Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore

[Ishagu]

There's no lore reason to restrict Teleportation to a few select Imperium factions. The Primaris should operate with the best technology available. Also, I really don't want to see any Chaos Corruption, it's been done thousands of times. Deathwatch Primaris are already teleporting all over the place, safe to assume Guilliman and Cawl will have anything available to them that is available to the Inquisition.

 

I think Emperor's children are coming, and with them we might get some Improved chaos Astartes, the work of Fabius Bile.

[Kallas]

I'd prefer a teleportation strategem.

Drop Pods are iconic in the lore but useless on the tabletop.

 

As sfPanzer says, rules issues are nothing to base the argument on. A Drop Pod could absolutely be made to be useful in 8th Ed, it's simply that their current state is terrible. If they were 5 points as they are they're be a decent choice; or if they had any number of good ways to improve them. Simply, the rules can be made to fit; the lore is a lot harder to change.

 

Teleportation would be something, but it would still be stepping on toes a lot and it still wouldn't be the same. Teleportation would be effective (assuming things don't go wrong: while the tabletop rules don't have mishaps any longer, teleportation is still extremely dangerous, unless Cawl pulls even more b******* out of his ass and makes 'safe' Primaris-only teleporters!) but still doesn't have the same impact as a Drop Pod.

 

A Drop Pod functions as an actual battering ram, it can be used to smash into prepared positions (not necessarily bunkers, but defensive lines will be disrupted by the sheer force of landing); the DP's landing will also kick up a significant amount of debris, dust and other particulates in the landing area, making enemies more susceptible as they are less able to see; DP's also have immense shock value, which is not to be underestimated even against things like Tyranids (a swarm might be single-minded and extremely organised, but they're still fleshy blood sacks that rely on eyesight and sound, both of which will be severely hampered), where even Tyranids need to take a moment to know how to respond.

 

Drop Pods are so much more than simply a way of getting Astartes from orbit to ground; it's the manner in which they do so. Slamming a squad of Astartes down at 12,000kph into the middle of an enemy formation (especially when Astartes have the in-universe reputation that they do) is pretty demoralising, not to mention when they get out, basically unhindered, and start killing at their generally preferred range (ie, the bad range for enemy humans/Tau, since they're in easy punching range and very accurate Bolter range).

 

Drop Pods are a huge part of the Astartes identity, and it's probably the single more important facet of their character (beyond the superhuman aspect) when informing how they fight.

 

 

 

 

For some extra Drop Pod stat stuff:

The Repulsor certainly wouldn't be able to perform the same function:

A Land Speeder can go at, approximately, 275kph (0.076km/s) and is much faster and lighter than a Repulsor, and has also been used for high altitude drops (if not orbit).

 

Let's be generous and up the Repulsor to 300kph on the drop; that's still failing to even play the same game as the Drop Pod's 12,000kph (that's 400 times the speed of the Repulsor's drop).

Edited August 8, 2018 by Kallas

[Ishagu]

Erm, an object like a Repulsor falling from Orbit without any powered assistance it would still hit speeds of 626 meters per second (assuming it weighs 20+ tonnes which it would do, or far greater)

If it's dropping from 25 miles with a weight of 70 tonnes it will hit 885 meters per second. This is probably more accurate.

 

On the subject of betrayals and what not, I do expect the occasional Primaris to be corrupted in the lore here and there but I have no interest in full traitor chapters or grand betrayals. The Chaos range, if using the DG as an example, will become more divergent which is better for everyone. Let's see the "New Men" of the Emperor's Children.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Ishagu

[UnkyHamHam]

There's no lore reason to restrict Teleportation to a few select Imperium factions. The Primaris should operate with the best technology available. Also, I really don't want to see any Chaos Corruption, it's been done thousands of times. Deathwatch Primaris are already teleporting all over the place, safe to assume Guilliman and Cawl will have anything available to them that is available to the Inquisition.

 

I think Emperor's children are coming, and with them we might get some Improved chaos Astartes, the work of Fabius Bile.

 

This is precisely the exact mentality that loses many of the older fans' respect, and simultaneously refuses to hold reverence to the fluff that came before.  This is the type of behavior that destroys the narrative, character, and setting in the name of making your favorite faction the coolest and best.

 

Why stop there?  Why don't Intercessors take special ammunition?  Why don't Reivers get Custodes Guardian Spears?  Why don't Scout snipers get Vindicaire Exitus Rifles?  Why don't Inceptors mount Cyclone Missile Launchers?  Why don't Primaris Librarians get a Nemesis Dreadknight?  If you can't see the slippery slope you are proposing in erasing other faction's identities to support your contrived Herohammer, then I don't know what to tell you, man. 

 

Please have a little respect for the rest of the fiction.  It's not just Guilliman, Cawl, and their Perfect Primaris band of ultimate knights.

[Ishagu]

I don't for one second think that specialised wargear should be shared around, I'm saying that established lore exists in multiple places of regular Astartes using teleportation.

[UnkyHamHam]

The Primaris should operate with the best technology available.   safe to assume Guilliman and Cawl will have anything available to them that is available to the Inquisition.

 

Snipping the important parts from your post, so that you may rethink the point I was trying to make.  It isn't about the wargear.  Nevermind the fact that wargear is also technology.  Its the assertion that you can just have whatever you want.  And you don't even seem to know enough about the teleportation technology within the universe to know why it isn't spread around everywhere.  I'm not trying to be confrontational.  I'm merely asking you to stop and think about what you are asserting.  And to do a little more research in understanding the status quo of the universe, before attempting to change it.  GW's writers should have done the same thing.

[Ishagu]

I've thought about it. All I'm saying is that it would make perfect sense to allow Astartes units to use a teleportarium, and to work this in through the use of strategems (which limits how much it can be used).

 

The lore supports this, and the rules can work it in easily.

[UnkyHamHam]

I've thought about it. All I'm saying is that it would make perfect sense to allow Astartes units to use a teleportarium, and to work this in through the use of strategems (which limits how much it can be used).

 

The lore supports this, and the rules can work it in easily.

 

The lore supports it... with stipulations.  This is the part where having a better understanding would help.  The teleportariums are dangerous and rare.  So much so that only the most elite factions in the Imperium use them.  And they use them with extreme caution.  Caution in the form of shielding, wards, and psychic conditioning on the level of Grey Knights and Custodes.

 

So you basically have to perform yet another Deus Ex Cawl.  Cawl makes more teleportariums, and they are better and less dangerous.  The most important point is why stop there?  Cawl can make anything apparently.  Basically, if it's technology, he can improve it.  It has to stop somewhere before the setting is diluted.  I'm drawing the line here.  Lets sort out the Primaris story deficiencies before adding more to the setting.

[Kallas]

Erm, an object like a Repuslor falling from Orbit without any powered assistance would still hit speeds of 626 meters per second (assuming it weighs 20+ tons which it would do, or far greater)

 

Fair, I'm not sure how to account for it (and I had to use a special online calculator for it), so my Repulsor estimations (really, they were guesses) are probably off. I guessed the Repulsor would be more like 30 tonnes (before checking the LR), though a Land Raider weighs 72 tonnes.

 

A Land Raider is 72 tonnes, measures 6.1m wide by 10.3m long by 4.11m high, so a surface area of 62.83m², and with a volume of 285.23m³ - I have no idea about the density, but considering that it's one of the heaviest non-Super Heavy vehicles out there, it would be safe to assume it's pretty damn massive. The Repulsor is likely in the same ballpark, albeit with better mobility due to the grav plates. The calctool.org mentions a brick having a drag coefficient of 2.1, so I'll go with that (they're both bricks). I found a calculator for determining density (LR comes out at 252.4kg/m³).

 

So that makes the Land Raider's terminal velocity actually insanely high at 6.5km/s. So let's work with that. At 6.5km/s, the stopping distance is 9.75km. Let's assume that the Repulsor's grav plates cut that by 2/3rds, so its stopping distance is now 3.25km. At this point my ability to work things out is nonexistent and I'd need someone who actually knows this area of math to help work it out.

 

I would estimate that it's entirely possible for the Repulsor to deploy in a similar vein to the Drop Pod (ie, high speed, rapid deceleration) but that it would either:

 - have such high gravity as to render is basically untenable (that is, the g-forces exerted would probably be too much, even for Primaris, considering that it's travelling almost twice as fast as a Drop Pod at the Repulsor's terminal velocity)

 - have to slow its descent much, much earlier, making it susceptible to anti-air fire and possible interception, and also have a much lower impact when it does land (rendering the shock and awe aspect basically null, as the additional time to land would give enemies much more time to react, as well as the minimal impact landing being much less disorienting)

 

So, I would agree that the Repulsor can certainly deploy from orbit (assuming it has sufficient anti-grav power, which it does (and why wouldn't it? Cawl made it, so it must do!)) and it could potentially deploy in a similar fashion to the Drop Pod, but it would likely not be able to have nearly the same impact (well, it could, but it would probably explode!). The Repulsor obviously has other advantages compared to the Drop Pod (it's not immobile post-deployment, has a massive array of guns, etc) but it is not fit for the same purpose, and that purpose is the primary role that Astartes undertake.

 

 

 

Edit: Just a point about why I'm trying to use math to work things out, it's because it helps to actually ground things. It's very easy to just handwave things (as GW apparently is want to do with anything Cawl, it seems) but to make things at least somewhat based on logic is far more interesting. Primaris already have quite a lot of handwaved elements, and I am loathe to grant them more when it goes against a lot of what is already established.

 

Teleporting, for example - if Cawl made teleportation safe to use, then why wouldn't the Guard start using it? It's safe, so they could use it to start teleporting in Russes behind fortifications! Why not make it so Cawl-pattern Teleporters can no go through Void Shields? There's a lot that could be done, but that would demolish a lot of the setting.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Kallas

[Triszin]

for Primaris lore to also improve

 

perhaps have Primaris Techmarines who are trained by admech and beleive in imperial truth, meld with the 40k techmarines.

 

and they start to produce equipment, independent of hte admech.

 

and perhaps an all new weapon types that marines invented themselves.

 

then they sent the instructions to the admech who made a stc and sent it to the rest of the marines

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Where does Dark Imperium mention Repulsors dropping specifically from orbit? They get dropped in at Rawkus, yes, but the Primaris do have dropships, surely a low level drop is more likely. (Considering something as big as a house, and half as aerodynamic would ever so slightly show up on auspex.)

[Kallas]

Where does Dark Imperium mention Repulsors dropping specifically from orbit? They get dropped in at Rawkus, yes, but the Primaris do have dropships, surely a low level drop is more likely. (Considering something as big as a house, and half as aerodynamic would ever so slightly show up on auspex.)

 

And that's actually a big facet of what makes Drop Pods a potent insertion vehicle: they have a small profile, so they're hard to detect and harder to shoot, and they are faster (in general, if not terminal velocity, as the Repulsor will not have the same focus at the DP, so will have inferior drop capabilities).

 

It definitely seems more likely that an Overlord could drop a Repulsor in a quick fashion, more like an Assault Marine drop from a Thunderhawk/Stormraven than an orbital drop, where the Repulsor doesn't need to counteract massive velocity; but that in turn makes the Overlord susceptible to interception/AA fire.

[Ishagu]

Until they specify its not the case.

 

All the book describes was a thunder as they plummet, probably from a sonic boom. There was no flyer dropping them off.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

 

Erm, an object like a Repuslor falling from Orbit without any powered assistance would still hit speeds of 626 meters per second (assuming it weighs 20+ tons which it would do, or far greater)

Fair, I'm not sure how to account for it (and I had to use a special online calculator for it), so my Repulsor estimations (really, they were guesses) are probably off. I guessed the Repulsor would be more like 30 tonnes (before checking the LR), though a Land Raider weighs 72 tonnes.

 

A Land Raider is 72 tonnes, measures 6.1m wide by 10.3m long by 4.11m high, so a surface area of 62.83m², and with a volume of 285.23m³ - I have no idea about the density, but considering that it's one of the heaviest non-Super Heavy vehicles out there, it would be safe to assume it's pretty damn massive. The Repulsor is likely in the same ballpark, albeit with better mobility due to the grav plates. The calctool.org mentions a brick having a drag coefficient of 2.1, so I'll go with that (they're both bricks). I found a calculator for determining density (LR comes out at 252.4kg/m³).

 

So that makes the Land Raider's terminal velocity actually insanely high at 6.5km/s. So let's work with that. At 6.5km/s, the stopping distance is 9.75km. Let's assume that the Repulsor's grav plates cut that by 2/3rds, so its stopping distance is now 3.25km. At this point my ability to work things out is nonexistent and I'd need someone who actually knows this area of math to help work it out.

 

I would estimate that it's entirely possible for the Repulsor to deploy in a similar vein to the Drop Pod (ie, high speed, rapid deceleration) but that it would either:

- have such high gravity as to render is basically untenable (that is, the g-forces exerted would probably be too much, even for Primaris, considering that it's travelling almost twice as fast as a Drop Pod at the Repulsor's terminal velocity)

- have to slow its descent much, much earlier, making it susceptible to anti-air fire and possible interception, and also have a much lower impact when it does land (rendering the shock and awe aspect basically null, as the additional time to land would give enemies much more time to react, as well as the minimal impact landing being much less disorienting)

 

So, I would agree that the Repulsor can certainly deploy from orbit (assuming it has sufficient anti-grav power, which it does (and why wouldn't it? Cawl made it, so it must do!)) and it could potentially deploy in a similar fashion to the Drop Pod, but it would likely not be able to have nearly the same impact (well, it could, but it would probably explode!). The Repulsor obviously has other advantages compared to the Drop Pod (it's not immobile post-deployment, has a massive array of guns, etc) but it is not fit for the same purpose, and that purpose is the primary role that Astartes undertake.

 

 

 

Edit: Just a point about why I'm trying to use math to work things out, it's because it helps to actually ground things. It's very easy to just handwave things (as GW apparently is want to do with anything Cawl, it seems) but to make things at least somewhat based on logic is far more interesting. Primaris already have quite a lot of handwaved elements, and I am loathe to grant them more when it goes against a lot of what is already established.

 

Teleporting, for example - if Cawl made teleportation safe to use, then why wouldn't the Guard start using it? It's safe, so they could use it to start teleporting in Russes behind fortifications! Why not make it so Cawl-pattern Teleporters can no go through Void Shields? There's a lot that could be done, but that would demolish a lot of the setting.

Teleporters could be in every ship but be restrictive because they use a lot of energy and can only function a few times a day for example. Makes it worthwhile to teleport 10 super elite, genetically engineered soldiers for a decapitating blow against an enemy, not so much a few average Joes.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Until they specify its not the case.

 

All the book describes was a thunder as they plummet, probably from a sonic boom. There was no flyer dropping them off.

Huh? So until someone specifies that Repulsors are NOT dropped from orbit, we assume they are? Surely the opposite should be the case, according to Occam's razor?

 

You're not going to get a sonic boom just dropping from orbit. Perhaps the boom is more likely to be the dropship? The Overlord could easily be supersonic, it is described as a bigger Corvus.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Brother Adelard

[Ishagu]

Have to wait and see. During that particular battle the Inceptors dropped in with debris to take out the air defence cannons before the Repulsors dropped in. I think they came from the space craft in orbit. Edited August 8, 2018 by Ishagu

[Sword Brother Adelard]

You replied before my edit took hold. The Inceptors dropped in first, but by the time the Repulsors are on the ground, so is everything else, intercessors, titans, guard tanks etc.

[Ishagu]

Don't imperial Knights drop in from space? It's how they deployed in Dawn of War 3 lol

[justicarius6]

Everything dropped from space in DoW! :D

 

I think Knights and Titans have specialised landers, pretty much just rockets strapped to them to allow a slow descent.

[Panzer]

 

On the subject of betrayals and what not, I do expect the occasional Primaris to be corrupted in the lore here and there but I have no interest in full traitor chapters or grand betrayals. The Chaos range, if using the DG as an example, will become more divergent which is better for everyone. Let's see the "New Men" of the Emperor's Children.

 

I'm 100% with you on that. I like my traitors as much as the next chaos guy, however for the sake of lore diversity and faction identity I don't want Chaos Marines to be just Space Marines + spikes all over again just this time in Primaris edition.

[Kallas]

Teleporters could be in every ship but be restrictive because they use a lot of energy and can only function a few times a day for example. Makes it worthwhile to teleport 10 super elite, genetically engineered soldiers for a decapitating blow against an enemy, not so much a few average Joes.

It would still be useful, as conflicts involving Astartes are the exception, not the rule. Also, the amounts of energy that Imperial ships can output is pretty immense, that would be quite a jump in power usage, considering that Astartes already can teleport full companies of TDA (assuming they have the suits) en masse.

 

Frankly, I think teleportation should remain rare, used by only the most elite forces (Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Custodes) or through other means (Eldar Webway, Chaos Warp shenanigans, etc). There's not much reason to make it more widely available other than a crutch upon which the already somewhat Mary Sue-d Primaris can rest, it's simply boiling the setting down further for little to no gain (as far as game balance/Primaris improvements are concerned, teleportation does not fix their problems wholesale).

[Triszin]

Don't imperial Knights drop in from space? It's how they deployed in Dawn of War 3 lol

no, the KNights have purpose built mass transport knight landers.

 

if a massive knight fell from orbit it would be alike a meteor hitting the planet.

[Ishagu]

In that game there was rocket boosters in the feet slowing it down lol. Hey, this is 40k. Anything is possible

[Jackalwolf]

Really some well thoughts posted. My two cents:

 

- Regarding failure of primaris to do the same tasks as Astartes due to lack of tools: I'm fully blaming the marketing department in here. My personal approach is suspending disbelief since I assume they DO have much more equipment but Gw policy of not speaking of models without rules (Overlord being the one exception) has massively hindered fluff writers.

 

- Teleportation (I really didn't see this topic coming!): My understanding of the fluff is that when you teleport you're essentially leaping naked through the Warp without a Geller field hence why it's so restrictive to units with outstanding conditioning like grey Knights or custodes, and even then they can die in the Warp or teleport with half their bodies in a concrete wall. I don't think all Primaris should be elevated at that level and another improvement wouldn't be too much to my liking.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

In some fluff all Astartes can teleport. Eternal Crusader by Guy Haley features whole crusades of Black Templars teleporting in power and carapace armour.