Guest Triszin Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 The Repulsor would sell better if it could transport old Marines. I think they are making a distinctive range and that's the main reason. I think that distinction will only last a a few years before they open up. Especially once a main battle tank and a fast insertion vehicle is available, as even old armies will want the new delivery mechanisms. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5141453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Sadly, given their history of creativity, I fully expect to see exactly this in the next Chaos Codex. Like everything else add a couple points add one really cool ability and call it Chaos. (looking at you Xiphon). To be fair, it's hard to blame that phenomenon entirely on uncreative writers or designers when every Imperial release is inevitably accompanied by the chorus of 'can Chaos use this?/when will Chaos get this?/Chaos don't have this and it's so unfair' type comments. If the message GW constantly get is that there's demand for 'Spiky Imperial' (which personally, I would certainly like to see less of), is it really surprising when they add more 'Spiky Imperial' units? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5141494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
justicarius6 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Why would a primaris marine have to be a gunner/pilot for anything? It's already faintly ridiculous that fully armoured marines drive/fly or are gunners anyhow but to now have just certain vehicles restricted to being piloted by primaris is even worse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5141590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Sadly, given their history of creativity, I fully expect to see exactly this in the next Chaos Codex. Like everything else add a couple points add one really cool ability and call it Chaos. (looking at you Xiphon). To be fair, it's hard to blame that phenomenon entirely on uncreative writers or designers when every Imperial release is inevitably accompanied by the chorus of 'can Chaos use this?/when will Chaos get this?/Chaos don't have this and it's so unfair' type comments. If the message GW constantly get is that there's demand for 'Spiky Imperial' (which personally, I would certainly like to see less of), is it really surprising when they add more 'Spiky Imperial' units? 100% agreed. It's one of those cases where it's probably smarter in the long run to not listen to the community. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5141652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted August 9, 2018 Author Share Posted August 9, 2018 In short, you don't need fancy armour to teleport, Orks do it wearing random plates and leather. You just need cojones. You are absolutely right. Anton Narvaez, the Marines Errant special character can specifically teleport into battle, along with his Dark Void Elite units. All in power armor. The precedent for Space Marines teleporting is there, and its not reserved for more elite, elite forces. The Space Marines are the elite force. I mean... You're right and wrong. Think about it. Narváez, cojones... The common denominator is not being space marines, it's being a crazy Spanish bastard. Totally not saying it cuz I'm a crazy Spaniard but if you ask me if I'm willing to jump through literally hell covered only by my hair chest, the answer won't be no. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5141722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Why would a primaris marine have to be a gunner/pilot for anything? It's already faintly ridiculous that fully armoured marines drive/fly or are gunners anyhow but to now have just certain vehicles restricted to being piloted by primaris is even worse. Marines fly/pilot things because having superhuman reflexes/coordination/resistance to G-forces, etc is very useful. Restricted to Primaris is, however as you say, pretty silly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5141780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Sadly, given their history of creativity, I fully expect to see exactly this in the next Chaos Codex. Like everything else add a couple points add one really cool ability and call it Chaos. (looking at you Xiphon). To be fair, it's hard to blame that phenomenon entirely on uncreative writers or designers when every Imperial release is inevitably accompanied by the chorus of 'can Chaos use this?/when will Chaos get this?/Chaos don't have this and it's so unfair' type comments. If the message GW constantly get is that there's demand for 'Spiky Imperial' (which personally, I would certainly like to see less of), is it really surprising when they add more 'Spiky Imperial' units? Brother I have less issue with them having a spiky version of anything (dating from the Heresy at least) Imperium, than I do that it has to smell of the same cheese I find on Eldar (meaning for some reason for 20+ years some Codex just float higher than the Astartes every edition I've personally played in). Bikes, Flyers, Dreadnoughts etc all have bonus abilities at a minimal cost for said upgrade and an occasional BS flaw attached I say BS because usually it falls within the Chaos playstyle anyway. Where's my Imperial version of the Demon Prince? my Spite spam? my Fiends, my Helbrutes, my Defiler? Apologies ... this is a twenty plus year old wound that has never healed. I'm not a hater (sans Nurgle), I'd play Chaos, I just don't like the conversion work to make them look right. I just feel cheated when I see every comparable unit be more effective in the Chaos Codex (yes I'm sure there must be occasional exceptions but by the large) ... and that's enough of that. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5141860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endova Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 I suppose for Daemon Prince analogues we're getting Primarchs? As far as Hellbrutes and Defilers, maybe the Imperium could get some new exclusive dreadnoughts Dreadnoughts? (You know, assuming they can actually make Dreadnoughts worth taking.) I guess the problem is, as long as Chaos exists, man and Astartes can fall to its temptations and bring any of their cool toys with them. There are those rare few, like the Custodes or the Grey Knights that are effectively immune, but that doesn't fix anybody's codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5141895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Dreadnoughts just need to be able to move and shoot. Right now, the biggest issue with dreads is the fact they take penalties for moving and firing weapons which promotes only extremes which isn't very marine and thus doesn't allow them to fully leverage their benefits (a walking tank that can then get into the enemy lines and cause havoc...something Wraithlords do better and even then only aren't really taken because there are better options in eldar and not because they are bad which I find hilarious: "Nothing is bad but why take the less good option?"). In regards to Primaris, their lore has all sorts of usual retcons that start to cause storywise tears and warps. Certainly Centurions were a contentious addition to the game but again, I was among the few who liked their design visually (though I admit, they do have a certain derpsequa about them). To be honest, Centurions were meant to be an Imperium version of some units in chaos, mainly oblitarators. To be honest though the argument about chaos is somewhat flat as they have as much redundancy as marines do with units. I mean, the defiler is a unique piece of "russ meets dreadnought on a drunken night" but it did always feel a little disjointed (Was it artillery? Was it a melee monster?) and chaos spawn or chosen really are just their version of vanguard veterans really. There are analogues though not directly. With regards to Primaris however, we have to now explain why Cawl wasn't given these things out. Seems kind of important to help the Imperium here. Nope, he stayed in hiding and GW are trying to hide things under the rug with "Oh these were Primaris all along" which is now been used a little too much now. When it came to the Land Raiders and various tanks, I could see where they came from: Land Raiders weren't hard to modify really and since they are an STC, it then becomes easy to get them around. Primaris however, well I would say it is too much at once to be easily magic in. Centurions are just one unit really, so not a major deal breaker and not a hard retcon really. Primaris however are massive as they now suddenly appear and not only help reinforce ALL chapters in the Imperium (that is a lot of marines) but also spares to form ENTIRE CHAPTERS? Along with having various pieces of gear we all know but it is just better in everyway? (almost feels like Eldar made Primaris). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5141905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknife Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 With regards to Primaris however, we have to now explain why Cawl wasn't given these things out. Seems kind of important to help the Imperium here. Nope, he stayed in hiding and GW are trying to hide things under the rug with "Oh these were Primaris all along" which is now been used a little too much now. When it came to the Land Raiders and various tanks, I could see where they came from: Land Raiders weren't hard to modify really and since they are an STC, it then becomes easy to get them around. Primaris however, well I would say it is too much at once to be easily magic in. Centurions are just one unit really, so not a major deal breaker and not a hard retcon really. Primaris however are massive as they now suddenly appear and not only help reinforce ALL chapters in the Imperium (that is a lot of marines) but also spares to form ENTIRE CHAPTERS? But it already says why Cawl did not release the primaris earlier due to needing RG ascent. Having been in stasis the entire time kind of answers why no primaris were seen. The imperium is very bureaucratic. Also as he has been working on it for 10000 years then it does seem pretty plausible that he created enough for a crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 With regards to Primaris however, we have to now explain why Cawl wasn't given these things out. Seems kind of important to help the Imperium here. Nope, he stayed in hiding and GW are trying to hide things under the rug with "Oh these were Primaris all along" which is now been used a little too much now. When it came to the Land Raiders and various tanks, I could see where they came from: Land Raiders weren't hard to modify really and since they are an STC, it then becomes easy to get them around. Primaris however, well I would say it is too much at once to be easily magic in. Centurions are just one unit really, so not a major deal breaker and not a hard retcon really. Primaris however are massive as they now suddenly appear and not only help reinforce ALL chapters in the Imperium (that is a lot of marines) but also spares to form ENTIRE CHAPTERS? But it already says why Cawl did not release the primaris earlier due to needing RG ascent. Having been in stasis the entire time kind of answers why no primaris were seen. The imperium is very bureaucratic. I'm puzzled how people accept all the crazyness of the Imperium, including tech regression, but can't seem to accept this kind of thing ... especially since we have similar stupid things thanks to bureaucracy even today in the real world lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Tech regression really went down the drain now. And now it will be even more ridiculous for chapters to be making OGmarines. It's a waste of resources and counter productive. 100 years have passed since the rift, and most chapters took heavy casualties. Replenishment with Primaris is the fastest way to replace them. So next codex SM should be only Primaris Marines considering the timeline. It's bull:cuss otherwise. Also start killing off OGmarine heroes because having an inferior SM commanding a chapter of Primaris (since OGmarines can't be "upgraded") will be weird lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 You don't kill your veteran soldiers when new recruits come in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 You don't kill your veteran soldiers when new recruits come in. Yes but they eventually fade out, especially when (Tyranids, fallen, 1ksons, daemons, *insert another enemy*) come and wipe out most of the old Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 The idea of this thread is to improve the current Primaris fluff, not to make it 10 times worse by suggesting classic marines should all be killed off and replaced :lol: Classic marines aren’t going anywhere, it’s probably best if you accept this and move on. If rumours are to be believed you will have more Primaris kits coming to keep you happy in the next couple of years, you shouldnt let the continued presence of classic marines ruin this for you, because it very strange you would be bothered that they are still around. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 You don't kill your veteran soldiers when new recruits come in.On behalf of all us old Veterans, I approve of this message. ;) I'm puzzled how people accept all the crazyness of the Imperium, including tech regression, but can't seem to accept this kind of thing ... especially since we have similar stupid things thanks to bureaucracy even today in the real world lolI can’t like this more than once, so I’m quoting it. Selective Suspension of Belief Syndrome? I’m a strong proponent of a Primaris Codex and moving the narrative forward but even I see logic in a institution, reluctant is to tame a descriptor, to accept Primaris until say a 1000 years of proving their resistance to the draw of the Warp. To boot, I think a Chaos free Primaris makes interesting tension between regular Marines and the new even a thousand years later. Here’s a hard one. I also think it would create interesting drama if at least one maybe two Primarchs forced their Chapter to adopt a “Suck itnup boys, Primaris are the future.” Like the standard Marine Codex basic Primaris units. Primaris Codex would have access to basic Marine units. But each have units that were exclusively their own - such as vehicles (for whatever stupid reason). Maybe a Rule of Three version for a Keyword that allowed intermingling of the two Codexes? Spit balling here ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Killing off lorewise. Cmon... Do I need to spell everything out? Even commanders die in battle. And it's a weird dynamic. Chapters like the blood angels 200 to 300 hundred years down the line should be 99% primaris. I think it's funny you guys want to sell the cake and also eat it. OG marines will be around, just like the Empire line is in AoS. It will become a legacy army. Unless GW mainstreams HH and the scouring. Lorewise. Guilliman reaches Terra. Emperor implants the plans to make better marines on him, psychic shenanigans, Guilliman assembles a team of Martian finest boom Primaris. No need to reek so much of spiritual Liege that knew 10k before that he would need better marines. Please GW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 New classic marines are still being made at this point in the setting, so it’s not just a case of everyone dying eventually. Also, GW appear to consider HH mainstream if the recent financial results report is anything to go by. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Primaris chapters have no reason to do OGmarines HH isn't that mainstream. It's popular, but not mainstream. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Let's not drag old marine arguments into this. The classic marine range is very much complete, but Primaris have lots of room to grow. That's all there is to it really. The lore will be further developed and when we become familiar with new characters and stories we'll grow to like them more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Its a fact that OGmarines have been made redundant in universe. Like Dracos, I am in favour of just having a Primaris codex with a more complete range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 But at the same time GW has to have a way to not alienate veteran customers who want their toys also included in the narrative as it advances. That’s why I propose two Codexes. (Seriously, what’s one more Marine Codex anyway lol). If I played OGMarines I’d be pissed st how quickly the Codex become Underpowered. Other than introducing (a rule for infiltrating Reivers) 2 new Primaris units and models a year all I want to see is writing that continues to imbed PMarines into the current/future narrative I’d be amused if the OGmarines got a twist on the Long War stratagem and Primaris didn’t. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 It’s not a fact, it's just your opinion. And based on the facts we have, new classic marines still being made, and with large numbers still around, your opinion appears to be wrong. As for HH, GW themselves seem to think is it mainstream, but who are they to disagree with you though :lol: :lol: :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Mate they are an inferior product. It's a fact. And HH is not mainstream. When they hit the shelves of a Warhammer store then it will be mainstream. Primaris are superior in every aspect to OGMarines. Faster Stronger, easier to implant gene seed, making chapter reinforcement faster. If that does not make OGMarines redundant, I don't know what does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 If we're going to start doubling down on our assertions without providing justification, then I'm going to have to fire up the melta. =][= Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349377-ideas-to-improve-upon-primaris-marines-lore/page/6/#findComment-5142122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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