Ideas to improve upon Primaris Marines lore

[Guest Triszin]

I mean, another thing that could improve primaris and marine lore in general.

 

If they find a way to "primarize" the old marines, add the missing organs, do the extra implants.

 

maybe it only works for marines under a certain age (sub 600 years old).

 

then everyone else thats too old, become highly skilled veterans, or end up in dreadnuaghts over time.

 

----

the new dreadnaught burns up the marine faster, bjorn will still be bjorn in 1000 years, but that new marine entombed will get neural feedback and burn up in a few hundred

[Panzer]

Chapters like the blood angels 200 to 300 hundred years down the line should be 99% primaris.

 

 

Actually Blood Angels are a bad example here since it's explicitly mentioned that they are creating regular Scouts alongside of new Primaris recruits to refill their ranks twice as fast after the Devastation of Baal. So considering how long Marines are in active duty and there is no mention of them stopping to create regular Scouts we should be seeing regular Blood Angel Marines for quite a while. ^^

 

 

About the regular Marines phasing out in general ... well I do believe it'll happen and they'll become a legacy army eventually, however I hope they'll stick around to highten the difference between regular Marines and Primaris since if there are only Primaris around at some point then the whole "bigger and better" thing basically disappears into nothingness. Gotta have something to compare to if you want to be better after all.

[Sete]

I would love to have a Primaris Helbrecth and Grimaldus to be honest. But I don't see it happening.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

To be honest, Centurions were meant to be an Imperium version of some units in chaos, mainly oblitarators.

 

This is one I just never got, it just seems to be the worst excess of the 'Chaos players always complain about everything' phenomenon. The only similarity between Obliterators and Centurions is 'big heavy weapons guy' (an idea hardly unique to Chaos). The USP of Obliterators is the switchable weapons, not size (hell, the first generation models were pretty small). Centurions launched with different gear/options, different stats and a lack of the most striking feature of Obliterators. It's like criticising a Dreadknight for being an 'Imperial Carnifex', just because they were both monstrous creatures, it just doesn't add up.

[Panzer]

Yeah if anything Obliterators are super chaos-ified shooty terminators. ^^

[chapter master 454]

 

 

To be honest, Centurions were meant to be an Imperium version of some units in chaos, mainly oblitarators.

 

This is one I just never got, it just seems to be the worst excess of the 'Chaos players always complain about everything' phenomenon. The only similarity between Obliterators and Centurions is 'big heavy weapons guy' (an idea hardly unique to Chaos). The USP of Obliterators is the switchable weapons, not size (hell, the first generation models were pretty small). Centurions launched with different gear/options, different stats and a lack of the most striking feature of Obliterators. It's like criticising a Dreadknight for being an 'Imperial Carnifex', just because they were both monstrous creatures, it just doesn't add up.

 

 

I drew that correlation because it fitted the most. It still stands as they were meant to be the counter-parts of each other but not exact copies. Both have advantages and disadvantages but generally you can sum both up in the same brief: "Slow Heavy Armour Infantry with Big Guns". They do indeed have differences and different hooks to take them.

 

In regards to Primaris, improving their lore is to talk about their introduction. Right now, we are talking about their lore with it being version 1.5 where we need to talk about their lore 1.0 as that is what caused issues. Right now GW are "patching" their lore to fit them in better and if we say "oh but this explains it NOW" then we have issues. Why were Primaris a contentious add? Well they were part of the MASSIVE amount of lore upheaval that occurred with 8th edition really.

Lets be honest here, 7th edition was at the "peak" of stagnation not just in gameplay but in lore. Nothing was going anywhere really bar the rulebook pointing our timeline at "2 minutes to midnight", but that was the case for a couple of editions.

Then the 8th edition Nation attacked.

Suddenly MANY core elements of 40k universe got slammed. We are talking many MANY retcons and also massive foreshadowed events that then suddenly happened. Cadia getting destroyed. Gulliman revived (through less than stellar means). A swathe of new technology and reinforcement for astartes not seen since the great crusade. A lot of new key players suddenly appearing in the story stage.

That is a lot of big changes to happen all at once with...well lets be honest not much warning really. We knew they would happen but...all at once? all relating to one another? at this time of year? Localised entirely within your kitchen?

 

So possibly Primaris are the scapegoat really. While it is contented hotly about their visuals (which possibly amplifies the effect), they really were the easiest target to lambaste out of all the lore changes that occurred as the rest were all kind of just hanging there about to happen. Just when they all happened it just caused massive shockwaves not just in universe but within communities. The lore changes I believe have been overwhelmingly positive with the forward direction, actually having progress is a good idea as now we can reach a new point where we will spin wheels.

I know I sound like I change my opinion with every post but...I have some very mixed opinions on things in 40k. Then again, isn't that the standard 40k fan? XD

[Panzer]

 

Suddenly MANY core elements of 40k universe got slammed. We are talking many MANY retcons and also massive foreshadowed events that then suddenly happened. Cadia getting destroyed. Gulliman revived (through less than stellar means). A swathe of new technology and reinforcement for astartes not seen since the great crusade. A lot of new key players suddenly appearing in the story stage.

That is a lot of big changes to happen all at once with...well lets be honest not much warning really. We knew they would happen but...all at once? all relating to one another? at this time of year? Localised entirely within your kitchen?

 

So possibly Primaris are the scapegoat really. While it is contented hotly about their visuals (which possibly amplifies the effect), they really were the easiest target to lambaste out of all the lore changes that occurred as the rest were all kind of just hanging there about to happen. Just when they all happened it just caused massive shockwaves not just in universe but within communities. The lore changes I believe have been overwhelmingly positive with the forward direction, actually having progress is a good idea as now we can reach a new point where we will spin wheels.

I know I sound like I change my opinion with every post but...I have some very mixed opinions on things in 40k. Then again, isn't that the standard 40k fan? XD

 

 

Except that there aren't many, if any, retcons due Primaris or lore advancements in 8th edition so far.

I agree on the rest tho. I'm sure many people got simply overwhelmed by GW changing the status quo that much all of a sudden and Primaris made for a great scapegoat to focus all the blame on. I however don't think that applies to everyone who dislikes Primaris. ^^

[Blindhamster]

I'd expect "current" marines to be phased out in maybe 10 years time. Not a rapid turnaround on it. Probably a couple of editions down the line if it happens.

Blood Angels as per devastation of baal has Dante stating all future marines would be primaris, however the codex then instantly retconned that to have them getting hundreds of new initiates. The current assumption is that those initiates are all regular marines, because there is no equivalent unit for primaris. It remains to be seen exactly what happens with new primaris that are made in the chapter instead of handed over directly from Guilliman/Cawl. But for now, Robbie is correct, there is no evidence to say any of those new initiates are primaris specifically (although the question could be asked - if none of them are, where are the primaris initiates specified?)

Regardless, we have likely got a long period of time with the two times being side by side and the sooner everyone on both sides of the fence accepts it, the better.

 

I dunno if a primaris standalone codex would be good or not myself.

[Ishagu]

A fresh, streamlined Primaris codex with more unit variation, unique strats and psychic powers would be brilliant, imo. I can't wait for the day it comes.

[Boldthreat]

Well I kind of want to take Sete's argument a little further here.  This is not a miniature debate, or a product debate.  Or a debate about our respective loyalties to the existing and traditional line.  This is 100 percent a Lore debate and its probably the most charged or disputed aspect of the Primaris and their new lore.

 

I think the argument about the Primaris being the future of the Space Marines is very clear.  Yes, we have an anomaly in the Blood Angels codex.  It really has done a disservice to the whole idea of the Primaris marines being put forth everywhere else.

 

Why would the Blood Angels make 500 new astartes from their traditional assets?  They were completely rebuilt with Primaris post their war on Baal.  They are given the technology to produce Primaris at the same time they are given Primaris replacements.  No one is arguing that they should not still utilizing the surviving veterans left to them prior to that change.  No one is saying that if there were 500 aspirants already going through the process shouldn't continue their growth and go that route.  And if they do as stated in their codex... the question has to be asked on why?  Why would they continue producing an inferior product to fill their very limited number of available billets?

 

The important part is that we are actually years and years removed from that juncture.  I would never argue that existing chapters should not have the option to field traditional marines.  However I would argue that 200 to 300 years past that event, traditional marines would be rare.  I would argue if that they existed at all, it would be in the veteran company or in specialist roles.  There should have been a natural evolution at that point where Primaris marines took over.  Considering the state of the current setting, we should be close.  Real close.  The lore has been clear... space marine chapters were wiped out in the 13th Black Crusade and the coming of the Great Rift.  If they weren't wiped out, they were severely depleted and on their last legs. 

 

The Space Wolves had their home system ravaged by the Thousand Sons.  The Blood Angels (and their successors) almost died to a man if it werent for Guilliman.  The Ultramarines were fighting a losing battle on Maccrage against the Black Legion.  The Imperial Fists almost lost the Phalanx.  The Crimson Fists were fighting another losing battle on Rynn's World, this time against deamons.  The White Consuls lost their homeworld!  The Executioners were already depleted if not dead due to their penitent crusade.  The Scythes of the Emperor were already flirting with extinction.  The Marines Errant lost the vast majority of their geneseed.  The traditional space marines were dying in last stands all over the Imperium.  And these are just the Chapters GW doesnt want to die!

 

In every instance these chapters were significantly rebuilt with Primaris marines, 200 years before constant crusading in the biggest crusade since the Great Crusade itself... in the biggest galaxy changing event since the birth of Slaanesh!  Not only do I find it highly rare that any Chapter have traditional space marines existing, I would find it rare that we would have a vast portion of the initial batches of Primaris left.  Then you add the Plague Wars!  How many Ultramarines are dead in that event?  Lets give credit to the other factions in the setting here.  The Death Guard aren't easy.  Especially when led by their Primarch... he is literally Death personified.  I would hate to not have the Primaris upgrades in that fight!  Heck if they killed of Uriel Ventris and Calgar I wouldn't bat an eye.  Its bad out there.

 

Are we really supposed to accept that the Blood Angels would keep producing an asset that is more than inferior to their current product?  An asset they have realistically lost the ability to control?  (Note, I think the other shoe will drop for the Primaris Blood Angels, its just a matter of time).  But right now... that is NOT the case.  You need everyone at 100 percent, and you need it yesterday.  You can't tell me that Dante or Seth would not welcome the production of astartes that are currently devoid of the curse they have been actively combating their entire existence in the lore.  Even if they ultimately hated the idea.  Remember, even the Hammers of Dorn wanted to tell the powers that be to go pound sand on the modified Space Marines.  But the Custodes pretty much told them, "its the will of the Emperor, adapt or die... as traitors".  Whoah... thats powerful.

 

Think about that.  Even if you accepted the idea that the setting is too backwards to accept heretical change to technology or the almost worshiped imperial dogma on bloodlines of the space marines.  The guys who guard the emperor, and claim to still speak with him are telling everyone that Primaris are the will of the Emperor, and if you don't accept that dogma you will be killed as traitors!  Whoah!!!  That is not ignored lightly in any understanding of the fluff!

 

Lets be clear here.  No one wants to just shove Primaris down anyone's throat (except for the Custodes in lore lol).  No one wants to remove peoples armies.  But lets not ignore the direction the fluff appears to be taking us here.  I do not think the lore is bringing us to a Primaris or Traditional decision.  Its bringing us to an inevitable evolution of Imperial Space Marines.  Does that mean traditional astartes are extinct yet?  No, but as complete armies?  Yes.. I would think so.  And we should be close to that  (outside your typical warp shenanigans).  Heck Greater Ultramar has 10 Chapters defending it now.  90+ Percent of those Space Marines are Primaris.  More than 90 percent of 10,000 Marines!

 

Again, this is all my opinion.  I am not GW and with more information my entire outlook could change.  I am not opposed to either direction we could go here.  I just think when you read the Gathering Storm, you read Dark Imperium, you read the 8th Edition Rulebook and everything coming out.  This isn't an idea born from a certain group of Primaris lovers.  This is the inevitable conclusion being shown by the new lore.  At least I think.  Im wrong a lot, ask my wife!  But lets keep this civil.  I do not begrudge any differing opinions.  Heck im not even saying its what I would have done if GW gave me the keys to the setting.  Space Marines will never be as cool or awesome to me as they were in 1998.  But im enjoying this new setting.  I am enjoying this movement.  I am just reading into what we are being given.  This is exciting, I haven't been this excited to discover more about space marines and their lore since a 12 year old Boldthreat (in rural Oklahoma lol) was holding the box for Chaos Gate wondering "what the hell is this about?".  

[FlamingDeth]

Speaking from the standpoint of an old goat that was, at least initially, resistant to nearly all of the fluff changes/progression...

 

One of the main issues was that in the mainstream 40k there had been that tagline, "The Galaxy is large, and you will not be missed." The age of galaxy changing heroes was over. Sure, occasionally you'd have a named character that could change the course of a battle, but no individual could really alter the course of entire galaxy. Then Cawl comes in and Guillaman return to mess thing up.

 

Not all the plot progression is bad. Even the way the implemented it was more gorilla fisted than a khorne berserker, the fall of Cadia and the great rift are, I think, great additions to the setting. I've eventually adjusted to the presence of Cawl and Big G, since in the end of I reject their impact I also have to reject Sebastian Thor, Vandire, Lord Solar Macharius, Land, and a host of others. It's just hard to adjust to them being in the here and now instead of just the history books.

 

Adjusting to it all takes sort of a perspective shift. It all might look, on the surface, like everything is getting brighter and more hopeful in the Imperium due to all this, but it isn't the case. The imperium is split in half by a warp rift, which if I'm not mistaken, is still expanding. All the threats that we're there before are getting worse. The Imperium is still a facist, bureaucratic dunghole. The new technology and fancier marines aren't making the Imperium better, they're making it so that everyone isn't more screwed than they were before the whole thing started. It is, more or less, status quo. In order to keep it there while launching new models GW just had to first make things a whole lot worse.

 

As far as making Primaris specific fluff better, folks are right, it does need to be expanded, and flaws introduced. I'm in favor of some sort of unintended side effect of reverse engineering the god-maker organ. Not chaos corruption or genetic instability or anything like that, something new and creative that the tech priests and apothecaries wouldn't have thought they needed to look for. I don't know what, but it needs to be something that surprises us. A rewrite of the codex astartes is also in order, chapters need to be expanded a lot so that they could more plausibly have an actual impact as a fighting force.

 

I am also a fan of splitting codecies. After 200+ years, any chapters that we're willing to accept Primaris are going to have mostly just Primaris, and the ones that won't (which by word of god we've been told is a very small amount) could probably be condensed into a single book. I'd bet we're going to have to wait at least another full codex cycle before that happens though, just so that Primaris can be expanded to a full lineup.

[Panzer]

Speaking from the standpoint of an old goat that was, at least initially, resistant to nearly all of the fluff changes/progression...

 

One of the main issues was that in the mainstream 40k there had been that tagline, "The Galaxy is large, and you will not be missed." The age of galaxy changing heroes was over. Sure, occasionally you'd have a named character that could change the course of a battle, but no individual could really alter the course of entire galaxy. Then Cawl comes in and Guillaman return to mess thing up.

 

Not all the plot progression is bad. Even the way the implemented it was more gorilla fisted than a khorne berserker, the fall of Cadia and the great rift are, I think, great additions to the setting. I've eventually adjusted to the presence of Cawl and Big G, since in the end of I reject their impact I also have to reject Sebastian Thor, Vandire, Lord Solar Macharius, Land, and a host of others. It's just hard to adjust to them being in the here and now instead of just the history books.

 

Adjusting to it all takes sort of a perspective shift. It all might look, on the surface, like everything is getting brighter and more hopeful in the Imperium due to all this, but it isn't the case. The imperium is split in half by a warp rift, which if I'm not mistaken, is still expanding. All the threats that we're there before are getting worse. The Imperium is still a facist, bureaucratic dunghole. The new technology and fancier marines aren't making the Imperium better, they're making it so that everyone isn't more screwed than they were before the whole thing started. It is, more or less, status quo. In order to keep it there while launching new models GW just had to first make things a whole lot worse.

 

As far as making Primaris specific fluff better, folks are right, it does need to be expanded, and flaws introduced. I'm in favor of some sort of unintended side effect of reverse engineering the god-maker organ. Not chaos corruption or genetic instability or anything like that, something new and creative that the tech priests and apothecaries wouldn't have thought they needed to look for. I don't know what, but it needs to be something that surprises us. A rewrite of the codex astartes is also in order, chapters need to be expanded a lot so that they could more plausibly have an actual impact as a fighting force.

 

I am also a fan of splitting codecies. After 200+ years, any chapters that we're willing to accept Primaris are going to have mostly just Primaris, and the ones that won't (which by word of god we've been told is a very small amount) could probably be condensed into a single book. I'd bet we're going to have to wait at least another full codex cycle before that happens though, just so that Primaris can be expanded to a full lineup.

 

The thing is, nobody did change the course of the galaxy still. All Cawl and Guilliman did so far is entering the next chapter of struggling before humankind goes to :cuss . GW made it pretty clear that they simply moved the clock a little bit closer to midnight ... but midnight is still there and while it seems there's a bit of hope it's not like things are currently looking bright at all.

[FlamingDeth]

That was basically my point. It's the status quo. They changed the course insofar as the course it was on without them would have seen the imperium collapsing, likely in the span of a few decades, and now it's not. GW just implemented it with all the subtlety of a brick through a window.

 

Clarification edit: In the imperial history books, I'm sure it says something along the lines of, "The imperium was doomed! Then Thor came along, we're once again free to continue being smothered by oppression!" I'm sure imperial history books will eventually say the same thing about Cawl and Guillaman.

[Panzer]

They didn't change the course tho. The imperium is still collapsing.

Nobody knows how long it would've lasted without Primaris and whether Primaris bought them even just a few years more. The very first crusade Guilliman took them with failed and he just proclaimed it as success to raise the morale of humankind. So far Primaris did nothing noteworthy that would've been impossible to achieve with regular Marines in the fluff. It's simply too early to talk about it.

[Ishagu]

Well, they did kick a lot of butt around the galaxy and have begun attempts to close the rift using crude copies of the cadian pylons.

 

Chaos isn't an enemy you can defeat with bombs and bullets, unfortunately for Guilliman

 

 

Edit: typo

[Brother Lunkhead]

Brother Boldthreat, you make some very fine points I too believe the Primaris to be the way of the future and a leap in Imperial Space Marine evolution. When the Primaris first appeared on the stage, I could see the writing on the wall, 'Hello Primaris Space Marines.... So long Old Guard Space Marines' I could accept that (like GW is giving me a choice). I just wasn't very excited by it. A year has gone by and I've warmed more to the Primaris (still not excited though) and I see great potential in pushing the 40K lore further down the road, new chapters, new heroes, new adventures. There is definitely lots of good potential here.

 

Buuuuut, I also see a future where there are still lots of OG Marines around, even whole chapters. I fully get why the Blood Angels are still producing standard model Astartes. Tradition and old dogma developed over ten thousand years are not just going to just disappear like that (insert snapping of fingers). Chapters are going to have to figure out how best to integrate and use these big brutes. Let's face it, even in the current Space Marine codices, Primaris integration and formations are pretty clunky. However, I don't see these as the biggest problems to total integration of the Primaris as the 'new normal'. The biggest problem is logistics. Yup, the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, and supplies on a galactic scale Full scale introduction and support of the Primaris is going to be the biggest logistical nightmare since the creation of the original Legio Astartes. Nothing in a SM chapter is compatible with the Primaris. From food supplies, to armor, to bolters, to Repulsors……. everything will have to be added on to or completely changed to support the Primaris. Just feeding these bad boys is going to be a problem. Primaris Space Marines will need a lot more Space Wheaties than your average Astartes. That means more farm land, more farmers, more food production facilities, etc. 

 

Some will be better at this than others..... Ultramar comes to mind, with it's gift for organization and it's 'do it for Guilliman and the Emperor' work ethic. But that's just a hand full of chapters. Where talking about a thousand chapters spread across the galaxy, many of whom are not self sufficient and rely on supply treaties with the Mechanicum, or even scavenging to supply their troops. I can just see Tyberos of the Carcharodons when he's introduced to the Primaris:

 

         "Very impressive, but he won't fit into a set of MkV armour and his hands are too big to carry a bolter. No thanks. Not interested in big unarmed naked super marines."

 

Although that might make for a funny Carcharodon story….. RobMac, what do you think

 

Eventually, the Pimaris will completely replace the old guard , but not for a long time.

[Boldthreat]

Brother Boldthreat, you make some very fine points I too believe the Primaris to be the way of the future and a leap in Imperial Space Marine evolution. When the Primaris first appeared on the stage, I could see the writing on the wall, 'Hello Primaris Space Marines.... So long Old Guard Space Marines' I could accept that (like GW is giving me a choice). I just wasn't very excited by it. A year has gone by and I've warmed more to the Primaris (still not excited though) and I see great potential in pushing the 40K lore further down the road, new chapters, new heroes, new adventures. There is definitely lots of good potential here.

 

Buuuuut, I also see a future where there are still lots of OG Marines around, even whole chapters. I fully get why the Blood Angels are still producing standard model Astartes. Tradition and old dogma developed over ten thousand years are not just going to just disappear like that (insert snapping of fingers). Chapters are going to have to figure out how best to integrate and use these big brutes. Let's face it, even in the current Space Marine codices, Primaris integration and formations are pretty clunky. However, I don't see these as the biggest problems to total integration of the Primaris as the 'new normal'. The biggest problem is logistics. Yup, the detailed coordination of a complex operation involving many people, facilities, and supplies on a galactic scale Full scale introduction and support of the Primaris is going to be the biggest logistical nightmare since the creation of the original Legio Astartes. Nothing in a SM chapter is compatible with the Primaris. From food supplies, to armor, to bolters, to Repulsors……. everything will have to be added on to or completely changed to support the Primaris. Just feeding these bad boys is going to be a problem. Primaris Space Marines will need a lot more Space Wheaties than your average Astartes. That means more farm land, more farmers, more food production facilities, etc. 

 

Some will be better at this than others..... Ultramar comes to mind, with it's gift for organization and it's 'do it for Guilliman and the Emperor' work ethic. But that's just a hand full of chapters. Where talking about a thousand chapters spread across the galaxy, many of whom are not self sufficient and rely on supply treaties with the Mechanicum, or even scavenging to supply their troops. I can just see Tyberos of the Carcharodons when he's introduced to the Primaris:

 

         "Very impressive, but he won't fit into a set of MkV armour and his hands are too big to carry a bolter. No thanks. Not interested in big unarmed naked super marines."

 

Although that might make for a funny Carcharodon story….. RobMac, what do you think

 

Eventually, the Pimaris will completely replace the old guard , but not for a long time.

 

Oh I think there is a lot to what you are saying Brother Lunkhead.  I think Chapters like the Carcharadons or the Marines Malevolent might be exceptions, not the rule for sure.  Heck those guys are about as rogue as you can get outside of the Eye of Terror lol.  Hell I would love to read about the Carcharadons calling the Custodes' bluff... aggressively if you get my drift.  Give me a novel where they take those smug bastards down a peg!  

 

I think the only difference between what you are saying, and what I am saying is the "not for a long time" part.  I think the "not for a long time" part is past.  If the setting was frozen at the start of the Indomitus Crusade and Ultima Founding.  I would not be saying this.  But Dark Imperium is taking us further.  8th Edition took us further past these events.  Dark Imperium delves into the logistics a bit, even if with a bit of hand-wavium.  94% of the Space Marines forces accepted the Primaris and the new technology.  That still leaves the door open for the Carcharadons and other Chapters like them.  I would hate to stifle any would be player's ability to make his Chapter one of the few who ignored this gift.  If what the Custodes codex showed us is true... then it will be the most isolationist/hostile group of Chapters that will not acquiesce to the Imperium here.  

[Servant of Dante]

If the equipment for making Primaris is seperate from the equipment for making old marines, why wouldn’t the blood angels continue making old marines? I would assume Baal Segundus produces plenty of suitable initiates (they have a tournament to decide who gets a chance so obviously they could just take more winners). The Blood Angels and their successors have always had issues keeping their numbers up, especially recently, the ability to make more marines at a time is the perfect solution. They likely don’t have enough Genesis chambers to make enough Primaris to fill their ranks completely after how devestated their numbers are, so they keep making oldmarines like they have for 10,000 years.

 

I really don’t see how this is illogical, unless you assume they have the resources to produce unlimited Primaris all at once when no chapter has ever been able to make an unlimited number of Astartes. We’re talking about 10 chapters between the BA and their successors, all severely under strength.

 

More on topic, after reading this thread I’m less annoyed with Primaris. I’d not want them to replace marines and I’m not sure it would even make sense for them to, even though some Frater seem to disagree. The only things that I find bland about them is their, as of yet, lack of any downside at all (they’re just marines but better in every sense so far) and the addition of 10,000 year old tech priests. I was under the impression that was impossible, and I feel it shrinks the timeline too much and makes the Horus Heresy less mythical than it should be, but I digress. That’s off topic except for that my dislike for Crawl as a character might affect my perception of his creation, the Primaris.

 

Edit: changed first sentence, second paragraph to avoid being overly combative

[Boldthreat]

All valid points Servant of Dante. But for me I think there are some critical points that help me form the basis for my opinion (and that's all it is).

 

1. The nature of the reinforcement. It is my understanding that the Indomitus Crusade didn't just show up and hand the Blood Angels and Company geneseed and blueprints and told them to get to work. No what we have been told is that Guilliman completely reinforces the chapters with existing warriors and their equipment from his own Unnumbered Sons.

 

He did this for all Chapters. In the case of the Crimson Fists, he showed up with a whole Chapter of Primaris in their own livery. The reinforcement and rearmament was a complete and instantaneous affair. There was no waiting around to replace losses and forge equipment. Guilliman needed these chapters back in the field and he needed it now! This is even more important with the Blood Angels as he makes Dante commander of the cut off Imperium.

 

At that moment, instantaneously, all 10 of the Blood Angel chapters you correctly mentioned were predominantly Primaris Chapters. Completely reinforced. Not only were these warriors better in every way (except in experience), their genetic material is closer to thier Primarch and they are not plagued by the genetic flaws that were seriously affecting the Blood Angels and their ability to reliably wage war.

 

Why would you then implant 1 more aspirant with the legacy material. No way does that make sense. Aspirants implanted prior to this reinforcement are fine. But the moment this goes down legacy Astartes would be in the ever dwindling minority.

 

2. We still have to deal with the 1000 man limitation that is forced on every Chapter by the Codex Astartes. The codex is still in effect. Guilliman is even forced to abide by it (even if in name only) with his Unnumbered Sons. If he has to, then Dante has to. So even if the Blood Angels weren't immediately reinforced, the moment the new technology was given to them they have 2 choices. Fill that empty vacancy with a weaker, degraded asset that we are losing more and more to the red thirst and black rage; or fill that billet with the asset that currently has none of those issues and is more effective in every way.

 

Now couple these points. We have a complete reinforcement and rearmament. The chapters losses are completely replaced with Primaris. If you have any existing Astartes at that point you allow them to continue their training and advancement sure. But beyond that, given the dictates of the Codex Astartes, as billets are made available due to losses by either the Primaris ranks or your ever dwindling legacy ranks, they will be filled by Primaris. I just can't accept that logistics is a reason knowing this. I need more than that. And remember, accepting the new Primaris is a mandate from the Emperor himself, and is enforced by the Custodes at gunpoint.

 

Now add 200 years of constant warfare past this event... In an even more volitile galaxy. We are still making legacy marines? No way.

 

This is all my own opinion. I know what the Blood Angels codex says. I just find that counter productive in the face of what we know. I'm not saying I'm right. 40k, if it's anything, it's subjective. I'm just sharing what I see and work out when I read the new lore. Good and/or bad.

 

Didn't think you were combative at all. Hope you see my response as full of respect and understanding of what you believe and why.

[Servant of Dante]

Hum that makes sense, but I feel this runs the risk of removing much of what made the Blood Angels unique in terms of fluff, you have new marines that (so far) do not show the red thirst or the black rage, and we’re not born on Baal Segundus.

 

I’ve not read Dark Imperium, so I wasn’t aware of the extent to which the primaris were just a fix to all the problems with 0 effort. At least that’s how it seems to me. I agree that there’s no logical reason to keep making oldmarines unless you can’t make enough Primaris to keep up.

 

But then why even be Blood Angels any more if you’re just a bunch of Primaris chapters that don’t use the golden sarcophagi and don’t suffer the Black Rage? Why should I care about the chapter any more? They’re not my primary army but they were my first army and I did love their fluff. I just don’t see how this adds to their character as a chapter, while I do see it removing much of their interesting flavor. Of course, none of that changes what you said, it just means I think it’s boring if true :D

 

One explaination that occurs is the Sanguinary Priesthood and the Reclusium. The Blood Angels perhaps would not trust a Primaris to maintain the traditions of the Sanguinary Priests and carry a Blood Chalice. How could they? The new primaris weren’t born on Baal, and even if they were, the Sanguinary Priest’s work is tied to The Flaw, which the Primaris know nothing of. In the same way, I could see the chapter wishing to have “true blood angels” as chaplains, since the chaplains are responsible for seeing the Black Rage before it fully consumes a battle brother. Of course, not every marine has the skills to be either, so you just have to make a bunch and pick the ones that show the proper aptitudes :P This might be simply seen as creating doctors for patients you don’t need to make, but I would argue that the Blood Angel’s heritage as a chapter would be worth preserving (and perhaps Dante agreees; he’s the dude in charge), even if it means making more “passable marines” like they’ve been doing rather than making all “super marines.”

 

I apologize if I’ve gone a bit off topic.

[Panzer]

Hum that makes sense, but I feel this runs the risk of removing much of what made the Blood Angels unique in terms of fluff, you have new marines that (so far) do not show the red thirst or the black rage, and we’re not born on Baal Segundus.

 

 

They started showing the Red Thirst already. Just the Black Rage is missing.

 

 

As for why even be Blood Angels? Well Primaris are no hard cut. They got integrated into the chapter including all the rituals and whatnot. Apart from the Black Rage they're 100% Blood Angels by now.

[Ishagu]

The black rage isn't what makes a blood angel. It's the artistry, beauty and combat prowess - and they have all those attributes.

 

The Red Thirst is present in the Primaris BA, also.

[Servant of Dante]

It’s all those things, in addition to the flaw. Of course this is subjective but to me what makes Blood Angels Blood Angels is that they are artisans and artists despite the flaw. Whether or not the black rage makes a blood angel a blood angel is a matter of preference, not some immutable fact. YMMV.

 

Of course that’s the same with enjoying the Primaris fluff. There’s nothing wrong with loving or hating it, although personally I’d rather not have such strong feelings on it since that just leads to frustration.

 

However, since the black rage apparently hasn’t shown up in ba primaris, and the codex does say they’re still making oldmarines, I think my explaination remains serviceable for those that like the idea :P

[Boldthreat]

You are absolutely right SoD. In fact your whole point of view is actually shared in lore by Seth himself. He fears the Primaris are just red Ultramarines and that the time of real Blood Angels is over. So you are more than justified to feel the way you do. That sentiment is official.

 

But I wager... And hope that the Black Rage is not done with the Blood Angels. Blood Angels without the black rage are just red Ultramarines and at that point just roll them into the next Space Marine codex. That's not happening.

 

But this could be exciting. Who doesn't want to read about a triumphant group of Blood Angels that think they have overcome their flaws... Only to discover that it's returning... What if it comes back twice as bad? The Primaris will have no clue what's happening... Hope Dante and Co are still around at that point... What if they aren't? I'd love to read that story!

[Wargamer]

The main thing Primaris need are flaws and failure. There has to be a downside to them. This could be something as straightforward as a drastically shortened lifespan, meaning that Primaris are effectively mortals compared to true Astartes.

 

I would also throw out the crap lore about everyone accepting them. There should be canon Chapters who refused them, or even murdered them on sight.