isn't roused to emotion or somehow galvanised by the deaths of individual humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 yup. i’m sure you get my meaning, but to clarify, i’m not questioning your comprehension. my feeling is, if someone doesn’t like chocolate cake, you won’t change their mind by force feeding them brownies and i like your interpretation of the emp too, but i always find the exceptions to a character’s consistent behaviour the most interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 The whole perpetual thing was (to me at least) a way of showing that although frequent having other immortal humans is possible and The Emperor isn’t unique in His longevity (power levels yes obviously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 I know I am setting myself up for some disappointment but I really hoped that the introduction of the "perpetuals" idea would have some kind of huge pay off at the end of the HH that revealed something really interesting about the Emperor. No idea what but something new to the lore that just made us all go "oh wow now I understand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 "if someone doesn’t like chocolate cake, you won’t change their mind by force feeding them brownies" Who is feeding who here...gettin lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Perpetuals are shards of the Emperor and Oll represents his humanity (jk) OT: I'm hoping they do something good with Oll that deviates from the idea of him being the guy who gets killed by Horus. I feel that Wolfsbane has weakened some of the heresy finale stuff, unless they give is something we don't expect. I also feel there is more mileage in the perpetual idea going into 40k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 "if someone doesn’t like chocolate cake, you won’t change their mind by force feeding them brownies" Who is feeding who here...gettin lost never mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Well if there’s any perpetuals left still in 40k that were around before the Heresy then that’s 10k years of more mileage (and would make them bleedin’ old too!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Perpetuals are shards of the Emperor and Oll represents his humanity (jk) Actually kidding aside I like that idea. Certainly that the Emperor is more than a single being and that the "person" most assume to be the Emperor is just the main and most powerful manifestation of Him but that He is present in other beings too (extending that further than perpetuals he is arguably also "present" in the Custodes and the Primarchs and the Astartes). I kinda like the idea that each of the perpetuals represents a different aspect of the greater Him and that could actually be in conflict with each other. My old lore is rusty in the extreme but wasn't there once something about the Emperor being the creation of or merging of the shamans or something. If that is right then maybe some broke off again (shards)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 The shaman stuff is original lore but making them shards would be too similar to C’tan. Which would be terribly boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob P Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 The shaman stuff is original lore but making them shards would be too similar to C’tan. Which would be terribly boring. Magnus would be the one that's too similar for me. edit: too similar to what I half-heartedly suggested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 I think it also fits with MoM's portrayal of the Emp as an inhuman being that isn't roused to emotion or somehow galvanised by the deaths of individual humans. And the fact that you can think that is precisely why I think that book portrayal of the Emperor of Mankind is flawed. I'm sure A D-B gets wider range of feedback, but almost every time I see this novel brought up in fandom, is to praise the depiction of Emps as in some way definitive, when A D-B tried to make it ambiguous. If anything, I would have largely preferred if we could get some scenes that go directly against MoM's portrayal of Emps, so that the intention of the novel can be preserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowSwordmaster Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 People want him to be a regular man, but his placement in the fluff before the Heresy series always bug me as lazy writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 There was always the question of how a lowly soldier made it down into the Imperial dungeon and onto that teleporter without anyone present taking issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 Who said he teleported up? He knows the immaterium sidestep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 There was always the question of how a lowly soldier made it down into the Imperial dungeon and onto that teleporter without anyone present taking issue the same way Damon spirited Cyrene off an exploding traitor's warship. He cheated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 My point was that, pre-KNF, that wasn't a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 My point was that, pre-KNF, that wasn't a thing. Correction: Prior to KNF, it wasnt explored. We know WHAT happened, or atleast what happened in one version, we just havent explored the HOW or WHY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 Yeah, that's fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 the emperor gave ollanius a piggy back onboard. see? he isn’t a heartless despot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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