Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore

[Ishagu]

Deathwatch Primaris already do it. It should be done sparingly but it should be available. Although my desire for it comes from wanting tactical flexibility on the tabletop.

 

It happens a ot in the fluff, both 40k and HH. Yes it's dangerous and some people are killed during the process at times but it has a purpose. My understanding is that in 40k a lot simply don't trust the tec, hence it isn't as widely used.

[Dracos]

 

 

On the subject of betrayals and what not, I do expect the occasional Primaris to be corrupted in the lore here and there but I have no interest in full traitor chapters or grand betrayals. The Chaos range, if using the DG as an example, will become more divergent which is better for everyone. Let's see the "New Men" of the Emperor's Children.

 

I'm 100% with you on that. I like my traitors as much as the next chaos guy, however for the sake of lore diversity and faction identity I don't want Chaos Marines to be just Space Marines + spikes all over again just this time in Primaris edition.

 

 

Sadly, given their history of creativity, I fully expect to see exactly this in the next Chaos Codex. Like everything else add a couple points add one really cool ability and call it Chaos. (looking at you Xiphon). 

[Dracos]

 

There's no lore reason to restrict Teleportation to a few select Imperium factions. The Primaris should operate with the best technology available. Also, I really don't want to see any Chaos Corruption, it's been done thousands of times. Deathwatch Primaris are already teleporting all over the place, safe to assume Guilliman and Cawl will have anything available to them that is available to the Inquisition.

 

I think Emperor's children are coming, and with them we might get some Improved chaos Astartes, the work of Fabius Bile.

 

This is precisely the exact mentality that loses many of the older fans' respect, and simultaneously refuses to hold reverence to the fluff that came before.  This is the type of behavior that destroys the narrative, character, and setting in the name of making your favorite faction the coolest and best.

 

Please have a little respect for the rest of the fiction.  It's not just Guilliman, Cawl, and their Perfect Primaris band of ultimate knights.

 

 

I respect your love for the fictions history ... but the narrative needs to change, the narrative needs move forward if the game is to grow. For the narrative to exist at all GW needs to make money. It's not an accident GW flagship faction of its flagship game introduced a new direction for the story ... and  at the same time GW sales/profits have shot through the roof the last two years. Respecting the narrative means being a good caretaker for the future as well as the past.

[Jackalwolf]

I'm quite more pumped up than when the thread started. How about bringing ADB, Dan Abnett and McNeill to make a trilogy focused on the unnumbered sons.

 

Bet that would change a lot of minds and hearts

[Kallas]

I respect your love for the fictions history ... but the narrative needs to change, the narrative needs move forward if the game is to grow. For the narrative to exist at all GW needs to make money. It's not an accident GW flagship faction of its flagship game introduced a new direction for the story ... and at the same time GW sales/profits have shot through the roof the last two years. Respecting the narrative means being a good caretaker for the future as well as the past.

I would feel pretty confident saying that Primaris were not the driving force behind a reinvigorated GW. Massively improved community engagement and a better system (8th has its flaws that it still needs to iron out, but it's far better than anything since about 3rd, and is far simpler), with a better focus on updating egregious over/underpowered things (and we've only had 1 / 1 1/2 cycles) - these are far, far more important than some better proportioned, terrible background-ed Marines.

 

Primaris and the plot advancement/shake up will have had an impact, certainly (the models are, on the whole and depending on taste, great), but they are unlikely to be the predominant reason that GW is swimming in success right now. Otherwise, we'd be swamped in Primaris armies: instead, we have great variety, and Primaris are actually fairly standard (possibly even subpar, if we're going by tournament standards) as far as their contribution to making up the numbers of players.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Oooohhh Myyy…..  Let me first apologize for being a bucket of cold water. I was planning on not commenting until I read the last couple of pages concerning teleportation, and dropping Repulsors from low orbit like Drop Pods..... my head was just threatening to implode.... oooohhh myyy!!!

 

Teleportation:

 

I've always found this an interesting concept since the old days of Star Trek... and I like the twist that 40K puts on this.... very rare and very dangerous (there are almost always casualties when using it). By making it more available and safer the 40Kverse comes too close to Star Trekverse….NOOOOOOO...….

 

Repulsors as Drop Pods:

 

 I just finished reading No Know Fear for the second time, so when I saw this Repulsor thing come up, all I could think of was raining Baneblades.  One of the things I like about 40Kverse tech is that I generally only have to suspend disbelief A LOT, and not completely (like I have to do with Star Wars). I can see a low insertion drop (like a pallet drop from a C-130), but a sub-orbital drop....  I've read Dark Imperium once and most of the Crusade anthology and I don't remember reading about Repulsors being dropped from orbit. If any author has done this, all I can say is "shame on you".

 

There is no doubt that currently Primaris are restricted in many ways by the tech available to deliver them on target. I'm sure we will see this improve over time as Primaris gradually replace regular Space Marines and regular Space Marine tech They will have their own Drop Pods, tanks, rocket launchers, melta-cannons, etc..... and hopefully by then the rules will make Space Marines a force to be reckoned with again

 

Star Trek transporters in 40K and raining Baneblades Repulsors…… Oooomyyy…. This is just my opinion.... sorry for being a big bucket of cold water.... I'll go away now...… raining Repulsors…… grumble, grumble...…. 

[Schlitzaf]

The main thing; for me about Primaris in story I want to see it. Little snippets in Codex where Primaris X fights alongside a ‘normal’ Astartes B. And we get a panel of each thinking or monologuing. I bought Dark Imperium haven’t moved past chapter 1, because I don’t care about 30k.

 

But more to should Primaris get X/Y/Z. The main thing I want for Primaris is to allowed for podding. The most important thing I want. Story, aside, is that for me personally. Primaris have finally given me a new unit or units, for my Templar Army. Not Bulky or Niche, not a sidegrade for an iconic unit (Crusader to Raven), or a retro unit (tartaros/cataphracti) I care little for. But a whole new unit, that doesn’t make me ocd. I have issue running Bikers because pure PA Astartes Units or Pure Scout Units just don’t match my vision for Templars.

 

Intercessors because they are explicitly coming about outside traditional training, make sense to not be in a Crusader Squad configuration. Reviars for similar reasons while also being a cool mechanical unit. Aggressors are Centurions that don’t feel overly bulky. And to build, I had reason to not just ignore their release and actually made extensive use of them.

 

They were first new SM Units I made beside SB Configurations and one off characters, sense I lost my codex. If you give me Primaris, I want them to be Primaris. Like the main thing within C:SM that is badly needed;

1) A 33-37 Point melee capable unit with two wounds, and IV (5+) or 2+ SV. Aggressors and Honor Gaurd are both almost there but lack the durability (I.e IV) or numbers (2 Man Cap).

 

The second thing important; Characters, the auxiliary (Librarian, Chappy, And Techmarine) with lesser extent Liutanent need to be redone moderately. But in general I remove the non GravCaptain Primaris Characters and instead. Make it so you can spend around +10-15 points to make any character model into a Primaris version.

 

But yeah, last thing I want to see is Primaris just become NeoVersions of (Marine). Sense even current parallel units, Intercessor/Tacticals are dramatically different in usage and playstyle. Only ones similar are Reivars and ASM

[Kinstryfe]

 

There's no lore reason to restrict Teleportation to a few select Imperium factions. The Primaris should operate with the best technology available. Also, I really don't want to see any Chaos Corruption, it's been done thousands of times. Deathwatch Primaris are already teleporting all over the place, safe to assume Guilliman and Cawl will have anything available to them that is available to the Inquisition.

I think Emperor's children are coming, and with them we might get some Improved chaos Astartes, the work of Fabius Bile.

 

 

This is precisely the exact mentality that loses many of the older fans' respect, and simultaneously refuses to hold reverence to the fluff that came before.  This is the type of behavior that destroys the narrative, character, and setting in the name of making your favorite faction the coolest and best.

 

Why stop there?  Why don't Intercessors take special ammunition?  Why don't Reivers get Custodes Guardian Spears?  Why don't Scout snipers get Vindicaire Exitus Rifles?  Why don't Inceptors mount Cyclone Missile Launchers?  Why don't Primaris Librarians get a Nemesis Dreadknight?  If you can't see the slippery slope you are proposing in erasing other faction's identities to support your contrived Herohammer, then I don't know what to tell you, man. 

 

Please have a little respect for the rest of the fiction.  It's not just Guilliman, Cawl, and their Perfect Primaris band of ultimate knights.

Let's be honest here. If you're not yelling at Space Wolves fans because Leman Russ is supposed to be an Imperial Army Commander, not yelling at Ultramarines players because they aren't really a first founding chapter, and yelling at your Craftworld Eldar opponents because they're being cheesy by arming all their Guardians with Shuriken weapons instead of Lasguns, then you really have no basis to talk about "reverance for the fluff that came before", because your own preferred fluff period isn't the original anyway.

 

Why not have the Astartes get improved by tech? In the game teleportation is no different from deploying via jump pack. Why not let them teleport in? The danger in the tech is now kind of offset by Primaris being quicker to make. Add to that the distrust some chapters have of Primaris, why not shove them in the murder-box and see if teleporting them in does some good. Worst case, you're out a few upstart mutants. Same for adopting other techs. Aside from the totally obvious in universe excuse that the most powerful tech is usually a jealously guarded secret and not often shared, which is why we don't have Primaris Dreadknights and your other examples, why would having more models available to your army be a bad thing? Has it ever really made sense that Astartes, given their mandate, have ever really been limited in what they can use? We're up to at least three types of Dreadnaughts, three types of Terminators, more RH1N0 variants than you can shake a stick at, so why would marines ever turn down an edge to be gained thru human technology?

 

So yeah, this is GW's IP, and we're all just along for the ride. So like you said, respect the fiction. All of the fiction, not just the parts you've decided fit your head canon.

[Boldthreat]

Oooohhh Myyy…..  Let me first apologize for being a bucket of cold water. I was planning on not commenting until I read the last couple of pages concerning teleportation, and dropping Repulsors from low orbit like Drop Pods..... my head was just threatening to implode.... oooohhh myyy!!!

 

Teleportation:

 

I've always found this an interesting concept since the old days of Star Trek... and I like the twist that 40K puts on this.... very rare and very dangerous (there are almost always casualties when using it). By making it more available and safer the 40Kverse comes too close to Star Trekverse….NOOOOOOO...….

 

Repulsors as Drop Pods:

 

 I just finished reading No Know Fear for the second time, so when I saw this Repulsor thing come up, all I could think of was raining Baneblades.  One of the things I like about 40Kverse tech is that I generally only have to suspend disbelief A LOT, and not completely (like I have to do with Star Wars). I can see a low insertion drop (like a pallet drop from a C-130), but a sub-orbital drop....  I've read Dark Imperium once and most of the Crusade anthology and I don't remember reading about Repulsors being dropped from orbit. If any author has done this, all I can say is "shame on you".

 

There is no doubt that currently Primaris are restricted in many ways by the tech available to deliver them on target. I'm sure we will see this improve over time as Primaris gradually replace regular Space Marines and regular Space Marine tech They will have their own Drop Pods, tanks, rocket launchers, melta-cannons, etc..... and hopefully by then the rules will make Space Marines a force to be reckoned with again

 

Star Trek transporters in 40K and raining Baneblades Repulsors…… Oooomyyy…. This is just my opinion.... sorry for being a big bucket of cold water.... I'll go away now...… raining Repulsors…… grumble, grumble...…. 

 

Hey I like cold water.  Come back!

 

First.  Why are we debating if Space Marines should utilize teleportation?  For Heaven's sake Space Marines have been teleporting into battle since I was 12 way back in 3rd Edition.  And what is this idea that teleporting should be saved for more elite and rare forces as posted by another person?  That is preposterous.  Lets respect the lore here... Space Marines are the rare, elite fighting force of the Imperium.  They are genetically bred super soldiers that have had fear removed from their thought process.  They are the exact type of unit that would utilize this dangerous technology.  Even if you made it more reliable for Primaris to teleport into battle due to some specially designed armor; it would still only be a rare, dangerous thing to do in universe.  These are genetically engineered super soldiers, trained from 7 years old to do nothing but accept death and become homicidal maniacs.  They are not "normal" even in their own universe.  I think making them more reliably use an already existing technology will still have them considerably and radically different from anything in Star Trek.

 

Secondly, regarding Repulsors:

 

Three Repulsor grav-tanks fell from the sky like stones, decelerating rapidly and coming to a gentle halt a couple of metres above the ground, right by the flanking Iron Warriors. Their pulsing, aggressive grav impellers knocked the traitors sideways.  

 

 

Now I will concede that it doesn't specifically state where the Repulsors come from.  Do they come from ships like the Rudense:

 

The Rudense was a small ship of a class designed specifically for the Indomitus Crusade. Its Adeptus Astartes complement was set at fifty – not even a full company. But the warriors aboard had an important role, one never seen in the armies of the Space Marines before the Ultima Founding. Slender as a dart, seven hundred metres long and as fast as its shape suggested, the Rudense was heavily armed for its size class, and strengthened to withstand brushes with planetary atmospheres. It was a rapid insertion craft, intended to fight its way through the maelstrom of close-range orbital combat and deliver its payload to the surface directly from the edge of a planet’s atmosphere.

It only had small hangars and no drop pod tubes. The Rudense was something new, and it had taken the enemy by surprise many times. 

 

 

Or do they come from yet another insertion craft, that would launch from this insertion ship, and drop the repulsors like you mention in your C-130 comparison.  Its possible that you may be right.  I think the argument in the face of lacking information could go either way.  But I would wager (and I am assuming here, risk and all) that if the Repulsors can fall from the sky like stones and then come to a gentle halt meters above the ground, then they have the capability to be dropped from ships like the Rudense at the edge of the planets atmosphere... just like the Inceptors.

 

How cool is that.  No longer do the Adeptus Astartes need to rely on one shot delivery vehicles that cannot move and continue to support the ground forces once expended.  Now it can drop Fast Attack Infantry, Heavily armed Infantry Fighting Vehicles and Overlord Dropships directly onto a hostile LZ from the edge of the atmosphere.  It probably can provide its own native fire support as well.  What other vehicles do we really need?  That is cool and new and exciting.  That is a step in the right direction, one that I believe makes more sense then drop-pods.  That appears to me to be taking the Marines back to their roots... A shock assault infantry force meant to get in quickly and get out before being overwhelmed.  That is fluffy and cool.

 

Now I really want to see the Overlord.  I would love if Primaris could buy special artillery barrages from ships like the Rudense in the midst of the game, via unique strategems.  The rest of the army needs to focus on the unique, rare, and badass genetically bred super soldiers, the whole reason for the army.  I personally think heavy vehicles, artillery pieces and the like need to go to the Guard.   Dedicated fighters and bombers need to go to the Navy.  If it doesn't transport Space Marines into battle and further assist them once the first part is complete... then why do I want it?

 

All my opinion of course.  I love discussing warhammer 40k, even if other people vehemently disagree with my thoughts.  Its why we are here

[Kallas]

If you're not yelling at Space Wolves fans because Leman Russ is supposed to be an Imperial Army Commander,

Well, he kind of would have been an Imperial Army Commander during the Great Crusade. That's not necessarily wrong.

 

not yelling at Ultramarines players because they aren't really a first founding chapter,

I mean, they've been a first founding chapter for, what, 30+ years now? And they've been a first founding chapter for much longer than they were not; and that period was a much less defined time. While they may not have started out that way, there are plenty of people who weren't even born when the lore said that Ultramarines weren't first founding.

 

Further, could you expand on that kind of period: what state was the lore in? Were the Primarchs just people? Were Space Marines just criminals hypno-indoctrinated and not actually much better than regular humans?

 

Point being, the established lore has been relatively unchanged for the better part of three decades with generally only relatively minor retcons.

 

and yelling at your Craftworld Eldar opponents because they're being cheesy by arming all their Guardians with Shuriken weapons instead of Lasguns,

Quite a stretch here again, as Lasguns haven't been an option for Eldar (besides Hawks) for over twenty years.

 

then you really have no basis to talk about "reverance for the fluff that came before", because your own preferred fluff period isn't the original anyway.

Some really serious straw manning here bud. There's a big difference between original fluff (Space Marines are just upgunned/upgeared convicts) and established lore (thirty some years of Space Marines being heavily indoctrinated, hugely genetically modified superhumans).

 

Why not have the Astartes get improved by tech? In the game teleportation is no different from deploying via jump pack. Why not let them teleport in?

Because that's the setting! Tech in the Imperium has regressed. STCs are rare and even rarer is a fully functional one found. Having some random just straight up make new ones that are better is completely counter to what the lore has established.

 

And as for in game reasons: then just give them a grav chute insertion rule! You said it yourself, there are already numerous rules that allow non-teleporting deep strike. Go to those, instead of crushing an established-as-rare/dangerous part of the setting.

 

The danger in the tech is now kind of offset by Primaris being quicker to make. Add to that the distrust some chapters have of Primaris, why not shove them in the murder-box and see if teleporting them in does some good. Worst case, you're out a few upstart mutants. Same for adopting other techs. Aside from the totally obvious in universe excuse that the most powerful tech is usually a jealously guarded secret and not often shared, which is why we don't have Primaris Dreadknights and your other examples, why would having more models available to your army be a bad thing? Has it ever really made sense that Astartes, given their mandate, have ever really been limited in what they can use?

You appear to throw your own logic out of the window here:

We can break the fluff (by creating new/better teleportation) but we couldn't possibly break the fluff (by having Primaris/Astartes/Guard/Tyranid Dreadknights) - why would only one be ok, especially considering it's just as egregious if not more (the means to produce Dreadknights more than likely exists, whereas improving upon technology is an established no-no in the Imperium).

 

We're up to at least three types of Dreadnaughts, three types of Terminators, more RH1N0 variants than you can shake a stick at, so why would marines ever turn down an edge to be gained thru human technology?

Why would they turn it down? Because that's what they would do?

 

Take, for example, the Land Raider Crusader. It's not an official STC pattern, but it involves no egregious technological deviations. Twin Linked weaponry existed for millennia before the first LRC was created, with the only real significant difference being the Lascannon generators creating a lot of extra internal space. This is a decent example of in-universe innovation.

 

Cawl rocking up with brand spanking new vehicles, completely unrelated to any STC or previously equipped vehicles is pretty lorebreaking. The tech for grav plates certainly existed, but he created a whole new chassis out of whole cloth.

 

At least the Primaris themselves are, essentially, Astartes. They're test tube Astartes, and Cawl  around with the Primarch organ, but they're still Space Marines, and their armour is still Power Armour (one of the few areas where Imperial tech innovation isn't completely out of the window).

 

So yeah, this is GW's IP, and we're all just along for the ride. So like you said, respect the fiction. All of the fiction, not just the parts you've decided fit your head canon.

There certainly is a lot that has changed over the years, but that doesn't mean that any time something happens it's good or fits well (and conversely it isn't always bad or doesn't fit), but change for changes' sake is usually a pretty easy way to mess things up.

[Kallas]

First. Why are we debating if Space Marines should utilize teleportation? For Heaven's sake Space Marines have been teleporting into battle since I was 12 way back in 3rd Edition. And what is this idea that teleporting should be saved for more elite and rare forces as posted by another person? That is preposterous. Lets respect the lore here... Space Marines are the rare, elite fighting force of the Imperium. They are genetically bred super soldiers that have had fear removed from their thought process. They are the exact type of unit that would utilize this dangerous technology. Even if you made it more reliable for Primaris to teleport into battle due to some specially designed armor; it would still only be a rare, dangerous thing to do in universe. These are genetically engineered super soldiers, trained from 7 years old to do nothing but accept death and become homicidal maniacs. They are not "normal" even in their own universe. I think making them more reliably use an already existing technology will still have them considerably and radically different from anything in Star Trek.

Well, Terminators have been teleporting. Y'know, the only units that have sufficient shielding to withstand even a short trip through the warp. Grey Knights have additional wards and are specifically trained and designed to fight daemons (aka, the inhabitants of the warp); Deathwatch, who are another Chamber Militant of the Inquisition (ie, they also have access to additional warding); and Custodes (the midpoint between Astartes and Primarchs) who are the protectors of the Emperor (and presumably also have extra warding/mental fortitude).

 

So yes, Astartes do teleport, but only when sufficiently protected (Terminator Armour; anti-daemon wards; being more mentally powerful). Teleporting every Marine would increase your risks. Consider it from a game point of view: teleporting carries (or at least used to) more risks, in the form of a 1/6 chance to die, whereas Drop Pods could target a safe zone.

 

I'm not against teleporting, I'm against mass teleporting of units that have been shown to be at too high a risk when doing so.

[Boldthreat]

Oh I agree with much of what you are saying Kallas.  My whole argument is that there is precedent for Space Marines to use teleportation.  It has always been there, and you are accurately showing that the Imperium does have the technology to do it more reliably with your Grey Knight and Deathwatch examples.  If the Primaris are advancing Space Marine tech and ability, then teleportation should be one of the technologies that is on the table to be made more readily available.  

 

I do not necessarily believe we should give Intercessors and Aggressors the ability to teleport.  But I would not be against more reliable teleportation technologies for specific units.  You have stated it yourself, the ability is already there.  Its not lore breaking.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'll say it again, the lore is full of power armoured marines teleporting. Grimaldus was happy to risk it in power armour in Helsreach. (He didn't have to.) Eternal Crusader is full of teleporting Templars of all marks of armour. (It's almost certainly how they retrieved the Armour of Faith and the Black Sword of the dead champion in that book.) I'm also pretty sure a lot of the marines in Chapter 1 of Dark Imperium (When Guilliman gets stabbed by Fulgrim) were second company, and not wearing terminator armour.

 

In short, you don't need fancy armour to teleport, Orks do it wearing random plates and leather.  You just need cojones.
 

[Boldthreat]

I'll say it again, the lore is full of power armoured marines teleporting. Grimaldus was happy to risk it in power armour in Helsreach. (He didn't have to.) Eternal Crusader is full of teleporting Templars of all marks of armour. (It's almost certainly how they retrieved the Armour of Faith and the Black Sword of the dead champion in that book.) I'm also pretty sure a lot of the marines in Chapter 1 of Dark Imperium (When Guilliman gets stabbed by Fulgrim) were second company, and not wearing terminator armour.

 

In short, you don't need fancy armour to teleport, Orks do it wearing random plates and leather.  You just need cojones.

 

 

You are absolutely right.  Anton Narvaez, the Marines Errant special character can specifically teleport into battle, along with his Dark Void Elite units.  All in power armor.  The precedent for Space Marines teleporting is there, and its not reserved for more elite, elite forces.  The Space Marines are the elite force.

[Kallas]

But I would not be against more reliable teleportation technologies for specific units. You have stated it yourself, the ability is already there. Its not lore breaking.

I could get behind that. A unit with sufficient additional shielding would be fine and fitting; giving a generic teleportation ability to any unit (even if limited by stratagem access) would be too much.

 

In short, you don't need fancy armour to teleport, Orks do it wearing random plates and leather. You just need cojones.

Sure, it's possible, but there are massive risks from unshielded teleportation. As I say above, I wouldn't be against a sufficiently protected unit (otherwise it's more "Primaris better with no explanation"), with a decent lore explanation (otherwise it's more of Cawl's new, better-because-Cawl tech).

 

As for previous examples of PA teleportation, sure it's possible but it's usually unwise. Grimaldus is an exceptional individual, even for Astartes. He's also part of a chapter renowned for their incredible zealotry which enables them to counteract warp powers through force of will/belief - that's not a standard ability for Astartes.

 

Yes Astartes, even regular humans, can teleport but there is a great risk of possession/death when teleporting unshielded through the warp. There's a reason ships have gellar fields - bad s*** happens when they go down, and that tends to happen very quickly.

[Ishagu]

I'm literally holding two books from two different authors in my hand and they both feature teleporting Ultramarines in regular power armour.

 

Yes, it shouldn't be common practice as the dangers should remain in the lore, but the ability should be available through strategems to a limited number of units. I think it's pretty thematic

[Dracos]

Who needs teleportation when you can Strike from the Shadows. ;)

 

I would like to “Like” Boldthreat’s post quoting the scene with the Rudense about five times please :) I started in 2nd edition but remember reading the fluff and rules from the infancy of the game and wonder what the responses would have been ... if there had been an internet to gripe on about the games changes back then?

 

Kallas you have many opinions and ideas I respect. I just don’t agree with keeping the game following a dogmatic path in a dystopian universe. That was a popular genre at one time but imo less marketable today. I see the coming of Guilliman and hopefully Russ as a sign of stepping out of the darkness enough to get a glimmer of hope for mankind’s future. I find current that will be more appealing to new consumers than the hopelessness for mankind that was the vision before. Fighting a hopeless fight for what’s right or just survival just isn’t attractive to our culture. Again imo.

 

Guilliman and Primaris are definitely NOT the primary reason for a two year GW upswing. To me though they are a representation of a new company strategy a new approach to expanding their target consumer. Unless he’s a little emo a dystopian universe isn’t going to appeal to little Timmy. Timmy is a child of a new millenum. Literally irl and in game. He wants cool visuals and a chance to be the hero is the story. So you get Space Marines for the wanna be heroes, Knights for those of us who never quit playing with our robots, tanks for tread heads who want a more realistic army and Xenos for those who like various versions of the bad guy. YMMV :)

 

And now a storyline where mankind has just a glimmer of hope. (Until the Nids hit full force and ruin the picnic) :)

 

What I’d really like to see is some Lore in which the Imperium starts addressing the issue of the Nids (and Crons to a lesser degree). Even after his best shot the Imperium has survived the worst Chaos has to offer and Orks are a nuisance but manageable. The Eldar are their own worst enemy even more so the mankind is their own. I’d like to see an Imperium forced to come up with a real answer to the Hive Fleets and I’d (God I can’t believe I’m saying this. 3rd edition forgive me) like to see the return of multiple Primarchs leading the way like the Emperor intended. (I think?).

 

.... and the Tau being part of that solution.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

Oooohhh Myyy…..  Let me first apologize for being a bucket of cold water. I was planning on not commenting until I read the last couple of pages concerning teleportation, and dropping Repulsors from low orbit like Drop Pods..... my head was just threatening to implode.... oooohhh myyy!!!

 

Teleportation:

 

I've always found this an interesting concept since the old days of Star Trek... and I like the twist that 40K puts on this.... very rare and very dangerous (there are almost always casualties when using it). By making it more available and safer the 40Kverse comes too close to Star Trekverse….NOOOOOOO...….

 

Repulsors as Drop Pods:

 

 I just finished reading No Know Fear for the second time, so when I saw this Repulsor thing come up, all I could think of was raining Baneblades.  One of the things I like about 40Kverse tech is that I generally only have to suspend disbelief A LOT, and not completely (like I have to do with Star Wars). I can see a low insertion drop (like a pallet drop from a C-130), but a sub-orbital drop....  I've read Dark Imperium once and most of the Crusade anthology and I don't remember reading about Repulsors being dropped from orbit. If any author has done this, all I can say is "shame on you".

 

There is no doubt that currently Primaris are restricted in many ways by the tech available to deliver them on target. I'm sure we will see this improve over time as Primaris gradually replace regular Space Marines and regular Space Marine tech They will have their own Drop Pods, tanks, rocket launchers, melta-cannons, etc..... and hopefully by then the rules will make Space Marines a force to be reckoned with again

 

Star Trek transporters in 40K and raining Baneblades Repulsors…… Oooomyyy…. This is just my opinion.... sorry for being a big bucket of cold water.... I'll go away now...… raining Repulsors…… grumble, grumble...…. 

 

Hey I like cold water.  Come back!

 

First.  Why are we debating if Space Marines should utilize teleportation?  For Heaven's sake Space Marines have been teleporting into battle since I was 12 way back in 3rd Edition.  And what is this idea that teleporting should be saved for more elite and rare forces as posted by another person?  That is preposterous.  Lets respect the lore here... Space Marines are the rare, elite fighting force of the Imperium.  They are genetically bred super soldiers that have had fear removed from their thought process.  They are the exact type of unit that would utilize this dangerous technology.  Even if you made it more reliable for Primaris to teleport into battle due to some specially designed armor; it would still only be a rare, dangerous thing to do in universe.  These are genetically engineered super soldiers, trained from 7 years old to do nothing but accept death and become homicidal maniacs.  They are not "normal" even in their own universe.  I think making them more reliably use an already existing technology will still have them considerably and radically different from anything in Star Trek.

 

Secondly, regarding Repulsors:

 

Three Repulsor grav-tanks fell from the sky like stones, decelerating rapidly and coming to a gentle halt a couple of metres above the ground, right by the flanking Iron Warriors. Their pulsing, aggressive grav impellers knocked the traitors sideways.  

 

 

Now I will concede that it doesn't specifically state where the Repulsors come from.  Do they come from ships like the Rudense:

 

The Rudense was a small ship of a class designed specifically for the Indomitus Crusade. Its Adeptus Astartes complement was set at fifty – not even a full company. But the warriors aboard had an important role, one never seen in the armies of the Space Marines before the Ultima Founding. Slender as a dart, seven hundred metres long and as fast as its shape suggested, the Rudense was heavily armed for its size class, and strengthened to withstand brushes with planetary atmospheres. It was a rapid insertion craft, intended to fight its way through the maelstrom of close-range orbital combat and deliver its payload to the surface directly from the edge of a planet’s atmosphere.

It only had small hangars and no drop pod tubes. The Rudense was something new, and it had taken the enemy by surprise many times. 

 

 

Or do they come from yet another insertion craft, that would launch from this insertion ship, and drop the repulsors like you mention in your C-130 comparison.  Its possible that you may be right.  I think the argument in the face of lacking information could go either way.  But I would wager (and I am assuming here, risk and all) that if the Repulsors can fall from the sky like stones and then come to a gentle halt meters above the ground, then they have the capability to be dropped from ships like the Rudense at the edge of the planets atmosphere... just like the Inceptors.

 

How cool is that.  No longer do the Adeptus Astartes need to rely on one shot delivery vehicles that cannot move and continue to support the ground forces once expended.  Now it can drop Fast Attack Infantry, Heavily armed Infantry Fighting Vehicles and Overlord Dropships directly onto a hostile LZ from the edge of the atmosphere.  It probably can provide its own native fire support as well.  What other vehicles do we really need?  That is cool and new and exciting.  That is a step in the right direction, one that I believe makes more sense then drop-pods.  That appears to me to be taking the Marines back to their roots... A shock assault infantry force meant to get in quickly and get out before being overwhelmed.  That is fluffy and cool.

 

Now I really want to see the Overlord.  I would love if Primaris could buy special artillery barrages from ships like the Rudense in the midst of the game, via unique strategems.  The rest of the army needs to focus on the unique, rare, and badass genetically bred super soldiers, the whole reason for the army.  I personally think heavy vehicles, artillery pieces and the like need to go to the Guard.   Dedicated fighters and bombers need to go to the Navy.  If it doesn't transport Space Marines into battle and further assist them once the first part is complete... then why do I want it?

 

All my opinion of course.  I love discussing warhammer 40k, even if other people vehemently disagree with my thoughts.  Its why we are here

 

 

I respect and admire your sand brother.... even if I almost totally disagree with you. Okay, you've sucked me back in..... but Ooohhh Myyy

 

On a positive point, I do like the Rudense ship concept a lot.... very reminiscent Heinlein's Starship Troopers and I don't have to suspend belief more than a lot.

 

When it comes to non-transport vehicles such as tanks, artillery, flyers, etc..... this was mostly fine back in the day when 40K was strictly a skirmish game....mostly. Although 8th Ed has brought the basic game back to a certain sanity level there is still a need for infantry support. Unless limited to a few combat scenarios, Space Marines are not immune to classic combat doctrines of infantry support.... unless you  want them to die (which is oaky doaky with your opponent). I personally like weapon systems like the Predator, Whirlwind (in the old days THE go to piece for anti-personnel and anti-air support.... I love it still), and even the Xiphon Interceptor from FW is super cool. Also, there are many gunheads and airheads among Space Marine players, so let's not leave them out. 

 

My main concern when it comes to SM/Primaris  vehicles, since GW is purported to be a model company and not a game company (no need to debate this point as it belongs to it's own subject post) is that vehicle models are going to get silly out of hand (like it was starting to do with basic SM's and is well established within the HH range of models) once the basic support vehicle are introduced for the Primaris and the classic SM vehicles are phased out  …. …. We will start to see vehicle models that are both silly and introduced at an out of control pace.

 

I have no problem per say with Primaris using teleporters. If they currently can't (need to check with my SM Codex, as I seldom use it anyway) then I think that was just an "oops" on the part of the GW writers and editors. I just want it to stay dangerous... and not become safe like the safety council infested Star Trekverse. In spite of the improved tech that Cawl and Guilliman have brought to the 40Kverse (which I mostly like) it is still the Dark Age of Technology and should remain so. 

 

Also, I don't want to see Primaris Space Marines and their gear expanded and improved to the point where they become nigh unstoppable (I know some of you have NO problem with this, and you know who you are)…. and become, I believe the term is Mary Sue Marines (a term  that I've also seen overused and abused, so I'm not as sure of it's meaning as I used to be).

 

Lastly, and I don't want to get too far into this (as it has it's  own can of worms post) but when it comes to the new story line bringing a glimmer of hope into the grimdark of the 40Kverse, I like this... but I don't think it should go too far. The Dark Ages of history was not without hope nor should the Dark Age of 40K. The Dark Age grimness of 40K is still highly marketable and doesn't need to be totally changed.

 

Once again all is just my opinion..... Cheers

[Ishagu]

Brother boldtheat was very eloquent with his opinions and it all gets my hyped for the future. Now I'm hoping we don't have to wait long!

[Dracos]

Story wise Stargate wrote themselves into a corner more often than Star Trek ever did imo. Definitely a device that can ruin a good story if mishandled. I love Boldthreat take on the Repulsor. Unfortunate it doesn’t help on the gaming table - where GW makes its money. The demand for a Primaris transport (not everyone can play Raven Guard) that can deliver Aggressors, Assault Hellblaster and Intercessors HAS to become impossible to ignore at some point.

 

... and “new” weapons like Thermal Spears on Aggresors.

 

 

Probably turning that one into a signature until it happens (never) lol :)

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thermal Spears …..hmmmm…… I LIKE IT Raining Baneblades Repulsors…… grumble, grumble...….

[Endova]

I'd have 100% less problems with Primaris Marines and transports if they could fit in existing vehicles, and the old Astartes could fit in Repulsors. As has been said, these are simply rules restrictions. My frustration, and frankly, disgust, stems from how thinly veiled an attempt this is to get players to buy the Repulsor. There's no good justification for for any of these restrictins beyond Rhinos costing $40 and Repulsors $80. If the next Chapter Approved rectifies some of these idiotic restraints, I might be a little less angry about the current state of affairs.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'd have 100% less problems with Primaris Marines and transports if they could fit in existing vehicles, and the old Astartes could fit in Repulsors. As has been said, these are simply rules restrictions. My frustration, and frankly, disgust, stems from how thinly veiled an attempt this is to get players to buy the Repulsor. There's no good justification for for any of these restrictins beyond Rhinos costing $40 and Repulsors $80. If the next Chapter Approved rectifies some of these idiotic restraints, I might be a little less angry about the current state of affairs.

 

I'm right there with you brother …..but sadly, I just don't think that is gonna happen Primaris are going to be the new normal and old Space Marines and most (if not all) of their equipment will be phased out over time …. We may eventually see a Primaris version of the Rhino for saaayy maybe $60. Pricing based on supply and demand is long gone in favor of 'what the market will bear.' GW will continue to increase prices until their profits shrink. Adam Smith is dead..... long live Attila the Hun

[Ishagu]

I'd have 100% less problems with Primaris Marines and transports if they could fit in existing vehicles, and the old Astartes could fit in Repulsors. As has been said, these are simply rules restrictions. My frustration, and frankly, disgust, stems from how thinly veiled an attempt this is to get players to buy the Repulsor. There's no good justification for for any of these restrictins beyond Rhinos costing $40 and Repulsors $80. If the next Chapter Approved rectifies some of these idiotic restraints, I might be a little less angry about the current state of affairs.

The Repulsor would sell better if it could transport old Marines. I think they are making a distinctive range and that's the main reason.

[Guest MistaGav]

It's a bit predictable but I quite like where the Primaris lore is going with the Dark Angels. They are proving their worth despite the Dark Angels higher ups being dismissive of them (They literally call Primaris bullet shields!) and they are making their way through the ranks. They will no doubt be a part of the Deathwing and Ravenwing as well as learning more about the chapters history including the fallen. I do think the DA are setting themselves up for a fallen war with the Primaris and the successor chapters included too.

Personally I still can't see GW and the lore phasing out the classic space marines especially the vehicles. There is just too much lore and recognizable patterns, marks and whatever for GW to just get rid of and they still are functional so I can't see any discernible reason why.