Where do Reivers fit into the chapter?

[Panzer]

Regardless of whether or not primaris marines spend time as scouts, most agree they don't fit the 10th. So maybe instead of assault marines in the battle companies?

 

That sounds like the most plausible for Reiver, yeah. They don't get used the same way as Assault Marines in most Chapters but that's the closest role aside from Scouts there is.

[Dusktiger]

In the end, I think it’ll come down to how they treat them organizationally, not codex slotted. In 8th, we saw them take the symbols we originally associated with the tactical, assault, devastator, and terminator squads, and rename them into battlefield role types.

 

For this case, the assault marine symbol is called Close Support now, and it’s portrayed on several units, including Reivers. It’s also been traditionally seen used on assault marines, land speeders, bikers, vanguard veterans before they were bumped into the elite slot....IIRC, one of the other primaris units has the close support type too...aggressors? It’s been a while since I read my ePub file.

 

So if you look at the traditional roles that normal marines held in a battle company, you could assume that position is now a role type instead of squad type, and swap squads accordingly based on role rather than name.

[Robbienw]

And even when the BA come out of their sarcophagi transformed, they still undergo training as Scouts even though they have all the organs (I'm not sure whether they do or don't have the Black Carapace after the year in the sarcophagi personally, I don't remember that this was not grown in them as well).

 

So even if all Primaris were to be kept in a Genesis Chamber for the entire implantation period as short as 2-4 years (practically the shortest period that stages in the Index Astartes outline (from 14-16 years for the initiate - which would basically be a perfected implantation, which is what Primaris implantation is supposed to be), they would likely still be subject to some amount of time as a Scout. It might be shorter (likely even much shorter) than a standard Marine though, but I don't doubt the traditional Marine Chapters would want to put them through their paces before jumping them into the rest of the Chapter.

 

There is no such thing as Primaris Scouts, they go straight into power armour. Presumably in whichever squad role they are trained into from the off.

Sure, if that floats your boat, go with it... personally, it doesn't work for me - I can see the original Cawl-made ones working that way, they may have even had their own proving periods under him in and out of stasis, but once they begin to be made by the more traditional Chapters, I can only see them being put through paces for some period.

 

And before anyone says "But obviously there are no Scouts with the Primaris key word" - true, but the Repulsor and Redemptor don't have the Primaris key word either...

 

 

 

Its not about what floats my boat.  I agree with you that it would make sense for them have a scout equivalent unit they go into before full marine time.

 

But there is no evidence to suggest they do spend any time as Scouts.  There is no Scout equivalent unit or any mention of Primaris Scouts in any fluff anywhere.

 

They'd be a bit different to normal marine Scouts.  They would be bigger and stronger, and they would have primaris specific weapons like the other primaris units. 

 

You can't just say the normal marine scout unit could represent them, that makes no sense.  The Primaris organs go in in fairly early stages.  They would be bigger and stronger than normal scouts, they wouldn't just magically grow 20% bigger overnight once they got the black carapace, they would be fully grown to primaris size, like scouts are fully grown to normal marine size.  A primaris scout unit would have to have at the +1 wound and +1 attack at least, even if they used standard weapons.

 

I think its stated specifically in one of the recent novels that they don't have a Scout stage, think it was in Shroud of Night.

[Bryan Blaire]

I disagree that "they would have to have the +1W and +1A", there's a pretty large distinction between +1A for standard Marines, so a still undergoing training Primaris would probably be just fine using the standard Scout stat-line.

 

But yes, actual textual evidence would go more toward showing that they don't have a breaking in phase. As I said, there's no Primaris keyword for the Repulsor or Redemptor either, so a lack of rules defining something doesn't change much. I doubt that the Repulsor is piloted by a standard Marine even though it doesn't specify Primaris, so the fact that there's no Primaris Scouts in the rules doesn't mean to me that the standard Scout couldn't be an equal stand in for Primaris generating Scouts.

 

And GW may not have figured out exactly what they wanted to do here - it wouldn't be the first time it took them a while to introduce something they later said had been there all along, or at least a long time - Centurions come to mind, as do the Stalker tanks.

 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Harrowmaster]

Regardless of primaris scouts, this is about where they fit. Most agree in a battle company they'd replace assault squads?

[Bryan Blaire]

Reivers would either replace or augment Assault Squads, IMO. It may even be up to individual company commanders to decide how they would fit.

[Robbienw]

They still would need bigger models even if they weirdly dropped the +1 wound. It just doesn’t make any logical sense that the normal entry could be used to also represent the primaris given they have such notable differences. Along with the total lack of evidence there are primaris scouts, I think we can safely say there aren’t.

 

It indeed is stated that they do not serve time in the scouts before taking their place in the line of battle in the book Shroud of Night by an Imperial Fists captain on page 27, so there is a bit of definitive proof for you.

[Bryan Blaire]

It indeed is stated that they do not serve time in the scouts before taking their place in the line of battle in the book Shroud of Night by an Imperial Fists captain on page 27, so there is a bit of definitive proof for you.

Interesting! What is the quote where he says it? I'm just wondering what the IF captain's statement about it is (and does he consider it strange at all).

 

And more to the point of this thread - does it say exactly what the 10th Company in an all-Primaris Chapter is? Maybe the 10th Company is all Reivers, which could inform how they might be used in a mixed Astartes Chapter (in that they'd be where Harrowmaster had already considered placing them)?

[Kinstryfe]

In the Great Crusade most Marines went straight to regular line squads, without a scout phase, so Primaris echoing the crusade organizations at the squad level it also kind of makes sense that they're mirroring their training in some ways.

 

As for where they'd slot in, I'll echo the sentiment that as close support they probably fit in the same slot that assault marines/bikes/speeders would fit at current, so are probably used in the same slots those would be.

[Robbienw]

 

It indeed is stated that they do not serve time in the scouts before taking their place in the line of battle in the book Shroud of Night by an Imperial Fists captain on page 27, so there is a bit of definitive proof for you.

Interesting! What is the quote where he says it? I'm just wondering what the IF captain's statement about it is (and does he consider it strange at all).

 

And more to the point of this thread - does it say exactly what the 10th Company in an all-Primaris Chapter is? Maybe the 10th Company is all Reivers, which could inform how they might be used in a mixed Astartes Chapter (in that they'd be where Harrowmaster had already considered placing them)?

He’s not happy with it, he doesn’t consider them proven in battle. He is talking to a tech marine about it in the quote. Most of his company are happy with them though.

 

“We have fought the long war against chaos without them for ten thousand years, replied Dysorian, subvocalising so as not to be overheard. New genetics? New weapons? Spawned from the work of a tech-magos trying to imitate - no, worse - to improve upon the Emperors own labours? Battle brothers who do not even serve time in the Scout Companies or the Devastators before taking their place in the line? I neither trust nor need such warriors amongst my ranks, Pavras. Dorn’s fist, they’re not even proven in battle!”

 

The book says nothing about Primaris specific chapters.

 

The book is written by Andy Clark, who is a background writer in the GW studio, so I would expect it to be accurate to the studios line of thinking on the topic.

[Harrowmaster]

So given the role of reivers in the background and what category the codex puts them into it seems like the 8th company or as a replacement for assault squads in the battlecompanies would be the most fitting place in the chapter organisation.

 

Thanks for the responses to this effect.

[Bryan Blaire]

Very cool, Robbie, thank you! I withdraw my entire argument then, that pretty much settles it for me until GW does something else screwy.

[CCE1981]

For my DIY Chapter the Tempesta Griffins turned the 10th company into a special forces unit, moving the scouts over to the battle companies. Reivers fall into the 10th company doctrine, and are chosen from Line battle brothers that have shown an aptitude for the skills necessary in that role.

[Boldthreat]

I'm assuming, probably incorrectly at that; that Reivers are a unique organization within the Chapter and are assigned to task forces or battle companies as needed.

 

Seeing as how they are geared for stealthy shock assaults and are specifically geared for stealth, I would assume that in a Primaris Chapter, Rievers are apart or soley comprise the 10th Company.

 

In my head, given what we know of how Primaris chapters organize (which is nothing) this is how I imagine they are organized:

 

1st Company: No clue. Aggressors do not have white helmets, so they are not veterans as classified by the Ultramarines. We currently have no sternguard or vanguard equivalents. After 200 years of crusading we should have Primaris Veterans. Will they just be elite versions of regular units like Deathwatch? Maybe.

 

2nd - 5th Companies: Battle Company. 12 Intercessor Squads, 4 Inceptor Squads, 4 hellblaster squads.

 

6th - 7th Companies: Battleline reserve companies. 20 squads of marines that can be configured as Intercessors or Hellblasters.

 

8th Company: Inceptor Company. 20 Inceptor Squads.

 

9th Company: Aggressor Company. 20 Aggressor squads.

 

10th Company: Riever Company. 20 Riever squads.

 

This is subject to change as we get more units or an official organization. Also note that Inceptors and Aggressors should be 5 man standard. The old hand in me likes 5 or 10 man squads... Doesn't anyone care about the codex anymore!!!!

[Blindhamster]

I imagine the lore will change to include some sort of breaking in phase primaris marines when models exist for them lol. Also, are we sure the imperial fist captain isn't talking about primaris that were sent to the fists by guilliman? Rather than newly created ones?

 

As far as I know, no book has covered the journey of a newly created primaris yet.

 

Devastation of Baal is a poor book to look at I'm terms of primaris, because according to that, he blood angels stop making marines and move entirely to primaris, but we know that this isn't the case from the codex where BA have 500 scouts in the making...

 

The genesis machines basically just seem to do what BA sarcophagus have always done - make a marine in a single year. And the index astartes clearly showed that the primaris marines are made in the same way and timeline as existing marines, just with a few more implants slotted in.

[Dracos]

^This^

 

Thanks for the low down Robbie. I still would take that exchange in context. The thoughts of a Marine obviously biased and unable to adapt to the “new” recruits. Most of which were alive and even possibly serving as an initiate centuries before he was a chromosome in the Emperor’s eye.

 

The day GW gives Reivers the Concealed Positions ability I’ll consider them Infiltrators. Until then they are a specialized unit that belong in my Chapters “reserves”. Like SpecOp units today they are an auxiliary unit that doesn’t have a place in the standard Company organization tables.

[Harrowmaster]

After some more reading and a re-read of the thread I think I'm going to put them in with the assault squads in my own chapter.

[old git]

Perhaps it's time for a reorganization of roles within a chapter, ala GWs renaming of troops, assault etc. Maybe a complete redesign in light of Primaris inclusion into traditional chapters. Gulliman wrote the original codex, he could easily do a 2nd edition.

[MyD4rkPassenger]

Forgive me if I am wrong but hasn't it already been stated that Gulliman was unhappy with how the codex was received and implemented and has already wrote, or is in the process of writing, the restructure and fighting styles of chapters?  If this is the case we may need to break the old mold for rievers and where they might go in a chapter.  They might have their own company now past the 10s or simply serve as another armor set a la terminator armor.

[Volt]

The thing I don't really see their purpose is that they are pretty damn redundant when it comes to a Space Marine Chapter. Their whole "use" is as a terror troop... as Space Marines. Your average Assault Marine is already a terrifying threat to most enemies, a Reiver isn't adding anything more to that besides less mobility, less specialized firepower, and just bringing more durability. As out of the foes marines fight; Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, an unbroken Ork Warband, Necrons, Genestealer Cults, Daemons, and even some Eldar aren't going to be feeling any fear. All Reivers will have any true effectiveness against is fodder that Marines would already be routing from mere presence - rebels, chaos cultists, orks minus the warboss' aura, etc - aren't going to be routing any harder just because Reivers showed up. 

 

Their role is basically just being more mobile intercessors while having lighter armor. It's one of the real headscratchers of the entire Primaris line, they don't really have a well thought out function. What do ten dudes with bolt guns or bolt pistols and combat blades do that ten dudes with bolt guns or combat blades and bolt pistols don't? The only Chapters I could see them really "fitting" is the Dark Hunters or Raven Guard, with them coating their armor in cameoline paintjobs so they can infiltrate enemy positions while being able to silently deepstrike. For the Blood Angels or Imperial Fists, I can only see Dante and Hagen scratching their heads asking "the 'ell am I supposed to do with these things?" once Guilliman leaves them on their doorstep like a box of homeless kittens.

[Panzer]

The thing I don't really see their purpose is that they are pretty damn redundant when it comes to a Space Marine Chapter. Their whole "use" is as a terror troop... as Space Marines. Your average Assault Marine is already a terrifying threat to most enemies, a Reiver isn't adding anything more to that besides less mobility, less specialized firepower, and just bringing more durability. As out of the foes marines fight; Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, an unbroken Ork Warband, Necrons, Genestealer Cults, Daemons, and even some Eldar aren't going to be feeling any fear. All Reivers will have any true effectiveness against is fodder that Marines would already be routing from mere presence - rebels, chaos cultists, orks minus the warboss' aura, etc - aren't going to be routing any harder just because Reivers showed up. 

 

Their role is basically just being more mobile intercessors while having lighter armor. It's one of the real headscratchers of the entire Primaris line, they don't really have a well thought out function. What do ten dudes with bolt guns or bolt pistols and combat blades do that ten dudes with bolt guns or combat blades and bolt pistols don't? The only Chapters I could see them really "fitting" is the Dark Hunters or Raven Guard, with them coating their armor in cameoline paintjobs so they can infiltrate enemy positions while being able to silently deepstrike. For the Blood Angels or Imperial Fists, I can only see Dante and Hagen scratching their heads asking "the 'ell am I supposed to do with these things?" once Guilliman leaves them on their doorstep like a box of homeless kittens.

 

Well just ask Night Lords. Being terror troops is basically their whole thing so there has to be some application for it in-universe. ^^

Also what Reiver add to that role is a LD debuff and grenades with the purpose of confusing their targets rather than trying to kill them.

 

If you're talking about their role on the board then yes you're right and why Reiver aren't considered a good unit currently. However that's not the purpose of this thread. ;)

[Othniel's Blade]

 

*snip*

“We have fought the long war against chaos without them for ten thousand years, replied Dysorian, subvocalising so as not to be overheard. New genetics? New weapons? Spawned from the work of a tech-magos trying to imitate - no, worse - to improve upon the Emperors own labours? Battle brothers who do not even serve time in the Scout Companies or the Devastators before taking their place in the line? I neither trust nor need such warriors amongst my ranks, Pavras. Dorn’s fist, they’re not even proven in battle!”

 

The book says nothing about Primaris specific chapters.

 

The book is written by Andy Clark, who is a background writer in the GW studio, so I would expect it to be accurate to the studios line of thinking on the topic.

 

 

I interpreted this to showcase the direct implantation of full-fledged Primaris into the battlelines of the Chapter, as opposed to the Codex-rigid progression of Scout->Dev->(Assault)->Tactical.

[Volt]

 

The thing I don't really see their purpose is that they are pretty damn redundant when it comes to a Space Marine Chapter. Their whole "use" is as a terror troop... as Space Marines. Your average Assault Marine is already a terrifying threat to most enemies, a Reiver isn't adding anything more to that besides less mobility, less specialized firepower, and just bringing more durability. As out of the foes marines fight; Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, an unbroken Ork Warband, Necrons, Genestealer Cults, Daemons, and even some Eldar aren't going to be feeling any fear. All Reivers will have any true effectiveness against is fodder that Marines would already be routing from mere presence - rebels, chaos cultists, orks minus the warboss' aura, etc - aren't going to be routing any harder just because Reivers showed up. 

 

Their role is basically just being more mobile intercessors while having lighter armor. It's one of the real headscratchers of the entire Primaris line, they don't really have a well thought out function. What do ten dudes with bolt guns or bolt pistols and combat blades do that ten dudes with bolt guns or combat blades and bolt pistols don't? The only Chapters I could see them really "fitting" is the Dark Hunters or Raven Guard, with them coating their armor in cameoline paintjobs so they can infiltrate enemy positions while being able to silently deepstrike. For the Blood Angels or Imperial Fists, I can only see Dante and Hagen scratching their heads asking "the 'ell am I supposed to do with these things?" once Guilliman leaves them on their doorstep like a box of homeless kittens.

 

Well just ask Night Lords. Being terror troops is basically their whole thing so there has to be some application for it in-universe. ^^

Also what Reiver add to that role is a LD debuff and grenades with the purpose of confusing their targets rather than trying to kill them.

 

If you're talking about their role on the board then yes you're right and why Reiver aren't considered a good unit currently. However that's not the purpose of this thread.

 

No I mean tactically. Reivers are ultimately just dudes with boltguns with the same amount of veterancy as any other marine. All they ultimately do is quiet insertions, they don't even do proper assassinations courtesy of lacking long ranged weapons such as scout sniper rifles or stalker bolters. They actually don't make much sense to even have a place in the traditional company because they don't have a real battlefield world. They can't defend themselves if they encounter enemy armor, all they have is boltguns. So all they can go after is soft targets that will already get torn up by the rest of the Company anyway courtesy of their armament being virtually the same as everybody else, sans weapons that would allow them to clear out light infantry with greater effectiveness or knock out enemy armor if encountered. 

 

Basically they need to be tied at the hip either to Tactical Marines or Hellblasters for heavy support during a campaign to ensure they don't get killed if something as simple as Leman Russes show up, and don't contribute anything really to fighting threats like Nids or Chaos Space Marines.

 

Also as much as I love the Eighth, they are deeply flawed cowardly villains. They specifically get their arses kicked to the curb during the Horus Heresy because all they're good at is striking at soft targets, and their tactics are useless against peer threats without an ambush. Whenever they're drawn out of their shadows they're slaughtered, and it makes them extremely vulnerable throughout the course of the Horus Heresy. They are terrible model to base a unit on as the Night Lords only true skill was beating up an already weak target and scaring them straight. 

 

Unless Reivers are purely used outside of full scale campaigns, they just don't really add anything to the Company's abilities besides more linemen lacking the equipment to adapt to new situations. 

[Panzer]

 

 

The thing I don't really see their purpose is that they are pretty damn redundant when it comes to a Space Marine Chapter. Their whole "use" is as a terror troop... as Space Marines. Your average Assault Marine is already a terrifying threat to most enemies, a Reiver isn't adding anything more to that besides less mobility, less specialized firepower, and just bringing more durability. As out of the foes marines fight; Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, an unbroken Ork Warband, Necrons, Genestealer Cults, Daemons, and even some Eldar aren't going to be feeling any fear. All Reivers will have any true effectiveness against is fodder that Marines would already be routing from mere presence - rebels, chaos cultists, orks minus the warboss' aura, etc - aren't going to be routing any harder just because Reivers showed up. 

 

Their role is basically just being more mobile intercessors while having lighter armor. It's one of the real headscratchers of the entire Primaris line, they don't really have a well thought out function. What do ten dudes with bolt guns or bolt pistols and combat blades do that ten dudes with bolt guns or combat blades and bolt pistols don't? The only Chapters I could see them really "fitting" is the Dark Hunters or Raven Guard, with them coating their armor in cameoline paintjobs so they can infiltrate enemy positions while being able to silently deepstrike. For the Blood Angels or Imperial Fists, I can only see Dante and Hagen scratching their heads asking "the 'ell am I supposed to do with these things?" once Guilliman leaves them on their doorstep like a box of homeless kittens.

 

Well just ask Night Lords. Being terror troops is basically their whole thing so there has to be some application for it in-universe. ^^

Also what Reiver add to that role is a LD debuff and grenades with the purpose of confusing their targets rather than trying to kill them.

 

If you're talking about their role on the board then yes you're right and why Reiver aren't considered a good unit currently. However that's not the purpose of this thread.

 

No I mean tactically. Reivers are ultimately just dudes with boltguns with the same amount of veterancy as any other marine. All they ultimately do is quiet insertions, they don't even do proper assassinations courtesy of lacking long ranged weapons such as scout sniper rifles or stalker bolters. They actually don't make much sense to even have a place in the traditional company because they don't have a real battlefield world. They can't defend themselves if they encounter enemy armor, all they have is boltguns. So all they can go after is soft targets that will already get torn up by the rest of the Company anyway courtesy of their armament being virtually the same as everybody else, sans weapons that would allow them to clear out light infantry with greater effectiveness or knock out enemy armor if encountered. 

 

Basically they need to be tied at the hip either to Tactical Marines or Hellblasters for heavy support during a campaign to ensure they don't get killed if something as simple as Leman Russes show up, and don't contribute anything really to fighting threats like Nids or Chaos Space Marines.

 

Also as much as I love the Eighth, they are deeply flawed cowardly villains. They specifically get their arses kicked to the curb during the Horus Heresy because all they're good at is striking at soft targets, and their tactics are useless against peer threats without an ambush. Whenever they're drawn out of their shadows they're slaughtered, and it makes them extremely vulnerable throughout the course of the Horus Heresy. They are terrible model to base a unit on as the Night Lords only true skill was beating up an already weak target and scaring them straight. 

 

Unless Reivers are purely used outside of full scale campaigns, they just don't really add anything to the Company's abilities besides more linemen lacking the equipment to adapt to new situations. 

 

 

I'll just assume you talk about tactically in-universe because it's a fluff thread and not a crunch thread.

In-universe tactically my answer still doesn't change. Night Lords also don't have anything special compare with other Marines. Same units, same equipment, same everything. And to your "they just have Bolter" .... you heavily underestimate the destructive power of a simple Bolter in-universe. Just because it's a meh weapon on the board it doesn't mean it's a meh weapon in-universe. Something like a Leman Russ they aren't supposed to deal with. They have the low profile and mobility to simply not engage with something like that. They go after the infantry and maintenance fascilities and stuff. See a Leman Russ rolling around the corner? Grapple Hook away and strike at another position. That's like saying Tacticals without any special or heavy weapon can't deal with armour which is really no argument at all.

Also they don't do assassinations properly because that's not their job. That's like saying T'au Stealth Suits don't do assassinations properly because they have literally the same job in the army. Get behind the enemy lines and cause confusion and terror. Keep them distracted and occupied so they aren't prepared enough to deal with your main force. It's not something that translates very well on the board and it's a less traditional role for Marines aside from Night Lords who focus pretty much just on that (tho Scouts some times do similar stuff in terms of preparing the battle field) but it's not like it doesn't exist.

 

And if you still argue about tactically on-board ... well I already said they suck. (emphasizing that you talk about it tactically really doesn't clarify anything)

[Volt]

 

 

 

The thing I don't really see their purpose is that they are pretty damn redundant when it comes to a Space Marine Chapter. Their whole "use" is as a terror troop... as Space Marines. Your average Assault Marine is already a terrifying threat to most enemies, a Reiver isn't adding anything more to that besides less mobility, less specialized firepower, and just bringing more durability. As out of the foes marines fight; Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, an unbroken Ork Warband, Necrons, Genestealer Cults, Daemons, and even some Eldar aren't going to be feeling any fear. All Reivers will have any true effectiveness against is fodder that Marines would already be routing from mere presence - rebels, chaos cultists, orks minus the warboss' aura, etc - aren't going to be routing any harder just because Reivers showed up. 

 

Their role is basically just being more mobile intercessors while having lighter armor. It's one of the real headscratchers of the entire Primaris line, they don't really have a well thought out function. What do ten dudes with bolt guns or bolt pistols and combat blades do that ten dudes with bolt guns or combat blades and bolt pistols don't? The only Chapters I could see them really "fitting" is the Dark Hunters or Raven Guard, with them coating their armor in cameoline paintjobs so they can infiltrate enemy positions while being able to silently deepstrike. For the Blood Angels or Imperial Fists, I can only see Dante and Hagen scratching their heads asking "the 'ell am I supposed to do with these things?" once Guilliman leaves them on their doorstep like a box of homeless kittens.

 

Well just ask Night Lords. Being terror troops is basically their whole thing so there has to be some application for it in-universe. ^^

Also what Reiver add to that role is a LD debuff and grenades with the purpose of confusing their targets rather than trying to kill them.

 

If you're talking about their role on the board then yes you're right and why Reiver aren't considered a good unit currently. However that's not the purpose of this thread.

 

No I mean tactically. Reivers are ultimately just dudes with boltguns with the same amount of veterancy as any other marine. All they ultimately do is quiet insertions, they don't even do proper assassinations courtesy of lacking long ranged weapons such as scout sniper rifles or stalker bolters. They actually don't make much sense to even have a place in the traditional company because they don't have a real battlefield world. They can't defend themselves if they encounter enemy armor, all they have is boltguns. So all they can go after is soft targets that will already get torn up by the rest of the Company anyway courtesy of their armament being virtually the same as everybody else, sans weapons that would allow them to clear out light infantry with greater effectiveness or knock out enemy armor if encountered. 

 

Basically they need to be tied at the hip either to Tactical Marines or Hellblasters for heavy support during a campaign to ensure they don't get killed if something as simple as Leman Russes show up, and don't contribute anything really to fighting threats like Nids or Chaos Space Marines.

 

Also as much as I love the Eighth, they are deeply flawed cowardly villains. They specifically get their arses kicked to the curb during the Horus Heresy because all they're good at is striking at soft targets, and their tactics are useless against peer threats without an ambush. Whenever they're drawn out of their shadows they're slaughtered, and it makes them extremely vulnerable throughout the course of the Horus Heresy. They are terrible model to base a unit on as the Night Lords only true skill was beating up an already weak target and scaring them straight. 

 

Unless Reivers are purely used outside of full scale campaigns, they just don't really add anything to the Company's abilities besides more linemen lacking the equipment to adapt to new situations. 

 

 

I'll just assume you talk about tactically in-universe because it's a fluff thread and not a crunch thread.

In-universe tactically my answer still doesn't change. Night Lords also don't have anything special compare with other Marines. Same units, same equipment, same everything. And to your "they just have Bolter" .... you heavily underestimate the destructive power of a simple Bolter in-universe. Just because it's a meh weapon on the board it doesn't mean it's a meh weapon in-universe. Something like a Leman Russ they aren't supposed to deal with. They have the low profile and mobility to simply not engage with something like that. They go after the infantry and maintenance fascilities and stuff. See a Leman Russ rolling around the corner? Grapple Hook away and strike at another position. That's like saying Tacticals without any special or heavy weapon can't deal with armour which is really no argument at all.

Also they don't do assassinations properly because that's not their job. That's like saying T'au Stealth Suits don't do assassinations properly because they have literally the same job in the army. Get behind the enemy lines and cause confusion and terror. Keep them distracted and occupied so they aren't prepared enough to deal with your main force. It's not something that translates very well on the board and it's a less traditional role for Marines aside from Night Lords who focus pretty much just on that (tho Scouts some times do similar stuff in terms of preparing the battle field) but it's not like it doesn't exist.

 

And if you still argue about tactically on-board ... well I already said they suck. (emphasizing that you talk about it tactically really doesn't clarify anything)

 

Yes bolters are powerful. They're 19x165mm projectiles comparable to very high caliber autocannons with armor-piercing high explosive rounds. They're complete overkill for light infantry, gut heavy infantry, and pose a threat to light vehicles. But they've probably only got about 4 spare magazines on them, maybe 5. And they have absolutely zero support weapons: meaning that if they are dragged into a long ranged engagement, attacked by something that's merely bolter resistant, or simply run out of ammo, they're screwed as all they have to fall back on is basic combat knives (because for some reason they don't even carry chainswords ). And their entire purpose is that they're supposed to be deployed ahead of friendly forces, meaning they have no extra ammunition, no hellblasters/devastators to fall back to for support, and no defense against hard targets besides running the hell away and hoping they aren't followed. 

 

Also, again, 'sowing fear' is worthless because you are dealing with marines. They are already pants-crapping terrifying to things that are able to feel fear, and the only thing a full company of marines isn't going to scare senseless and send running isn't going to suddenly be scared by Reivers - 'cause they're fearless. Reivers aren't making a PDF rebellion or traitor guard any more dead, and the marine company would be better served by just adding more heavy or tactical elements to the company. Emulating the Night Lords is a terrible idea, as the Night Lords were terrible at fighting other marines, probably would be awful at fighting nids if they ever tango'd with them, and aren't that effective against Eldar either. Fear tactics aren't that useful in 40k when half the enemies mankind faces are incapable of feeling fear or even outright ignore mortality altogether. I'm not talking the board, I'm talking about the fact that Reivers basically contribute bollocks to a company in terms of anything meaningful. They're more dudes with bolters, basically riflemen, sans support weapons that enable marine units to punch outside of their weight class when confronted by a Leman Russ, Carnifex, Battle Wagon, Daemon Engine, etc. Which the enemy will probably have more of than there are marines in the entire universe. 

 

The only place Reivers have is the same as Scouts, which isn't even being part of a truly formal company structure, and purely serving a non-campaign role where they're deployed in advance to scout out the field, avoid engaging the enemy at all, and maybe blaze a trail for landing the company in. But if you put Reivers into a marine company, all you're realistically doing is grossly harming that company's ability to actually wage a war.