HH 53: Titan Death by Guy Haley

[Roomsky]

 

 

It states in Visions of Heresy that Horus had the power of all Chaos gods being poured into him as I recall, and after a great confrontation, when they sensed Horus' downfall, they abandoned him/fled his body.

 

That always suggested to me though that the Master of Mankind at full effort is not far removed from a Chaos God at all.

 

 

Allow me to use an analogy for how I always viewed that:

 

Horus was at that point basically a daemonic sock puppet, rather bloated due to having the four gods' arms wedged elbow-deep up his arse. This was their way into realspace as it were, but by investing so much of their strength into a mortal vessel, they took the risk of being vulnerable to the material as well as the immaterial. Of course, they expected to he'd stomp big E, but when the fight took a turn against them they realized that Horus getting nuked would take everything in the sock puppet with it. In human terms, sticking around probably wouldn't kill them, but could very well take off most of their arms. At best they would need to heal, at worst they would be made permanently weaker for it. So they all pulled out and left the husk behind. Not necessarely an indicator the Emperor could go toe-to-toe with them, but rather they had put themselves in a vulnerable position.

 

And its an interpretation I stick by, btw. However more lovecraftian and unknowable the Chaos Gods have become in recent years (as opposed to the days of basically being really, really big daemons), the events are much more tragic when killing Horus outright may have given the Emperor a legitimate victory over Chaos. By taking that agency in the material realm, they traded a bit of their invincibility, so there was actually something to be gained in an Imperial victory. The tragedy is of course that the Emperor's compassion for his son allowed them to escape, and denying that one, real blow he could have dealt. As much as Horus has become "the sacrificed king," if the Gods just wanted to use him as a distraction to end the Webway project, they would have left him to rot after that was accomplished. It seems fitting to me that they're petty enough to do the stupid thing and try and take the Emperor out even after that safe victory. They do tend to be self-destructive after all, and if "just as planned" is a descriptor for Chaos, its nature as Chaos should also be defined by "overextending to the point of stupidity."

[Marshal Rohr]

I’m in the camp that the Emperor cannot challenge the Gods in the warp, but can in reality where they are weak. If the warp and the material universe are two sides reflected off of each other, it makes sense the Emperor or C’Tan or any kind of non-warp entity could have power over them here, but that power eroded as the warp seeps into reality and lines between them are blurred. So the Chaos Gods at their full material world power and the emperor at his full power fighting above Terra is a stalemate as neither reality nor unreality are dominant.

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

 

 

It states in Visions of Heresy that Horus had the power of all Chaos gods being poured into him as I recall, and after a great confrontation, when they sensed Horus' downfall, they abandoned him/fled his body.

 

That always suggested to me though that the Master of Mankind at full effort is not far removed from a Chaos God at all.

 

Allow me to use an analogy for how I always viewed that:

 

Horus was at that point basically a daemonic sock puppet, rather bloated due to having the four gods' arms wedged elbow-deep up his arse. This was their way into realspace as it were, but by investing so much of their strength into a mortal vessel, they took the risk of being vulnerable to the material as well as the immaterial. Of course, they expected to he'd stomp big E, but when the fight took a turn against them they realized that Horus getting nuked would take everything in the sock puppet with it. In human terms, sticking around probably wouldn't kill them, but could very well take off most of their arms. At best they would need to heal, at worst they would be made permanently weaker for it. So they all pulled out and left the husk behind. Not necessarely an indicator the Emperor could go toe-to-toe with them, but rather they had put themselves in a vulnerable position.

 

And its an interpretation I stick by, btw. However more lovecraftian and unknowable the Chaos Gods have become in recent years (as opposed to the days of basically being really, really big daemons), the events are much more tragic when killing Horus outright may have given the Emperor a legitimate victory over Chaos. By taking that agency in the material realm, they traded a bit of their invincibility, so there was actually something to be gained in an Imperial victory. The tragedy is of course that the Emperor's compassion for his son allowed them to escape, and denying that one, real blow he could have dealt. As much as Horus has become "the sacrificed king," if the Gods just wanted to use him as a distraction to end the Webway project, they would have left him to rot after that was accomplished. It seems fitting to me that they're petty enough to do the stupid thing and try and take the Emperor out even after that safe victory. They do tend to be self-destructive after all, and if "just as planned" is a descriptor for Chaos, its nature as Chaos should also be defined by "overextending to the point of stupidity."

Your take on it is pretty good, imo. I like it about as much as I like the Trading Places interpretation that the chaos gods basically bet $1 to see if they get Horus to turn against his dad. The entire human and race and much of the galaxy a smoldering whimpering mess as a side effect? Oh well...

[mc warhammer]

the power the emp has is at least somewhat waspish right? whereas c’tan are all materiel realm?

[Roomsky]

the power the emp has is at least somewhat waspish right? whereas c’tan are all materiel realm?

 

 

Oh, very warpish, he is an enormous psychic beacon. I'd say he's a ludicrously powerful sorceror who happens to like the trappings of a warrior, its all warp shenanigans. The Chaos Gods possessing Horus just happen to put them in arms' reach. Big E's daemon-deleting sword isn't much good against the Chaos Gods as nebulous, impossible to comprehend entities, but when they happen to be hiding in the big bald guy across the room, well...

[bluntblade]

"up to the elbow..." Roomsky, you're a poet

[Taliesin]

 

 

 

It states in Visions of Heresy that Horus had the power of all Chaos gods being poured into him as I recall, and after a great confrontation, when they sensed Horus' downfall, they abandoned him/fled his body.

 

That always suggested to me though that the Master of Mankind at full effort is not far removed from a Chaos God at all.

 

 

Allow me to use an analogy for how I always viewed that:

 

Horus was at that point basically a daemonic sock puppet, rather bloated due to having the four gods' arms wedged elbow-deep up his arse. This was their way into realspace as it were, but by investing so much of their strength into a mortal vessel, they took the risk of being vulnerable to the material as well as the immaterial. Of course, they expected to he'd stomp big E, but when the fight took a turn against them they realized that Horus getting nuked would take everything in the sock puppet with it. In human terms, sticking around probably wouldn't kill them, but could very well take off most of their arms. At best they would need to heal, at worst they would be made permanently weaker for it. So they all pulled out and left the husk behind. Not necessarely an indicator the Emperor could go toe-to-toe with them, but rather they had put themselves in a vulnerable position.

 

And its an interpretation I stick by, btw. 

 

And so do I, this is perfectly in line with how I see it. I do deduce from that that the Emperor on his own is not far removed from a single Chaos God ( if at all).

Meeting him in realspace would be to his advantage, however on the other hand we are also told the power of all 4 Chaos Gods is being channeled through Horus at that time.

 

I’m in the camp that the Emperor cannot challenge the Gods in the warp, but can in reality where they are weak. If the warp and the material universe are two sides reflected off of each other, it makes sense the Emperor or C’Tan or any kind of non-warp entity could have power over them here, but that power eroded as the warp seeps into reality and lines between them are blurred.

 

Yup, agree with this. 4 Chaos Gods are pouring their power into Horus, we know it massively amplifies his power from books leading to the Siege, and by the time he meets the Emperor the infusion of power will be at its most significant. Still, whatever they are pouring into him is not such that it would easily overwhelm the Emperor himself, and you have to think that also has to do with what they are able to manifest the outside of the Immaterium, in realspace. That is where the Emperor could muster more of his own power, presumably.

[carlisimo]

There’s a scene in Brotherhood of the Storm in which a young Yesugei is put on a mountain as part of a rite that Chogorians with psychic potential go through. He is visited in his dreams by avatars of the four Chaos gods, who tempt him to drink out of a cup… and by the Emperor. In that story, the Emperor comes across as being fully equivalent to the four in power.

 

I always recommend that novella, and that scene makes it worthwhile even if you have no interest in the Scars.

 

He came from the opposite direction… and I knew, without knowing how, that He had travelled from a long, long way away.

(...)

Other than [not commanding him to drink from the cup], He was like the four beast-figures. There was some relationship between them, something I could sense but did not understand. The Four were scared of Him.

(...)

There was no warmth in [the Emperor’s] light; just brilliance. He was like a cold sun.

When His light was taken away, though, I felt the loss of it.

I suspect the Emperor retained a very significant portion of his strength (when it comes to directly fighting Chaos within the Warp) after being interred on the Golden Throne, hence the Astronomicon and the limited number of daemon incursions (“limited” compared to during Old Night).

 

But he might not be so good at the hand-to-hand stuff, whether against Drach’nyen or gods-infused Horus. Still nearly the best in the galaxy and the Warp underneath it, but not his speciality.

[Roomsky]

Horus Heresy 53: Titandeath

Ah, Guy Haley, we meet again.

 

Titandeath brings us the exciting story a bunch of people we don’t care about fighting for their lives as interesting things and set-pieces unfold around them.  It is directed by Gareth Edwards and stars Felicity Jones as Jyn Erso.

 

Okay, so it’s not quite like Rogue One, but it seems to have caught the same bug. Like Rogue One, it manages to just stand above its tremendous shortcomings by giving the reader enough unique action, subject matter, and concepts to be worth wading through bland character work and a few boring and often pointless events.

 

Legio Solario

 

The Imperial Hunters, the novel’s main characters, are headed by Mohana Mankata Vi (The Great Mother), and are a legio populated entirely by female pilots. Beneath Mohana in the hierarchy is her daughter, Esha, and everyone else whose names I cannot remember, because they all have no personality traits. Despite being the focus of the book, Mohana, Esha, and Esha's daughter are largely interchangeable personality wise, despite occupying hugely divergent roles in-universe.  A character needs to be more than their role in the story, but Haley doesn’t seem interested in giving them much of a personality beyond “unaugmented pilots of titans.”

 

I can mostly excuse all this because the set dressing and concepts brought forward by these characters are mostly pretty cool. I always love seeing an AdMech novel with the appropriate amount of ritual one might expect from a cult of toaster-:cussers. The dissenting opinions of what it means to venerate the machine, and the effort each character goes into embodying their beliefs on the subject are all very interesting.

 

The all-woman fighting force is mostly pretty decent in its execution. For a series that seems near-obsessed with being totally sexless, having a major conflict within the story revolve around a tryst between princeps (and the resulting child) is pretty bold of Haley, and much appreciated. Bonus points for describing the discomfort of attempting to pilot a giant mecha while pregnant. Minus points for a flirting scene so fantastically inept that made me question if Haley is even a human being. Further minus points for the line about them being a lesbian sisterhood, which wouldn’t be an issue if anywhere else in this 54 book homoerotic soap opera in space had even hinted at gay fraternities. As is, it comes across as fetish fuel rather than an attempt to develop their legio culture.

 

Legio Vulpa

 

The Death Stalkers and their one character of significance, Terent Haartek, are presented as wholly unlikable but not quite evil – a tough balance to strike that I think Haley pulled off well. They prioritize martial pride and are egalitarian to an obsessive degree, but they’re hardly sadistic and their eventual turn to the use of Daemon-Titans is a decision made out of desperation rather than hunger for power. All around good stuff, though I think the same points could have been covered in a more economic page count, they are after all unlikable :cusss.

 

Again the big strength here is the details: their shared history with Legio Solario, their outlook and unique views of titan crews, and a disdain for cosmetic wealth all go a long way to make them feel well-realized, if in a bit of a textbook sort of way.

 

The Rest

 

Detractors of David Annandale will be pleased to learn that Sanguinius` character development in Ruinstorm has been quietly smothered by Haley’s soft but powerful hands. He’s back to being a brooding defeatist obsessed with his own death, a take I’ve never been especially for or against. His decapitation of a titan towards the end of the book was cool, but I hear it was taken primarily from a Forgeworld Black Book.

 

The Dark AdMech in the book is fun, again for the little glimpses we get into how the faction operates. We get this character through a few very divergent POVs, and he’s entertainingly creepy in all of them, each time peddling a different brand of heresy. I especially appreciated how important he presents himself as, being an immediate subordinate of an immediate subordinate of Kelbor-Hal. I could have done with even a few more degrees of separation, but it does convey the scale of the forces at work well enough as is.

 

The P Words

 

The plot manages to be kind of bloated and kind of empty all at the same time. There’s a point where you need to dial back the giant robots hitting each other and dial up the reasons to care about the people inside them, frothing fandom be damned. That said, even with Sanguinius` presence there’s a wonderful amount of restraint here with astartes forces, shown at best as henchmen throughout. I wish we had gotten (and perhaps will get) more stories from a human perspective out of the Heresy, they hardly need to be the majority to fill in the cracks of varied perspective.

 

The last section of the book (the actual “Titandeath”) was basically a home run start to finish. Haley hits his stride with titan combat descriptors, and brings his a-game throughout. The characters you can actually remember finally come head to head, the surrounding environs are given enough attention in their devastation to communicate the scale of the god engines, and the Astropathic Fortress they’re operating in the shadow of is very cool. The character work also takes a step up here, to a level I wish was shared by everything else.

 

Haley’s prose still isn’t amazing, but AdMech subject matter tends to force him to be a little more creative. Not a difficult read at all.

 

In Summation

 

I like so much of this book and came very close to skimming the rest. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again that Haley’s peak doesn’t come out of this ludicrous schedule he imposes on himself, and I wish he’d slow down just a smidge to tighten up everything he puts out. This is a book of awesome ideas, world building, and details that make the setting come alive. Those who occupy the setting are barely given attention in the meantime, and the book definitely suffers for it. Worth a read if you like the subject matter, but don’t expect a masterpiece.

 

TL:DR – It Was Decent

ANR: 6 / 10 - Wolfsbane was a better story but was also more annoying

[Scribe]

More confirmation that he treated with them, and stole some of their power. ;)

[Zhiv]

I had a lot to say about the book.  Then I read what Roomsky said and he pretty much nailed it all.  Especially the minus points. 

[Mellow]

I managed to finish this finally. I have to be one of the odd ones out but I found reading this a chore. It dragged for most of the first third (for me) of the book and felt like repeat episodes of some kind of Titan soap opera.

 

I’m also still no closer to knowing what suddenly injured Horus which was the starting point of the previous HH novel.

 

A dull 4 out of 10 from me.

[Robbienw]

It was the wound Russ had done him with the special emperor made spear in Wolfsbane. It re-opened because Horus hasn’t fully given himself over to chaos and still had doubts going on after being wounded by the special spear.

[Tymell]

I finished this one today and thoroughly enjoyed it. Everything with the Titan Legios and the Dark (or New) Mechanicum was great. I loved the rivalry and relationship built up between the main princeps protagonist and antagonist characters, and all the scenes of the Great Mother built her up wonderfully for me, I was totally hooked with her.

 

I also felt to me like it heralded back to some of the earlier books in the series in its focus. It seems to have become the norm in the latter part of the Heresy series' lifespan for novels to split their narrative between two or more main threads, whereas earlier books tended to focus on one thing. I'm not saying either approach is inherently better, but it did feel very refreshing to have a book that didn't jump between two different stories every chapter. There were some that showed other perspectives, but it always felt consistently focused on the Legio Solaria to me.

 

Mohana, Esha, Harrtek, Protos, I loved reading about all of them, as well as all the details of how the Legios/Mechanicum function.

 

I do have two complaints, and I think they're the only things holding it back from being among my very favourites of the series:

 

1.) As others have said, Sanguinius is very much focused on his impending doom, etc. I'd say it's not the worst example of this, since he is at least -doing- something rather than just constantly moping and brooding. But it's still his primary defining characteristic.

 

2.) The ending feels like it could've been a bit better.

I still enjoyed it well enough: Mohana was given a great sending off, Harrtek's fate inside the Chaos titan was deliciously dark, and there were certainly plenty of scenes highlighting the epicly destructive scope of this conflict. But it did feel that a lot of good work was done building the relationship and history between Esha and Harrtek, only for it to be resolved very abruptly, without much of a real conflict between them. I would've liked a bit more of that.

 

Still, I had a great time reading this, and felt it (for the most part) did its job very well.

 

8/10

[Mellow]

The name must have come from Disney’s Moana for inspiration.

[Indefragable]

Oh boy that BA fanboy Indy is ranting again ...

 

Sanguinius has been less comfortable with himself due to his visions than Konrad Curze.

To be fair, the Night Haunter’s visions broke him, but that allowed him to come to terms with it and move on (as a traitor). Sanguinius has been in a funk over his visions ever since Signus, and it’s not what we expected. I’m ready for him to be put out of his misery.

 

Frater, your words cut me as deep as the Talon of Horus did Sanguinius.

 

...that's not against you, but rather against the "situation" that has brought you to feel that way. Because I think that's how the entire readership feels in general. Nothing has sunk my interest in both this outing and the HH/Siege of Terra series quite as much as your words have.

 

Ever since Horus Rising I've been trying to see how Sanguinius/IX further factor into the story at large. And outside of Fear to Tread and Ruinstorm (and by the fandom's account, even those are debatable), we've had few anecdotes really worthy of telling. There were a few cool moments here and there....but I picked up Pharos mainly for the 30sec of screen time Sanguinius/IX had....and then I did Angels of Caliban for the 90sec of screen time as well.... (see last part of this post below)

 

Your comment about "being ready to put him out of his misery" disheartens me because it's finally throwing in the towel and realizing that we're unlikely to get something more than we've already seen so far.....(see last part of this post below)....and I can't really argue with that.

 

 

Horus Heresy 53: Titandeath

Ah, Guy Haley, we meet again.

 

<snip>

 

TL:DR – It Was Decent

ANR: 6 / 10 - Wolfsbane was a better story but was also more annoying

 

 

Solid writeup yet again, @Roomsky.

 

+++++++

 

I'm so done with paying $ for something just for the cameo. I did it with Pharos and Angels of Caliban and arguably even Wolfsbane.

 

That being said, I stumbled across the below about the battle from Lexicanum:

 

From:  http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Beta-Garmon

 

The situation for the loyalists changed when the Red Tear and a combined Blood Angels and White Scars fleet arrived. Though a month late due to the difficult warp travel, Sanguinius and Jaghatai Khan both immediately set about reforming the war effort. Sanguinius quickly took supreme command, while the Khan engaged in hit-and-run strikes across the Beta-Garmon Cluster. On the system capital of Beta-Garmon II Sanguinius led a force of Blood Angels and nearly 30 Titan Legions to capture the planet from Horus' forces. Despite fierce orbital bombardment from the loyalists, most of the traitor forces remained intact thanks to heavily entrenched positions, debris fields, and Void Shields. At Nyrcon City they were met by an equally massive traitor force, and over a thousand titans fought on the irradiated fields of Beta-Garmon II. During the height of the battle Sanguinius and the Sanguinary Guard dropped from the sky via Stormbird, boarding the traitor Imperator Titan Axis Mundi and destroying it from the inside.^[7b] The fighting was bitter, and five times did the loyalist Titan's fling themselves before the traitor defenses around Nyrcon City. Meanwhile, Azkaellon led an assault on Beta-Garmon II's orbiting Starfort known as The Anvil. Aboard, the Blood Angels discovered only small ravenous bands of Sons of Horus and Lost and the Damned rabble. Realizing that they had been played, Akzaellon and his men narrowly evacuated The Anvil as it detonated. The resulting debris showered across the surface of Beta-Garmon II, annihilating both sides.^[7c]

It soon became apparent that the assault on Beta-Garmon II had been a feint, and the traitors real intent was taking the now-lightly defended Beta-Garmon III and the Astropathic choir which served as the loyalist communications center known as the Carthega Telepathica. At Caldera City, Horus himself emerged at the front of a massive army of Sons of Horus and 100 titans of the Legio Mortis, the Warmaster's favored Titan Legion which until this point had been held in reserve. Alongside these forces strood eight daemonically possessed Warlord Titans of the Legio Vulpa. The predominately Legio Solaria and Imperial Army defenders were quickly overwhelmed by Horus' force. The titans of the Legio Mortis managed to topple the Carthega Telepathica, sending the massive edifice on top of the loyalists and decimating them and securing a traitor victory. While inspecting his field of victory upon Beta-Garmon III, the wound Horus had suffered from Leman Russ reopened, causing him to collapse and be whisked away by his desperate subordinates Horus Aximand and Falkus Kibre. The Warmaster was rushed back to the Vengeful Spirit.^[6]

 

Meanwhile on Beta-Garmon II, Sanguinius and the Khan realized that with most of their forces now destroyed and Beta-Garmon III as well as the Carthega Telepathica in enemy hands, Dorn's gambit to buy time had reached its limit. They abandoned the Beta-Garmon warzone with any surviving loyalists that could be found

 

 

...and so I ask those of you who have read it: are the parts about Sanguinius and the Blood Angels worth reading?* Loaded question, especially given my rants above. But I'm intrigued that there are actually BA characters other than just Sangy appearing (Lexicanum mentions Raldoran...does he do anything other than literally just show up and mutter a line or two?) and anything that actually shows the IX Legion's way of warfare is of interest me**.

 

The secondary question is there enough in there to warrant White Scars fans reading it as well?

 

Granted, I understand that this a "Titan book" and not an "Astartes book" or "Primarch book" so it's not going to be a lot of material.

 

Guy Haley has ranted about fans judging books before they've read them, and even before they've even come out. I get that and realize that what I'm doing is that exact thing. But as stated above, I'm sick and tired of paying BL for the whole meal when I just wanted to try the side dish.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

*I'll decide if that translates into "worth purchasing"

**Ruinstorm was the only thing to my knowledge that has shown any sort of preferred tactics or maneuvers of the IX Legion, especially compared to other Legions. I suppose the opening scene of Fear to Tread counts as well....

[Tymell]

...and so I ask those of you who have read it: are the parts about Sanguinius and the Blood Angels worth reading?* Loaded question, especially given my rants above. But I'm intrigued that there are actually BA characters other than just Sangy appearing (Lexicanum mentions Raldoran...does he do anything other than literally just show up and mutter a line or two?) and anything that actually shows the IX Legion's way of warfare is of interest me**.

 

The secondary question is there enough in there to warrant White Scars fans reading it as well?

 

 

Personally, I'd say a firm "No" and a "Not really" for the Scars and Angels respectively.

 

Jaghatai only appears twice, once when he and Sanguinius first arrive in system and part, then again at the end when they reunite. I didn't think there was anything wrong with his appearances, but they're only minor, so I wouldn't put this forward as something to read if you're looking for more Scars/Khan content.

 

With the Blood Angels there is more, but still not a lot. Of the 33 chapters, 4 are dedicated to Sanguinius/the Blood Angels, but 3 of those are short. There's the one where he and the Scars arrive in system, one longer one detailing Sanguinius assault on a titan, one with Azkaellon attacking the Anvil (space station/platform) and then one with Sanguinius in the aftermath lamenting the damage done. The only named Blood Angels to appear (aside from Sangy) are Raldoron, Amit and Azkaellon. Raldoron shares some talk with Sanguinius a couple of times, Amit I think appears for a line at the end, and Azkaellon has the chapter with him leading an attack.

 

As with the Khan, I say this as a judgement of quantity rather than quality. But even though I enjoy the book as a whole, and don't think either of them are badly done, I also don't think either is strong enough that I'd say "As a BA/WS fan, you should really read this".

[Indefragable]

 

...and so I ask those of you who have read it: are the parts about Sanguinius and the Blood Angels worth reading?* Loaded question, especially given my rants above. But I'm intrigued that there are actually BA characters other than just Sangy appearing (Lexicanum mentions Raldoran...does he do anything other than literally just show up and mutter a line or two?) and anything that actually shows the IX Legion's way of warfare is of interest me**.

 

The secondary question is there enough in there to warrant White Scars fans reading it as well?

 

 

Personally, I'd say a firm "No" and a "Not really" for the Scars and Angels respectively.

 

Jaghatai only appears twice, once when he and Sanguinius first arrive in system and part, then again at the end when they reunite. I didn't think there was anything wrong with his appearances, but they're only minor, so I wouldn't put this forward as something to read if you're looking for more Scars/Khan content.

 

With the Blood Angels there is more, but still not a lot. Of the 33 chapters, 4 are dedicated to Sanguinius/the Blood Angels, but 3 of those are short. There's the one where he and the Scars arrive in system, one longer one detailing Sanguinius assault on a titan, one with Azkaellon attacking the Anvil (space station/platform) and then one with Sanguinius in the aftermath lamenting the damage done. The only named Blood Angels to appear (aside from Sangy) are Raldoron, Amit and Azkaellon. Raldoron shares some talk with Sanguinius a couple of times, Amit I think appears for a line at the end, and Azkaellon has the chapter with him leading an attack.

 

As with the Khan, I say this as a judgement of quantity rather than quality. But even though I enjoy the book as a whole, and don't think either of them are badly done, I also don't think either is strong enough that I'd say "As a BA/WS fan, you should really read this".

 

 

Boom. Thanks.

[DarKnight]

We just gotta wait on Malevolence for actual tactics on the IX Legion and how it'd be implemented against a foe. So far in the novels all we've gotten is *jumps out of Stormbird* which gets old quick as heck

[Fedor]

Ruinstorm did a very good job of moving Sanguinius beyond his fears/doubts of being tied to one certain future. It's a bit of a shame haley has chosen to refocus on that "i don't die here" sort of fatalism for his appearance here.

[Rob P]

I don't intend to read this book based on the reviews, but, to be fair, I probably wasn't going to read it based on the premise.

 

What was the main purpose of this books? Was it to show off the titans? Was it to give a nod to existing lore? Would it have made a different if this book didn't exist and Slaves to Darkness was edited to be a direct follow-on to Wolfsbane? Or is it integral to the narrative journey?

[Mellow]

Nothing happens. It’s basically “lots of titans fight, complete chaos in a whole star system, Horus wins and moves on”

[Carach]

If roomsky dislikes Rogue One i would love to hear his take on the disaster that is the 2 new trilogy films, especially TLJ. 

[Tymell]

I don't intend to read this book based on the reviews, but, to be fair, I probably wasn't going to read it based on the premise.

 

What was the main purpose of this books? Was it to show off the titans? Was it to give a nod to existing lore? Would it have made a different if this book didn't exist and Slaves to Darkness was edited to be a direct follow-on to Wolfsbane? Or is it integral to the narrative journey?

 

It depends on what you're after and what you define as "integral to the narrative journey".

 

Some only want to read about a select number of characters/forces (e.g. wanting to read the story of legion X). Some want to get to Terra as soon as possible. Some want to see the series cover the "big hits" but don't care about the rest. Some want to read more about the wider conflict. [Michael Caine]Some just wanna watch the galaxy burn.[/Michael Caine]

 

Different people are interested in different things, and that's perfectly fine. The main purpose of Titandeath is, as I assume with most entries in the series, to tell a good story. In many cases there might be other factors motivating its existence, but I believe most (if not all) authors involved are writing because they like the setting/characters and want to tell a good story with it/them.

 

Guy Haley does elaborate in the afterword on how this book almost didn't happen. Originally the Great Slaughter was going to be covered in Wolfsbane, but it was decided that this wouldn't fit/make sense, and the Russ vs. Horus conflict took place at Trisolian instead. There was then the possibility of Beta-Garmon not being covered (by BL at least) at all, but it was further decided that it was a big enough event that it should be detailed. Guy also says he decided to focus on the titans (the entire conflict was too big to cover). So in that regard, the aim was to cover this big conflict in at least some fashion, and to focus on the Titan Legios.

 

To some, this will qualify as relevant, to others it might not. With a series as big as the Horus Heresy, I think there's a lot of room for different answers about what's relevant or not.

 

 

If roomsky dislikes Rogue One i would love to hear his take on the disaster that is the 2 new trilogy films, especially TLJ. 

 

Please, for the love of the God-Emperor, if you want to hear that, PM him about it. I really don't want yet another thread derailed by pointless arguments about irrelevant topics (I'm not saying you've done this yourself, Carach, but it's happened a lot in general and I can just see it looming again) 

[BrainFireBob]

We will have to see at the final tally, but no. They were present, but once the shell they occupied was found to be breaking down, they left. Throw the Emperor into the Warp, in front of them all, and its going to be a different thing.

 

It reminds me of a story...a Wizard knew he could not defeat a God in their realm, so tricked them into the Real World, and killed them. I'm getting old, not sure why I cannot remember this...

Dragonlance, Twin's trilogy. Fistandantilus tries, fails, and lives off the life force of young wizards, including Raistlin. Raistlin goes back in time, feeds on Fistandantilys first, becomes locked into Fistandantilus' destiny by conservation of time, but a lender mocks it up. He succeeds, but cannot create and destroys all life in the universe. His brother goes back in time again to show him the future, and he fails <i>because he chooses to. </i>. Badass ending