Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[Jareddm]

On 9/8/2022 at 9:08 AM, Noserenda said:

I think Heart of the Pharos came slightly after? It was certainly odd at the time that Pharos certainly felt like it was missing a prelude, which it turns out it kinda was :D 

Ah, I had not switched to digital at the time, so there was barely a month for me between the two.

20 hours ago, Pacific81 said:

Ah I'm coming to these many years late and catching up with the series. I read Pharos probably about a year ago and have just got to this anthology, so my mistake!

As DC said, there can be as many as 20 books of separation between the shorts in the later anthologies and the novels they were intended to supplement.  Most originally came out within a few months or at most a year of their matching novel.  To get either a proper publication or chronological reading order requires separating out the anthologies to be read much earlier.

[bluntblade]

Dipped a toe in Warhammer Crime at last, Bloodlines was a lot of fun. I like how the whole plot is caused by reverberations from so far up the Galactic food chain.

Edited September 10, 2022 by bluntblade

[cheywood]

Farsight by Phil Kelly

 

With a new novel coming out about Shadowsun I figured I’d see just how bad Kelly’s Farsight works are. The answer is very bad. Contrived dialogue, poor scene setting, excess action scenes. This novella has it all. Maybe Crisis of Faith is a vast improvement, but I have little interest in finding out.

[Paceyjg]

Saturnine - 7/10

[Roomsky]

I have an odd habit of re-reading/listening to books that I was lukewarm on or disliked. I don't know, usually has something to do with the subject matter, maybe I'm just that desperate for a new angle on mishandled books that I thought had real potential. Anyway, I gave another listen to Guilliman's, Vulkan's, and the Lion's Primarchs book (for the purpose of this post I also re-read Dreadwing, but that novella is actually good.)

From Guilliman I learned to better appreciate what Annandale was doing instead of judging it as harshly for squandered potential. It's not bad, and actually does a couple things I wish every entry did, like the primarch's writings breaking up the chapters (would have made Mortarion even better.) It just suffers a lot from covering ground that didn't need to be covered, knowing who Guilliman was before the Heresy began was already well-established outside of this book.

Vulkan didn't fare so well (despite having said chapter breaks.) There's really just nothing here, the legion's martyr complex isn't framed as coming from anywhere understandable like Guilliman's Destroyers were. And I know Warhammer's all about over the top action, but Vulkan and co. piloting a Termite drill into an Ork Attack Moon is just… difficult to take seriously. I don't usually like being this uncharitable, but this book really does read like "Guilliman, but worse."

And then there's the Lion. Listened to this again after a Dreadwing revisit and I think I finally get what Guymer was going for. Other Fraters have theorized it's meant to be a low-key indictment of the legion, and with that lens it works much better.

Actually, on that level this book is kind of brilliant. Guymer is a talented author, really gives you something to chew on, and on a technical level this is masterfully done. Like in Ferrus Manus, Guymer is taking a character done dirty by the Heresy series and explaining how exactly they were seen as a success without just retconning their flaws away. The Dark Angels and the Lion are guilty of everything they do in the Heresy that blows up in their faces - it's just that during the Great Crusade their military engagements were so asymmetrical that no one was able to teach them the lesson of failure.

I think Guymer was trying to pull a Palatine Phoenix: show a really impressive campaign that lays all the seeds of the fall to come. Instead of having an iterator call the primarch out and be ignored, Guymer opts for the more subtle approach of playing up all the dangerously primal appeals fascist propaganda makes to disguise how rocky a foundation the legion is standing on. The Dark Angels say "look at our amazing soldiers, aren't they something to aspire to? They know their place and are secure, nay, lionized because of it. Yes, they must sometimes commit atrocities, but it is for the good of the Empire that they are so brutal. They're so honourable and badass. You want them on that wall." All the while, the Dark Angels are on the backfoot for the first two thirds of the book because they think being a band of intentionally opaque :cuss:s is unironically a good thing. They plant the seeds of resentment in their own fleet that the Khrave exploit, and because they win in the end due to what is plainly superior resources, they dismiss the holes they made in their defenses as a moral failing by those that attended them.

And it's that same self-assurance that paves the way for Dreadwing, in which their way of war has not changed but is killing them by inches. The byzantine, self-righteous, supreme self-confidence the Crusade bred into them is exploited by those who learned a long time ago that to stagnate is to die.

Just one problem here: Dreadwing is not affixed to the end of this book. There's no flash-forward epilogue about a legionary seeing how badly their arrogance shot them in the foot. Thing about critique of something: if it's too subtle and is wrapped up in "cool :cuss:", it's just going to be co-opted by those it's trying to speak against. I'm not even an Imperium apologist and it took me 3 reads and help from other Fraters to reach this view.

Perhaps I'm just dim.

But alas, there is another issue I think is just as damning for this book. It's, uh, not just a treatise on the Dark Angel's failure, it's a narrative. This really needed to star Redloss and Holguin, because Duriel and Aravain suuuuuuuck. Oh, they have their moments here and there, and they reinforce the heads-up-their-own-rears worldview of the legion, they're even believable portraits of astartes, so inhuman are they. But they're so booooooring. And the boring can be made interesting by contrasting other characters, but there are no other characters. Everyone is Duriel and Aravain. Everyone is knightly stoic secretive man. Savine is sacrificed on the altar of themes and isn't replaced by anyone.

So many things could have helped this. More Imperator Somnium sections. Holguin and Redloss as protagonists instead, contrasting their appearances in Dreadwing. Another remembrancer or mortal staff who sticks around the whole book, paranoid they're going to be purged with the other undesirables. Have Duriel or Aravain doubt the Lion's opacity but jump on board by the end of the book (or not, and die.) Give them more flashbacks to their time in the Order. Please Guymer, anything! I read Ferrus Manus, I know you can write good characters with minimal page time!

It's honestly so frustrating. The book has every detail you could ask for in a Primarchs story… except for the story. It's excellent supplementary material to their Heresy presence, and nothing else.

Still, my opinion of it has improved. 5/10 maybe? 6? Diehards only, because it doesn't stand on its own at all. Staple Dreadwing to its ass and it improves tremendously.

[phandaal]

42 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

Other Fraters have theorized it's meant to be a low-key indictment of the legion, and with that lens it works much better.

This is probably not the point of the story. This is not a complex book. It shows how the Dark Angels structure their Legion and wage war, and it shows the Lion to be inhuman.

From that regard it may be the Lion's best depiction. Finally we get a Primarch who is not just a big, strong, fast human being who chats with kids and Whedon-quips with his brothers.

The actual battle, including the Khrave's civilian infiltration, is a setup. The Lion knows what is going on right from the beginning.

Maybe this is a boring depiction for some people, but it is what it is.

[Roomsky]

I feel like Guymer's just a better writer than that, unless he had the IP overlords pushing a flat advertisement of Crusade. He seemed enthusiastic about writing them again after Dreadwing, so unless that's empty PR I can't believe he'd tell a story this badly without another layer somewhere.

I mean, I could definitely be seeing qualities where none exist, but it's about the only angle I can find that makes the book any decent. 

[phandaal]

12 hours ago, Roomsky said:

I mean, I could definitely be seeing qualities where none exist, but it's about the only angle I can find that makes the book any decent.

If it was there, it was a lot more subtle than the "Inner Circles GOOD or Inner Circles BAD, HMMM???" hamfist that we see in a book like Descent of Angels, for example.

It was a good book for me for reasons already stated - better depiction of the Lion, focus on Dark Angels as monster hunting knights rather than the usual Fallen angle. Could have been longer, could have expanded on it's themes a bit more.

However, I understand that what I look for in these books is very different than what a lot of other people are looking for.

[Roomsky]

So I tried to get through Storm of Iron again since the audiobook dropped. I think I gave up at the same time as before, around where Hawke wakes back up. I have mad respect for McNeill writing this, for the time it established a lot of important new precedent for the writing of Chaos Astartes, but nowadays it's just so outdated. I also don't have much patience for the older style of bouncing from action scene to action scene carried only by how cool everything is. The characterization is too light/annoying for me.

Not like, objectively bad, but I can't get into it. Give me Angel Exterminatus any day.

[Tolmeus]

9 hours ago, Roomsky said:

but nowadays it's just so outdated

I relate to your sentiment. Read it for the first time in Feb this year. I noticed not long after starting it how different in sytle it was compared to the other books I read until then (HH, SoT, Indomitus Crusade, ...). Seems rather plain and how I envisioned the 40k universe as I first got in contact with it: All about action and less about characters insight. 

9 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Not like, objectively bad, but I can't get into it

So again, I share your view, but also have to say it has some charm knowing its origins and how 40k looked like at that time. 

Would rate it therefore with a 6/10, since it would be unfair to compare it with the standard of a "Saturnine" or "Avenging Son"

[Noserenda]

Been continuing my War of the Beast read and the last few novels have been inoffensively quite good, bit too much random action maybe but nothing too offensive. 

Shadow of Ullanor is testing my patience though, big status quo shifts on both sides, bad speeches and now ships travelling apparently through normal space between systems? I mean there are always some interpretation issues but no warp travel? *headbutting wall*

[Nagashsnee]

28 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Been continuing my War of the Beast read and the last few novels have been inoffensively quite good, bit too much random action maybe but nothing too offensive. 

Shadow of Ullanor is testing my patience though, big status quo shifts on both sides, bad speeches and now ships travelling apparently through normal space between systems? I mean there are always some interpretation issues but no warp travel? *headbutting wall*

While the Beast Arises series has some issues, it is still in my view one of the best things BL ever did. It explores new, cool areas of the setting, it tries to be different without radically changing the core setting and it genuinely for honest tries ( and fails but damn is still nice to see ) to show the imperium as it really is, a huge Empire comprised of many smaller, empires, kingdoms and fiefdoms. 

Oh i am sorry you want ships for your totally logical plan, speak to the Kin...i mean high lord of the navy, whats that? Out of ink and need a refill? Unfortunately 3 generations ago your bosses bosses boss pissed of my bosses bosses boss and you aint getting it.  Proper honest to god Byzantine power structures, where while as the biggest, strongest and in many ways most advanced Empire they should be able to easily win any conflict....if only it wasnt filled to the brim with insane out of touch brilliant nobles/soldiers/priests. MVP points to the Mechanicus here for fully living up to its Empire within an Empire made up of Kingdoms which are made up of dukedoms nature.  And just like the real Eastern Roman Empire which the Imperium borrows so much from it only takes 1 sane, competent individual to put the dominoes into line  and suddenly you everyone remembers why they have lasted so long.  And no other series/novel which I have read ever truly captures this (again not saying the beast arises did this perfectly but hot damn it tried, the scene where after 2 giant failures the navy/army/mech/etc STILL haven't really properly committed because what happens if the REAL ENEMY i.e. the rest of the council pulls something what do we do was just perfect).  Also i really liked how they handled Vangorich going off the deep end. 

[Noserenda]

The politics is pretty much the best bit when its working, which a lot of the earlier books highlighted but its been pretty much abandoned in any real sense by the latter half of the series in favour of the protagonist characters just literally pointing guns at the other high lords and getting them on board, including the scene you mention from this book. 

Troop levels are one of the major inconsistencies too, sometimes the Imperium has literally no more men or ships to give and then a book or two later they pull enough forces out of nowhere to do more massed assaults or die in another Mork ex machina move. It really highlights how little the book authors/editors communicated with each other, lessons fortunately learned for the later BL series at least.

There are definitely great moments in the series and some excellent exploration of an Imperium where the Scouring was grandads war but it is vastly overshadowed by some of the problems such as the inexplicable rok assault the Imperium just did. Like, they somehow launched asteroids at FTL speeds without liquifying the contents on impact with stolen ork tech could be believable, but why dont the apparently fully intact (somehow) ork defences, including several more powerful gravity weapons specifically called out, just grab the asteroids and yoink them into deep space? Even in the same book attack moons can now apparently tear a whole planetary system into space junk with such weapons.

It just absolutely trashes immersion and suspension of disbelief.

Most of the way through Shadows of Ullanor now and i absolute believe the rumour that Sanders and Guymer both wrote book 10 and they had to scrabble to make them sequential. I am looking forward to the last book though even if it is rushed, its the only thing keeping me going right now :D 

[DukeLeto69]

The mistake they made with TBA was to stick to a monthly release cycle without having already finished the whole series. Serious editorial issues with two novels ending up with almost the same plot points. And the studio insisting they shoehorn in some “cool stuff” so it tied in with model releases. TBA was a great idea poorly executed. Some of the novels were great though.

BL have learned and are doing a sequential series with looser release schedule with the Indomitus Crusade (although this time the books could do with being released a bit closer together!)

Edited October 8, 2022 by DukeLeto69

[Krelious]

Plague War  7/10, cant remember much, cant complain. 

Godblight  7.4/10 ^ inoffensive dont really stand out much. I found myself more Interested in a Tzeentch vs Nurgle war and what might happen as the consequences of Rotigus' plot. I feel like this whole series is like a big whatever and could have been condensed into 1 or 2 books instead of 3. I think Guy Haley produces a lot of work for GW and some of it is really good while other novels are just okay or slogs. The Ending is solved by a Dues Ex Machina which sucks because it does not allow the loyalists any sort of development or we are stronger and cleverer than you and we won due to good planning and tactics. Basically these last 2 books the endings are the loyalists are kinda :cuss:ed until a wizard did it. Id prefer it if Guilliman just beat Mortarion because he secretly learned Eldar fighting techniques and or embraced faith as a weapon. I could honestly say the whole Dark Imperium series is a waste of time unless there is some pay off in the future to the plot threads and themes developed.

Apocalypse 8.4/10 I really liked this book and might rate it higher except I'm having trouble remembering it properly in order to give a review. Suffered from a kind of Dues ex Machina where I get it but I think it could have been better executed. The CSM are winning heavily, until they arent and its rather sudden. An unfortunate thing is that this book seemed to be setting up a sequel that might never happen.

Avenging Son  8.4/10 Very good besides a sideplot involving some random scriptorum girl character that felt like comic relief. I think the book was well structured, characters fleshed out and a very unique final conflict that was also very imaginative. Solid characterization and plot details. 

Echoes of Eternity  9.7/10 just really good :cuss:ing work despite it essentially being a how did we get from point A to point B story. I felt like ADB was hampered by Abnett wanting to hog the glory of the finale. This book is pure genius and my only critisism is the ending felt bogged down with Sanguinious fighting Kabandha and then Angron back to back. This book is easily one of the best 30k/40k books of all time.

Spear of the Emperor  9.7/10  I cant rate this book lower than Echoes even though its shorter a completely different story and not what I was expecting at all. Quite frankly this book is the equivalent of someone introducing you to a new sex fetish or kink you never knew you had. After reading ADB back to back I had to take a break and I feel like I needed a ciggarette. This book was intense, rough, it played with my emotions and I loved it. Only critique is the action could have been done better.

Gate of Bones 8.9/10 Really solid work, included the antagonists as main characters and made you sympathize with them. All aspects of the warfare from naval, tank, to shooting/meele and magic in close quarters all really well done. Really captures a lot and left me wanting more. Was my first Andy Clark novel and I loved it. I want to rate it higher but it feels like something was missing and I kind of dont like how one of the villains kind of just dies because faith and prophecy, its literally like ok im dead now because I need to be dead so we can move on with the plot. I would like Andy Clark to write a CSM novel or perhaps have one of the Indomitus novels be from their standpoint instead of the loyalists. Better yet make a counter series of various battles or plots the Traitor Legions have. I think Wordbearers + Iron Warriors was an excellent mix which I dont think we have seen before.

[Chaoself]

On 10/8/2022 at 7:05 PM, Noserenda said:

Most of the way through Shadows of Ullanor now and i absolute believe the rumour that Sanders and Guymer both wrote book 10 and they had to scrabble to make them sequential. I am looking forward to the last book though even if it is rushed, its the only thing keeping me going right now :D 

I have just finished Shadows of Ullanor and now i'm a couple of  pages into the Beheading. Took me some time to find the double paperback book in german, so i'm finishing it to justify the search for it. :)

[Noserenda]

Oh yeah the best thing i could say about Shadows of Ullanor is that its quite short :D 

[Paceyjg]

Spear of the Emperor - 9.5/10

Edited October 11, 2022 by Paceyjg

[Noserenda]

Its done! I finished the War of the Beast! 

The Beheading was a bit of an improvement over the last book, but once again the pacing felt off as Vangoravich is offed in a chapter or two at the end and then thats it done, just like the Beast before him. It really could have benefitted from a juggle across the whole series but thats a whole 'nother topic, at least they took the lessons learned from this series and improved later collaborative efforts. 

But imagine Koorland and the Beast kill each other in book 10, book 11 deals with the aftermath of the War  and can end with Vangoravich realising he has to kill most of the council, which can be resolved in book 12.

I also think the Exemplars/Iron warriors arc could do with some work, its almost good but there really isnt much compelling reason for the Fist Exemplar to just hang out with the Iron Warriors after their initial voyage and just ignore all the obvious messages from the Soul Drinkers and Last wall. Let alone Bohemond just sending one ship to go find them!  Ah well.

Id also like to say that i started this whole thing to dig up more Anathema Psykana fluff for the codex im writing, but while they are fairly crucial to the whole affair we really dont get anything out of that other than them being badasses which was nice at least! :D 

Overall a critically flawed series with some genuine highs but also some of the worst and least coordinated writing in Black library, and ive read all the CS GOTO books :D 

[Sothalor]

20 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Overall a critically flawed series with some genuine highs but also some of the worst and least coordinated writing in Black library, and ive read all the CS GOTO books :D 

 

Aw man, you're gonna make me defend Goto here, aren't you?

 

Alright, here goes. When compared to the :cuss:show that was Teh Best Avakens, Goto at least had the benefit of being a single author writing characters, plots, and themes that he was more-or-less in control of.

 

Setting aside things like the MULTILAZORS memery so prevalent amongst certain sections of the fandom, Goto at least managed to have character arcs, and narrative threads span multiple volumes and across novels, and maintain some consistency of character behavior, motivation, setup, and payoff. Now, I understand that's a low fethin' bar to clear, but considering that The Beast Awakens' bloated mass managed to repeatedly belly-flop against it like Gomer Pyle on the obstacle course in Full Metal Jacket (I don't know why that mental image came to mind), Goto at least deserves that much credit.

 

I'm not saying all of those themes and characterization were necessarily good or that they worked within the wider contextual setting of 40k, but they were there. 

 

 

P.S. If you think about it, multilasers would actually make a lot of logistical sense for Space Marines. Here are these super-soldiers and one of their primary advantages over baseline humans is their sheer capacity for endurance and fighting on beyond all comprehension of human exhaustion. Oh yeah, and every single one of them is wearing a hyper-efficient fusion generator on their back. Combine the two and you reduce ammunition carrying and resupply concerns while also being able to power the multilaser.

There, I said it. Come at me, bro! 

[Noserenda]

Oh i think CS Goto would probably make a decent pulp author if they were writing outside a specific setting, or with better editorial direction but their work was littered with things like the multilasers, the braying, the falcon being destroyed by rocks and possibly the weird relationship with the Farseer (Though to be fair there was been so much bad DoW fiction over the years that might not be them!) but then GW has never been very invested in their game tie in fiction, even for the in house games so legendarily fast and cheap Goto filled their role admirably as pretty much intended.

One of my old gaming buddies HATES their work though, like, to the extent that he previously collected and read every BL book religiously (As i did at the time) but he stopped after the DoW trilogy and even to this day will noticeably flinch if you use the word "Bray", something i absolutely do not exploit for occasional comedy :P 

Plus i did say Beast arises had bits worse than Goto ;) 

[Tolmeus]

Just read an 40k classic if I dare say so: 'Khârn - Eater of Worlds'.
I read it just after finishing 'Siege of Terra - Echoes of Eternity' since it seemed like a fitting link to the World Eaters arc. I was not disappointed, although I do know that there are some story gaps because of the massive time gap of these two novels.

I would rate Khârn a 7/10.

The characters were not simple-minded butchers but had a satisfiyng deepth. The spotlight has of course Dreagher as protagonist, but the minor characters just like Ruokh were described pretty neatas well. A surprise were the well set relationships between mortal serfs and legionaire masters. It had the feeling of equal respect instead of sheer exploitation. As for the story, it could be summarised to this question:

Is it possible to venture forth as a united legion (even without Angron) or do the World Eaters desolve into warbands who seek only their own benefit?

A little astounishing was the fact that the title-given charcter, Khârn, had objectively minor parts in the whole story. Of course his role becomes more relevant to the end of the novel. However, it was not a bad decision in how Khârn was depicted. Also, the short story 'Chosen of Khorne' acted as a nice balance to it.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Tolmeus

[SkimaskMohawk]

Anthony Reynolds was an OG with the word bearer trilogy. Wish we could have seen more heresy/scouring era from him 

[Felix Antipodes]

There are few of the old guard BL writers (that have moved on to fresh pastures) that I really miss enough to wish they were back in the BL stable.  Anthony Reynolds would be top of that list though.  His stuff was always enjoyable at a minimum (imho) and I don’t t believe GW got the best out of him before his departure.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Void King - I'm hovering around an 8 on this one. I really did enjoy reading the book. Most of my issues with it weren't really Collins' fault, but due to writing within Black Library's constraints.