Ollanius Pius

[MrDarth151]

I can’t remember where I saw it but someone quoted that The Emperor didn’t think His injury’s were that bad.

 

Maybe a little bit of biomancy and He could have fixed all the injuries if it wasn’t for having to keep the webway closed by sitting on the Throne.

 

Yeah, in comparison to actually being already dead.

 

What you are talking about is a bit from Collected Visions, and it is pretty explicit in saying that Emps body is beyond fixing.

[Khornflakes]

this is a very interesting discussion - one thing which popped into my head when reading this is around Pius' faith. apologies if i missed where this was already discussed.

 

He was around at the time of the Argo - which is (mumble) years before Christianity - but wears a crucifix and presumably has done for a loooong, long time. I forget which book this was mentioned.

 

Given the whole kerfuffle that the Big E kicked off around religion, (fun fact - the church in the 'Last Church' is apparently set on Holy Island in the UK which is near where i grew up)  there must been some reason why Pius stuck around with it for that long. 

[Mellow]

Faith in humanity perhaps? Does he believe in gods or has he just been around so long that he knows there are gods and emotions feed them. I guess even in his case his worship is feeding chaos to an extent.

 

Does all worship for the god Emperor in 40k feed chaos or is it all going to a god of the Emperor in the Warp somewhere? I mean even the Tau got a Chaos god of the greater good.

[Khornflakes]

Faith in Humanity - interesting, never considered that. 

 

Understandable that he may believe in gods (plural) given the amount of time he's been around but to retain the symbol that relates to just one god and one that was starting to be worshipped 40k+years ago...

 

My opinion is that, given the recent interpretations of the Emperor, that it could all result in being part of his BIG PLAN to become a god on par with the chaos one. take the battering fro Horus, become interred in the Throne and be feed a tasty morsel of deep fried psykers on a daily basis. 

 

The 'old' interpretation is the result is 10k years of Imperium propaganda - the Emperor died for your sins.

[mc warhammer]

maybe by that time, the crucifix has come to mean something different to pius (as mellow suggests). like how people wear ankh these days with no proper idea of its history 

[Carach]

yeah, i don't really see how obliterating a perpetual makes horus more dangerous after he's slaughtered his way to terra's gates and killed your poster boy primarch. unless horus is now sporting a sweet bad ass leather jacket, i don't see how the perception of his  threat level increases

 

it feels like it needs to be a more subtle, character epiphany

 

I think perhaps what we will have is going back to Outcast Dead with the whole chess games and the multiple conversations that have been had throughout by emp, sigilite, alpharius and omegon etc etc - namely a 'third option' whereby Emp - as he is getting beaten down by the *gods*, in the form of Horus (i assume such a titanic fight, perhaps the greatest in all history, would make the veil so thin and the gods so focused at this potential moment of triumph that they will be present in some form) - realises he is gonna have to take the eternal suffering hit if mankind is to have a chance at survival down the line. So finds some inner strength to annihilate Horus at the last, with things unfolding as they do in the old lore (feeling the gods retreat from Horus' person to escape destruction themselves etc)  and then the mournful but asap procession to get him interred upon the throne (possibly having some kind of last communion with Ol' Siggie to let him know "the time must be now or the daemons still in the webway will break through presently")

[Kinstryfe]

this is a very interesting discussion - one thing which popped into my head when reading this is around Pius' faith. apologies if i missed where this was already discussed.

 

He was around at the time of the Argo - which is (mumble) years before Christianity - but wears a crucifix and presumably has done for a loooong, long time. I forget which book this was mentioned.

 

Given the whole kerfuffle that the Big E kicked off around religion, (fun fact - the church in the 'Last Church' is apparently set on Holy Island in the UK which is near where i grew up)  there must been some reason why Pius stuck around with it for that long.

 

There could be quite a few reasons he still wears it. It could have some sort of great sentimental value to him, or remind him of old Earth. In the 40k setting faith is powerful and can create gods, so maybe there was something to his religion over the millennia that was legitimately true in its own way. Maybe he literally was Jesus or an apostle or another figure from his religion and wears it as a reminder of that phase. It could even just be an act of subtle rebellion. Remember that Terra did not unite behind The Emperor peacefully, so maybe he just wears it as a reminder of sorts of the real truths versus the Imperial Truth. Hopefully they'll touch on it some more, because I do love their interpretations of how current things would be viewed all those millennia away.

[Karhedron]

Does all worship for the god Emperor in 40k feed chaos or is it all going to a god of the Emperor in the Warp somewhere? I mean even the Tau got a Chaos god of the greater good.

That has always been left ambiguous. On a similar note, it has never been made clear what happens to positive emotions in the Warp. What entities do concepts such as nobility, courage, self-sacrifice and platonic love feed?

 

In freudian terms, if the Warp is a reflection of humanity's collective Id and the real universe the Ego, where is the super-ego?

 

Personally, this is why I rather liked the old Starchild fluff. The notion that the Emperor's love and humanity that he jettisoned into the Warp during his fight with Horus had survived and became the core around which a new "positive" God was growing.

 

The Starchild fluff was seemingly written off in 3rd edition as a Tzeentch plot (or was Tzeentch's plot actually to discredit the Starchild?) as the idea of some real hope undermined the GrimDark setting. However we have seen GW allowing some chinks in for various races such as the resurrection of Guilliman and the awakening of Ynnead. Maybe somewhere down the line they will dust off the Starchild once more.

[DukeLeto69]

In my head cannon the God Emperor most definitely IS a God and is part of the pantheon. The Gods exist because of the human emotions and actions that feed them and the worship of them. Ergo if the God Emperor is worshipped by quadrillions of humans then he too must have power in the warp to exist as a "God".

 

Equally if suddenly there was no war or fighting or killing or murder etc then Khorne would lose power or cease to exist right?

 

I kind of like the idea that the eight pointed star represents that there are actually eight Gods in the pantheon. We know of four (considered "evil" though surely that depends on your viewpoint) so who are the other four? Could they be "good" and reflect positive emotions and actions? Could the God Emperor be one of those?

 

Maybe that starts to head into noble bright territory rather than grim dark but I kinda like that notion of there being other gods.

[Knockagh]

The starchild fluff was great creative thinking. Has it been abandoned completely? I thought it would form part of the final battle books?

[Rob P]

In my head cannon the God Emperor most definitely IS a God and is part of the pantheon. The Gods exist because of the human emotions and actions that feed them and the worship of them. Ergo if the God Emperor is worshipped by quadrillions of humans then he too must have power in the warp to exist as a "God".

 

 

I've always liked this, but I do have a few contradictory thoughts on it.

 

For example, is the Emperor on the golden throne - the physical being - and any worship generated entity in the warp the same thing?

 

Is the warp god Emperor prevented from ascending because he is trapped in a physical husk on the golden throne? - think Dogma

 

In a very Orky way, is the Emperor alive on the throne because he is willed alive by the belief he is alive or the gesture that a 1000 psykers keeps him alive?

 

If a rumour spread that the Emperor was dead - would the physical body die and/or would a manifestation occur in the warp?

 

Does the Emperor have a sufficiently raw and unique worship source to become a god or a powerful god?

[DukeLeto69]

 

In my head cannon the God Emperor most definitely IS a God and is part of the pantheon. The Gods exist because of the human emotions and actions that feed them and the worship of them. Ergo if the God Emperor is worshipped by quadrillions of humans then he too must have power in the warp to exist as a "God".

 

I've always liked this, but I do have a few contradictory thoughts on it.

 

For example, is the Emperor on the golden throne - the physical being - and any worship generated entity in the warp the same thing?

 

Is the warp god Emperor prevented from ascending because he is trapped in a physical husk on the golden throne? - think Dogma

 

In a very Orky way, is the Emperor alive on the throne because he is willed alive by the belief he is alive or the gesture that a 1000 psykers keeps him alive?

 

If a rumour spread that the Emperor was dead - would the physical body die and/or would a manifestation occur in the warp?

 

Does the Emperor have a sufficiently raw and unique worship source to become a god or a powerful god?

Yeah I also have contradictory thoughts on this...

 

1. I kind of like the idea that the God Emperor's true apotheosis is being prevented because of his body being kept alive in the material universe - so he has only managed partial apotheosis.

 

2. However, I also like the idea that the God Emperor was prescient and everything has actually proceeded much according to plan and that the denial of his divinity (bit Life of Brian this) was something of a ruse as he knew he required worship to enable apotheosis hence sacrificing himself for humanity (a bit Jesus like).

 

3. I also like the idea that the GE is very aware of what is happening in the material universe and on rare occasions interferes or guides through avatars (such as the Solar Priest in ADB's Talon of Horus) but for the most part He is more fully occupied with the war in the warp and the great game with the pantheon.

 

Then again I always liked Ian Watson's take on the GE in the first Draco book, a multi-faceted personality that can use a miniscule amount of His immense power to converse (albeit in a slightly abstract way) with a specific person.

[Mellow]

The whole split personality thing was probably a good way of thinking about how a gestalt being created by multiple souls would multitask and manage multiple tasks. I liked it. I am also hoping that the final book shows some hint that the god Emperor is a real thing in the Warp.

 

Of course fighting chaos would have been easier if the Emperor had just made Prozium mandatory.

[Karhedron]

The starchild fluff was great creative thinking. Has it been abandoned completely? I thought it would form part of the final battle books?

Hard to tell if it has been abandoned really. In a sense, any old fluff is still in existence waiting in case GWR ever wants to pick it up and do something with it.

 

As to whether it is still canon or not is hard to tell. The 3rd edition codex painted it as a Tzeentch inspired cult. Then again, maybe Tzeentch is deliberately trying to undermine the cult of the Starchild in order to prevent the Starchild being born.

 

The idea of the Starchild was first introduced in the "Realm of Chaos" book back in 1st edition. Ian Watson later expanded on it in his Inquisition War trilogy. The Novels were republished in 2004 so that is the last time any fluff on the Starchild appeared in print. Since it has not been actively contradicted, I guess it is still current.

 

In my head-canon, the Perpeuals in the HH novels are really the Sensei, even if they don't know it.

[b1soul]

Malcador is a Perpetual, right?

[bluntblade]

No indication of that. He's insanely old, unlike Oll or John

[Mellow]

Isn’t Malcador meant to be from ancient Egypt or something?

[DukeLeto69]

It would totally make sense if Malcador turned out to be a Perpetual.

[b1soul]

I think the figure given was 6,700 years old by the HH...so Malcador was born during the late DAoT. His bio would be very interesting.

[Knockagh]

I would absolutely love Gav Thorpe to do a book on the history of the sigillite Order. Not many model sales admittedly would come from it but it would be awesome

[Mellow]

You’d ... love ... Thorpe to write another Novel?

 

That statement doesn’t compute for me.

 

I do agree somewhat. Some more information on them would be good but the whole history would be too much I feel.

[Knockagh]

Im a proud ‘Thorpe head’. I’ve even forgiven him for the pronoun fiasco.

 

The sigillite order will have to be dealt with at some stage. If, at some stage, they cover the unification wars and its political aftermath Malcador will be a central character and surely his background will need fleshed out.

Terran politics haven’t really been much of a feature in the Heresy sadly as it focused on the martial campaign but i hope we get more of it in future history stories. Stories that focus purely on the military loose quite a bit by playing down the importance of culture and political manoeuvring.

[Kinstryfe]

 

Does all worship for the god Emperor in 40k feed chaos or is it all going to a god of the Emperor in the Warp somewhere? I mean even the Tau got a Chaos god of the greater good.

That has always been left ambiguous. On a similar note, it has never been made clear what happens to positive emotions in the Warp. What entities do concepts such as nobility, courage, self-sacrifice and platonic love feed?In freudian terms, if the Warp is a reflection of humanity's collective Id and the real universe the Ego, where is the super-ego?Personally, this is why I rather liked the old Starchild fluff. The notion that the Emperor's love and humanity that he jettisoned into the Warp during his fight with Horus had survived and became the core around which a new "positive" God was growing.The Starchild fluff was seemingly written off in 3rd edition as a Tzeentch plot (or was Tzeentch's plot actually to discredit the Starchild?) as the idea of some real hope undermined the GrimDark setting. However we have seen GW allowing some chinks in for various races such as the resurrection of Guilliman and the awakening of Ynnead. Maybe somewhere down the line they will dust off the Starchild once more.

40K seems to take a very negative approach to the whole emotional spectrum, and it's likely that in that vein emotions we consider positive would likely be part of the chaos gods in many cases, they'd just be overwhelmed by the negative parts. Courage in battle likely feeds Khorne, or at least a minor aspect of Khorne. Courage to stand up for idealism may feed Tzeentch, or courage to overcome those impulses holding you back from experience may feed a part of Slaanesh. Most other emotions could have a similar reflection. Since I'm pretty sure canon is that there are tons of minor warp powers, it's also possible that there is a general benevolent minor good of love, with aspects that veer into all the larger powers depending on the nuances. Worshipping The Emperor gives power to the warp entity that would be, but worshipping The Emperor as a god of war would also feed Khorne, as a god of salvation would feed Tzeentch, and so on. Not nearly as much, and it may be that certain individuals are effectively "marked" by this warp entity to lay claim to all or some of their warp juju, but pretty much everything involving emotion will feed some warp entity or another to some degree.

 

I do think that, eventually, we'll see some movement on the Emperor as a god front. It may take another eight editions, but it's been sloooowly moving forward.

[Mellow]

I agree that is seems overly negative to have all emotion feed only chaos. But then how do the Orks have their Gods? How do the Eldar have theirs? There must be some room for a star child type entity. I believe even if they had the Emperor resurrect somehow the star child may still be around (unless the two merged).

 

I’d have it so if the Emperor came back he’d still be stuck in the dungeon either doing “his great works” hidden behind psychic wards or on the throne but able to communicate.

 

 

Also. I have figured out Malcador. He’s definitely a perpetual. But he’s Benjamin Button. So he’s perpetually old. Lol.

[Karhedron]

I’d have it so if the Emperor came back he’d still be stuck in the dungeon either doing “his great works” hidden behind psychic wards or on the throne but able to communicate.

That would hardly make a difference since we already know he can communicate psychically if he wants/needs to. He spoke to Guilliman so him being virtually a corpse does not seem a problem from a setting PoV. Obviously it is a nasty situation for him but that just fits in as part of the GrimDark^TM setting.