Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[cheywood]

To each their own! I love that EoE has a small cast and think Saturnine’s success is because of Abnett’s brilliant storytelling more than any inherent structural appeal relating to the number of characters. ADB’s work makes for such a unique vision of the Siege. You’re not necessarily seeing the battles play out, you’re seeing how the battles affect their participants. I think it will end up being a perfect complement to Abnett’s presumably POV-packed finale. 

[theSpirea]

1 hour ago, DarkChaplain said:

But then, Goodreads is notorious for having people rating books at 5 stars months and years before they're even finished. My big bugbear is still Scott Lynch's The Thorn of Emberlain.... a book that was supposed to release in 2014/2015. It doesn't exist, it's not finished, it's been in the "almost done writing" state for 8 years. The author scrapped it multiple times and is struggling with mental health issues and burnout. It's placeholder release date has been pushed back for the past 7 years, over and over again.

Doesn't happen much/at all with BL publications because they are not announced that far ahead and barely any librarians add them manually so it's usually only added once it's published and available via Amazon.

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, Wulfburk said:

I mean, Saturnine is the best reviewed siege book, and better reviewed than every single Horus Heresy novel (according to goodreads). So there's an odd chance that a lot of people did find these threads interesting.

 

I'll never lose sleep, over the reviews of others that run contrary to my own views. ;)

 

4 hours ago, Wulfburk said:

But besides, having Abbadon, or Loken, Keeler, Sigismund and what not take part would obviously be as much about them as Horus and the Emperor. And if not them, other recurring characters that shown up in the other novels, or new characters followig old subplots of the other books.

This is just an encapsulation of why the HH series (used as generously as I care to apply 'series' to what we got) became a convoluted, contradictory, bloated, aimless, mess.

 

Loken should have stayed dead. Keeler? The whole Imperial Cult thing shouldn't even have been up for discussion really and certainly shouldnt have become 'well its the 40K fanaticism, just 10K years early!' that we got.

 

The Heresy itself, the core story, absolutely 100% could have stood on its own, and ADB's book proves it, just as Master of Mankind did before it. Yes sure, other people like all the various plot lines, but to the core of the story itself, does it matter that Sigismund goes super nova and kills everyone? Not really. Does Loken matter at all? Not in the slightest. EoE is a master stroke, because all that other stuff? Its simply filler for the main plot points of the Heresy.

 

I live in a state of perpetual (get it?) dread, that Abnett will ruin things here with a 'subversion twist!' ending, and I'll spend an evening ill over my own Porcelain Throne. 

[Sothalor]

Innocence Proves Nothing, by Sandy Mitchell

 

 

Following on from Scourge the Heretic, this was the second in a tie-in series with the Dark Heresy RPG line from Black Industries (before that license went to Fantasy Flight Games). IPN is a direct sequel to Scourge, following on almost immediately after the events and setup from the first novel.

 

Innocence is also a follow-up to Scourge in its stylistic tone and narratives. There’s a focus on Inquisition acolytes conducting investigations, multiple parallel plot threads and leads, and world-building some of the setting of the Calixis subsector (the setting of Dark Heresy).

 

Accordingly, much of the praise I had for Scourge also applies to Innocence. This was excellent “domestic” 40k, placing an emphasis on the occultic and esoteric underbelly of the Imperium. Innocence expands on that by additionally highlighting how the Inquisition is a byzantine, secretive institution whose members frequently end up working at cross-purposes to one another. It’s not just through purposeful hindrance or ideological battlelines here, but also through the paranoid obsessiveness and secrecy of individual Inquisitors’ methods. It’s not just that the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing, it’s that the left hand has disguised itself as a nose and has no idea the right hand is in the same bucket. There’s a wonderful atmosphere of Imperial disfunction on display here.

 

Innocence also continues the great worldbuilding from the first book. The highlight here was the Misericord, the Chartist generational ship traveling the stellar routes of Calixis. From the physical descriptions of the massive, almost space hulk-like structure and its distorted interiors to the caste society with their intricate regulations and traditions, this was excellent gothic science fantasy bizarreness.

 

Unfortunately, the same issues I had with Scourge are further amplified with Innocence. The biggest issue is availability; unfortunately an ongoing, larger issue with Black Library’s release model, publication volume, etc. Innocence isn’t even available as an ebook from BL’s site. As far as I know, the only feasible way to read this is to find a copy on the second-hand market.

 

Furthermore, I can now definitely say this is an abandoned series. Innocence doesn’t resolve any of the plot threads set up in Scourge. It adds additional complications, raises the stakes – and ends on a cliffhanger. This was certainly gearing up for at least a third book – one that we never got, and probably never will.

 

And that’s a shame, because this was an enjoyable read. It’s competently written, has solid characters, great atmosphere and tone, and showcases antagonists of a different sort from “conventional” 40k novels. This was written before BL’s phase where seemingly everything published had to feature models from the GW catalogue, and it takes advantage of that.

 

In conclusion then, it’s hard to recommend Innocence Proves Nothing – not so much due to intrinsic issues with its writing or content, but because of the meta-issues surrounding it regarding availability and its status as an orphaned series. It’s a solid read, and a forerunner to some of the very strong recent novels like the Vaults of Terra series. If you happen to find it for a low price at a used bookstore or something, you probably won’t regret picking it up. Ultimately though I think this one - both books really – are most appealing for their novelty and “collector appeal” as historical artifacts in the 40k catalogue than anything else.

[Felix Antipodes]

My biggest problem with the perpetual storyline is that there doesn’t seem to be one.  They are not the first group of immortals in SFF fiction, nor will they be the last.  I’m sure Dan Abnett had a plan when he introduced them but there appears to be little to show what it originally was.  It probably fell apart when he took his sabbatical from BL and they fell into the hands of others.  Just my 2c worth.

[DukeLeto69]

19 hours ago, Sothalor said:

Innocence Proves Nothing, by Sandy Mitchell

 

 

Following on from Scourge the Heretic, this was the second in a tie-in series with the Dark Heresy RPG line from Black Industries (before that license went to Fantasy Flight Games). IPN is a direct sequel to Scourge, following on almost immediately after the events and setup from the first novel.

 

Innocence is also a follow-up to Scourge in its stylistic tone and narratives. There’s a focus on Inquisition acolytes conducting investigations, multiple parallel plot threads and leads, and world-building some of the setting of the Calixis subsector (the setting of Dark Heresy).

 

Accordingly, much of the praise I had for Scourge also applies to Innocence. This was excellent “domestic” 40k, placing an emphasis on the occultic and esoteric underbelly of the Imperium. Innocence expands on that by additionally highlighting how the Inquisition is a byzantine, secretive institution whose members frequently end up working at cross-purposes to one another. It’s not just through purposeful hindrance or ideological battlelines here, but also through the paranoid obsessiveness and secrecy of individual Inquisitors’ methods. It’s not just that the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing, it’s that the left hand has disguised itself as a nose and has no idea the right hand is in the same bucket. There’s a wonderful atmosphere of Imperial disfunction on display here.

 

Innocence also continues the great worldbuilding from the first book. The highlight here was the Misericord, the Chartist generational ship traveling the stellar routes of Calixis. From the physical descriptions of the massive, almost space hulk-like structure and its distorted interiors to the caste society with their intricate regulations and traditions, this was excellent gothic science fantasy bizarreness.

 

Unfortunately, the same issues I had with Scourge are further amplified with Innocence. The biggest issue is availability; unfortunately an ongoing, larger issue with Black Library’s release model, publication volume, etc. Innocence isn’t even available as an ebook from BL’s site. As far as I know, the only feasible way to read this is to find a copy on the second-hand market.

 

Furthermore, I can now definitely say this is an abandoned series. Innocence doesn’t resolve any of the plot threads set up in Scourge. It adds additional complications, raises the stakes – and ends on a cliffhanger. This was certainly gearing up for at least a third book – one that we never got, and probably never will.

 

And that’s a shame, because this was an enjoyable read. It’s competently written, has solid characters, great atmosphere and tone, and showcases antagonists of a different sort from “conventional” 40k novels. This was written before BL’s phase where seemingly everything published had to feature models from the GW catalogue, and it takes advantage of that.

 

In conclusion then, it’s hard to recommend Innocence Proves Nothing – not so much due to intrinsic issues with its writing or content, but because of the meta-issues surrounding it regarding availability and its status as an orphaned series. It’s a solid read, and a forerunner to some of the very strong recent novels like the Vaults of Terra series. If you happen to find it for a low price at a used bookstore or something, you probably won’t regret picking it up. Ultimately though I think this one - both books really – are most appealing for their novelty and “collector appeal” as historical artifacts in the 40k catalogue than anything else.

Have both of these. Fantastic reads. Also notable for the wonderful cover art by Clint Langley that ties in with the Dark Heresy game books. Absolute crying shame BL didn’t let this trilogy get finished.

[Sothalor]

1 hour ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Have both of these. Fantastic reads. Also notable for the wonderful cover art by Clint Langley that ties in with the Dark Heresy game books. Absolute crying shame BL didn’t let this trilogy get finished.

 

Yeah, the cover art was great (I think at least one piece was directly from one of the Dark Heresy adventure modules).

 

One more thing I just thought of is that these books manifest a real interesting type of synergy with the Dark Heresy line as a tie-in work. The worldbuilding they introduce provides an excellent starting point for game masters and players to fill in the details of some major locales of the setting. The intrigues, investigations, and antagonists also provide great inspiration and examples of the sorts of shenanigans a group might encounter - from incidental hazards like degenerated cannibal tribes and mercenary teams, to Inquisitorial in-fighting and factional/ideological hostility with high threat peer-level acolyte teams facing off against each other, to glimpses of larger extreme threats.

 

This series is a solid case of tie-in fiction that is both readable and enjoyable from a writing fundamentals perspective and  "meets the brief" of showcasing the "here's what to expect if you're interested in more" angle that tie-in works tend to do.

[byrd9999]

Finished a few recently, but having gone through the B&C threads afterwards there doesn't seem to be much I can add constructively, so I'll summarise here.

 

Twice Dead King: Ruin, by Nate Crowley. 9/10

 

Nate's really rather good, isn't he? This gives real life and motivation to the regular necrons, is touching and hilarious. Like Pixar's Inside Out, but in a 65-million year old robot instead of a 13 year old girl. There's not much difference.

 

 

Mortarion: The Pale King, by David Annandale. 5/10

 

A good intro and outro, but the middle majority of the book is wasted on bland action scenes. Someone said the format limits the authors and this needed another 100 pages to round it out, but M:TPK comes in at the short end of Primarchs novels at 180 pages. Annandale could have written another 40 and stayed within the limit. He could also have sacrificed some dull bolter scenes for more character development. The Order were decent bad guys, but the Death Guard were 2-dimensional. Mortarion himself offered little except scythe metaphors and the rest of the crew were indistinguishable except one of them was called Garro. This needed another draft to inject some character.

 

 

Echoes of Eternity, by Aaron Dembski-Bowden. 9/10

 

Aaron's really rather good, isn't he? An excellent Siege novel with a real sense of just how close the Imperium is to collapse, but equally the Traitors are collapsing too and nearly failing to push their advantage.

 

 

Honour Guard, by Dan Abnett. 8/10

 

My favourite Gaunt's Ghosts novel so far (4th in the series). There's a good sense of interaction and character between the Ghosts now, they feel like rounded characters. A bit more of the world-building in the Sabbat universe helps too.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, byrd9999 said:

Echoes of Eternity, by Aaron Dembski-Bowden. 9/10

 

Aaron's really rather good, isn't he? An excellent Siege novel with a real sense of just how close the Imperium is to collapse, but equally the Traitors are collapsing too and nearly failing to push their advantage.

 

Whats really funny to me is that obviously we know in the end how this all will fall out. We know the Traitors will collapse, we see the cracks, the insanity, its always just been hanging on by a thread.

 

I was still physically FRUSTRATED when it all started to fall apart in the end for them. Like I had a physiological reaction to it, it was quite funny because I've been prepared for this eventual defeat, it has to come, but at the same time, ADB wrote it so well that I was like the Word Bearer, just sputtering at it all going to :cuss:.

[Krelious]

On 10/31/2022 at 5:26 PM, Scribe said:

 

I'll never lose sleep, over the reviews of others that run contrary to my own views. ;)

 

 

 

I live in a state of perpetual (get it?) dread, that Abnett will ruin things here with a 'subversion twist!' ending, and I'll spend an evening ill over my own Porcelain Throne. 

 

I dont think Abnett will be able to :cuss: up the ending very much because from reading what the authors say these novels are massive collaborative efforts and while letting say Gav Thorpe or French :cuss: up a novel in the middle I dont think they are going to let Abnett commit Warhammer blasphemy and what we might see instead will be of course the role of the perpetuals in the end being significantly more as has been hinted at for a while.

 

However quite frankly I thought Saturnine was a boring and stupid book, I think Abnett is massively over rated and what they should do is just have an AI clone ADBs brain patterns 10-20 times and just have him be the sole author of all BL stuff along with maybe Wraight. I mean honestly ADB :cuss:ing blows everyone out of the water that reading his novels are a :cuss:ing treat while everyone elses is more or less reading for the sake of discovering plot points that are necessary. I can honestly say that I have read Legion, Horus Rising, Know no Fear and Saturnine and I felt all of those were boring and even people like Mcneil are better than Abnett.

 

I just finished a LE of Talon of Horus and I dont regret it at all. ADB knows what the :cuss: warhammer 40k is about and he knows how to write.

 

9.8/10

[DukeLeto69]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:31 AM, Krelious said:

 

I dont think Abnett will be able to up the ending very much because from reading what the authors say these novels are massive collaborative efforts and while letting say Gav Thorpe or French up a novel in the middle I dont think they are going to let Abnett commit Warhammer blasphemy and what we might see instead will be of course the role of the perpetuals in the end being significantly more as has been hinted at for a while.

 

However quite frankly I thought Saturnine was a boring and stupid book, I think Abnett is massively over rated and what they should do is just have an AI clone ADBs brain patterns 10-20 times and just have him be the sole author of all BL stuff along with maybe Wraight. I mean honestly ADB :cuss:ing blows everyone out of the water that reading his novels are a :cuss:ing treat while everyone elses is more or less reading for the sake of discovering plot points that are necessary. I can honestly say that I have read Legion, Horus Rising, Know no Fear and Saturnine and I felt all of those were boring and even people like Mcneil are better than Abnett.

 

I just finished a LE of Talon of Horus and I dont regret it at all. ADB knows what the warhammer 40k is about and he knows how to write.

 

9.8/10

Interesting take and you are of course welcome to your opinion. I disagree re Abnett. I think he is one of THE most readable of the BL authors by far. Alongside ADB, Wraight, Fehervari, he is leagues ahead of the majority.

[Nagashsnee]

In my mind we need to separate Abnet into different phases, i love his early work but i think Know no Fear marks what i call the m night shyamalan phase, where he increasingly tried to insert twist or universe shaking discoveries ( likely i a twist) into his works. It still good but more and more its him trying to twist the setting to what he wants rather then play in it and just add things to it. 

 

Perpetuals, enuncia, the king in yellow etc.   These days when i read the a Abnett book around the 2/3 mark i start preparing myself for it and he almost NEVER disappoints. 

 

As for BL/other authors reining him in, i honestly dont think BL editorial cares, and I have long had the view that they are way to close/friends in real life for them to actually be able to tell each other harsh truths.   And the one that do speak up to the existing hierarchy tend to get the boot/lack of new projects.  

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Nagashsnee

[cheywood]

6 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

In my mind we need to separate Abnet into different phases, i love his early work but i think Know no Fear marks what i call the m night shyamalan phase, where he increasingly tried to insert twist or universe shaking discoveries ( likely i a twist) into his works. It still good but more and more its him trying to twist the setting to what he wants rather then play in it and just add things to it. 

 

Perpetuals, enuncia, the king in yellow etc.   These days when i read the a Abnett book around the 2/3 mark i start preparing myself for it and he almost NEVER disappoints. 

 

As for BL/other authors reining him in, i honestly dont think BL editorial cares, and I have long had the view that they are way to close/friends in real life for them to actually be able to tell each other harsh truths.   And the one that do speak up to the existing hierarchy tend to get the boot/lack of new projects.  

 

 

To me it seems more likely that Abnett has permission to play with the setting to a greater degree. He’s always loved big twists and revelations, just look at Ghostmaker. BL in general seems to have way more narrative freedom now than in previous years. Would Chris Wraight have been able to write Vaults of Terra a decade ago? I’d say no way.
 

Is there any evidence to suggest BL editorial doesn’t like what Abnett’s doing? The perpetuals have their issues (especially when other writers use them), but his works are still receiving widespread acclaim across the fanbase and selling extremely well. Given how business oriented GW is, cancelling trilogies if the second book doesn’t sell, I don’t see them giving Abnett whatever he wants purely out of friendship.

Edited November 8, 2022 by cheywood

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, cheywood said:

Is there any evidence to suggest BL editorial doesn’t like what Abnett’s doing?

 

No, I'd say its the opposite. Few if any get as much rope as Abnett does.

[Nagashsnee]

Why would they dislike it? Their job is to make money and he makes lots of money.  I even specifically said i dont think they care...as long as they make lots of money. As for the friendship thing we are mixing up two different forces, BL itself and the writers room/circle/meetings. From my little experience talking to the BL authors at events and seeing how they speak about them at interviews BL is very much focused on money and tie ins.  Never forget the tie ins, to new lore/minis/games.

 

Money wise its clear from the amount of marine books they pump out and like other said how they cancel low sellers.  The most blatant recent tie is the siege book Mortis where the brand new Warmaster titan makes it one  ( and i believe only so far) appearance to dominate all the other older models.  

 

Writers circle is a whole other beast and ties in to what other fraters said about them keeping each other in check if one tries something too crazy/out there. And this is where I believe their close relationships and personal interests come in like a wrecking ball and make any such notion silly.  Best case someone gives a 'not my cup of tea' comment.  

 

Note i dont begrudge either thing, BL SHOULD focus on profit tho if they want to maximize short term vs long term is a whole different chat ( like how the period of LE/short story overload put allot of people off).  And pushing the minis and the universe is why they were founded in the first place. Tho they are good and bad ways of doing it ( tho much is also a matter of taste i grant you).

 

Likewise i know from my own work that sometimes telling your co workers that you think their ideas are bad/silly/in need of change is not only hard but in many cases NOT YOUR JOB. Doubly so when they have help your with your own work in the past. 

 

Abnett is the perfect blend of all of it, been there forever, huge seller, successful in the mainstream and a proven track record.  So you tell me ( regardless of if you like it as a idea or execution) when he inserted perpetuals into the heresy who was going to stop him? 

 

When Nick Kyme thought to himself I can :cuss: out a salamander trilogy and the HH/Marine label will make sure it hit sales why would anyone care if the stories/quality is not top notch? Or if maybe they are other plot points that desperately need the page count?

 

I love warhammer and in the last couple of years BL has put out some of my FAVOURITE BL books of all time ( Wraiths terra books are the best thing they have done in years and i will fight you over it).  But anyone who looks me in the eye and tells me Gav Thropes Indomitus book was ANYTHING but a quick tie in cash grab to go along the edition/new starter  that no one cared enough about to fix/polish up/ properly edit is lying to themselves first and most.  

 

 

But on topic, I re read Rebel Winter the IG Vostroyan book from back when they did a 1 book per regiment run, it is a solid little read, deffinetly nothing to write home about, but gave the Vossies a little character and was a solid enough by the numbers military story. The fact that they are on the back foot for most of the book makes it easy to root for them.

 

Worth it if you play Vostroyans otherwise probably a pass. 

 

 

 

 

[cheywood]

5 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

Why would they dislike it? Their job is to make money and he makes lots of money.   

 

Writers circle is a whole other beast and ties in to what other fraters said about them keeping each other in check if one tries something too crazy/out there. And this is where I believe their close relationships and personal interests come in like a wrecking ball and make any such notion silly.  Best case someone gives a 'not my cup of tea' comment.  

 

Thanks for clarifying! I took ‘As for BL/other authors reining him in, i honestly dont think BL editorial cares, and I have long had the view that they are way to close/friends in real life for them to actually be able to tell each other harsh truths.   And the one that do speak up to the existinghierarchy tend to get the boot/lack of new projects. ’ to mean that BL editorial and the writers both dislike his work, but won’t say anything out of friendship/desire to make money.
 

I’m still not entirely sure what evidence there is that Abnett’s fellow authors have any desire to keep him in check. I think there’s a strong likelihood they legitimately love what’s he’s doing, just like most of the fan base seems to. ADB’s almost pathological in his desire to see Abnett write the ending, and the way he talks about Horus Rising in the EoE afterword is rabidly enthusiastic. A big part of creative work is being willing to hear feedback, so I think there’s a good chance the writers are relatively honest with one another, especially after 10-15 years in the Heresy word mines. 

[Roomsky]

ADB mentions in his Siege interview that he was a staunch defender of "playing the hits," and that he earned a few death stares from Abnett for making a stand against his more out-there ideas. I think people started to apply that to more than just the Siege books out of assumption, though I suppose there's no evidence for it.

 

Abnett admitted himself that when writing Legion, he pitched several strange ideas about the Alpha Legion expecting to get to keep one, and they told him he could use all of them and offered one more. I'd imagine something similar has happened for other books too.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Roomsky

[Sothalor]

Farseer, by William King

 

A pulpy action-adventure from an earlier era that has aged decently in some regards and less so in others. Farseer was released twenty years ago now. It was re-released about a decade ago as a “Heretic Tome” brand to indicate that the setting and its details have since evolved (or been retconned, depending on how you’d prefer to term it). That may lend it a certain mystique that, frankly, I don’t think it deserves.

 

At its core, Farseer is not a complicated tale at all. It’s a pretty straightforward adventure story, not an in-depth character exploration or philosophical meditation on the fundamentals of the setting.

 

The plot summary goes thus: Rogue Trader Janus Darke is on the last legs of his fortune, having been on a string of bad luck. He gets approached by Auric, an Eldar Farseer from Ulthwé, who wants Darke to bring them to an old Eldar world in the heart of the Eye of Terror. There’s Eldar, there’s Chaos – ergo, Slaanesh shenanigans are involved. As a tricksy Eldar, Auric may or may not have ulterior motives regarding Janus Darke (spoiler: of course he does).

 

Regarding the prose: Farseer is… fine. I’ve never been a big fan of King’s prose. It’s functional and for the most part, competent. However, it’s not particularly engaging or rich to me. Some of the wordcraft and dialogue feel clunky and somehow off. It’s almost like an uncanny valley of dialogue, an almost but not quite how people speak to one another. In fairness, I think this was an issue that many BL books from this earlier period suffered from. My feeling is they were going for a certain gothic, formal tone but just hadn’t quite refined it to where we are now with the likes of Wraight.

 

The highlight of Farseer for me is its depiction of warp travel. One of the POV characters is a Navigator, and depiction of guiding a ship through the warp is some great worldbuilding (especially at this stage of the setting). There are some details that have changed over the years – one standout is the lack of Geller Fields in Farseer – but it remains a harrowing depiction of a starship dragging itself through hell, with its Navigator in solid self-denial about (un)reality as he watches daemons clawing against the hull of the ship and telling himself that the claw-armed daemoness leaving scratches in his viewing dome is totally a figment of his imagination, really, truly.

 

Unfortunately, much of the rest of Farseer is unremarkable or otherwise wasted potential. It’s billed as an Eldar novel on the cover, but it spends surprisingly little time actually dealing with Eldar culture, history, materiel, and so on. Now, again, to be fair, this was probably one of the first 40k novels that actually DID deal with any of it at all. The Eldar characters get quite little pagetime.

 

Instead, the protagonist we get is Janus Darke the Rogue Trader. And what a limp noodle Darke is. The novel goes on this long expository :cuss:y about how Darke was this young prodigy: an extraordinarily talented man who was a tactical genius, cunning trader, charismatic leader of men, and possessed of boldness and initiative and vision.

 

That’s not the Darke we get in the novel. The Darke we get is a drug addict wastrel with all the acumen, agency, and initiative of a dead fish. He consistently makes idiotic decisions, has no mastery of himself, and gets led around at the simplest nudging by anybody around him. If the point of Farseer is to showcase the manipulative wiles of the Eldar, Darke undermines all that. It’s harder to steal candy from a baby than it is to “trick” Darke into doing something.

 

It all results in a tepid narrative. The protagonist is a passive, stoned moron. He doesn’t drive the plot or events.

 

“Let’s go here.”

 

“Okay.”

 

“Let’s do this.”

 

“Okay.”

 

“Take this thing.”

 

“Okay. Wait! Egads, I’ve fallen for your cunning plan!”

 

Really?

 

Instead, imagine if we’d gotten a protagonist like Jack Sparrow from the first Pirates of the Caribbean (the good one). A trickster: who’s always got a plan, who’s always working an angle, always got a trick up his sleeve. Imagine this guy going up against an Eldar Farseer, pulling everything out of his hat only to realize in the end he’s been hopelessly outclassed this whole time. That would have been a much more engaging story, and a much more impressive showcase of the Eldar.

 

But alas, we had this instead. It’s a curiosity from a bygone era of 40k and the Black Library, and there’s a reason it hasn’t had the same staying power of Eisenhorn or Gaunt’s Ghosts. There are much more worthwhile reads out there.

[Fedor]

King was always very hit and miss as a novelist. His style of pulpy adventure story worked better in the Old World imo. Farseer i can barely remember even reading though, just a vague recollection it had a good Emperor's Children character in it.

 

The early Gaunt's Ghosts shorts and full novels were no better imo, something about them irrationally angers me. Churned out, by the numbers, Sharpe in space fodder that were also absolutely full of limp ww1/ww2 military fiction cliches, stuff that often seemed a step away from being Blackadder played straight. I know it's presumptious, but i can't help but somewhat feel their staying power has a lot more to do with Abnett's better work drawing new fans in, and the wider appeal of a band of brothers/sharpe style series following the common soldier.

 

I couldn't get past Necropolis back then, and gave them another go recently, but the next trilogy was only slightly better. That was it for me, even though i've had people i trust say that the later books have a vibe that would be far more to my taste. I genuinely put these earlier parts of the series as among the weakest Guard books out there.  Almost all of the standalones were better, even when completely unambitious. Except perhaps the silly Catachan one by Lyons, which fails completely to be a horror story.

 

Looking back on '00s Abnett, for me he really did put an odd mix of very good, seminal work and complete misfires that were as tonally off as almost any writer has gone with 40k/warhammer. For the former we have his inquisition work, Titanicus, Riders of the Dead, Horus Rising. For the latter...early Ghosts, Brothers of the Snake and the immortal Fell Cargo.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Fedor

[Noserenda]

I think Ghosts really hit their stride with Necropolis and have been dropping off the last 4-5 books, back in the old days though Abnett was writing a bit above his peers (So much junk) and the power of recurring characters in inferno was strong, you immediately recognised the type of story you were going to get and could engage even if you didnt recognise the author by name, that and GW ran with and promoted them pretty heavily. 

Also, this might be anecdotal but before the internet i think the print works certainly felt more popular, we had a joke on the store minibus to one event that nearly everyone had brought Inferno to read on the way up, which established those characters with a whole bunch of hobbyists who might watch a lore video or read a wiki to get a summary these days, which gave the magazines of the time a lot more influence.

[Krelious]

Talon of Horus + Black Legion  Aaron Dembski Bowden      9.8/10

"If the world had 99 more ADBs in it would have 100 ADBs in it, I want to believe that's a good thing, surely the gods would find a way to turn this on me."

 

Considering this series started in 2014 and the style of the novel being a retelling of events by the narrator, it's a very compelling story but also has the potential to sink deeper with potency as time goes on, the two existing novels in the series flow beautifully together. The entire story is told by Iskander Khayon a thousand sons sorcerer who joins Abbadon as one of his top generals named the Ezekarion and I personally feel this character is Aaron Dembski-Bowdens personal mouthpiece being a voice of logic and reason among the traitors as well as feeling very noble as he resents his forced role of being among the Chaos forces in the first place. His storyline and characterization defines the series and is perhaps the most beautiful arc ive seen having me lust for the third novel like an addict looking for his next hit. ADB manages to humanize Chaos like no one else and while keeping them as deluded antagonists these forces do not feel like they are cartoonishly evil and are more like, well we are forced to live in hell we might as well use its powers or get killed by other madmen. ADB is like nothing else in that he is able to tell grand lore stories but from an individual perspective which I do not think ever switches, the entire story is Iskander Khayon's perspective, witnessing the slow rise of Abbadon to becoming warmaster of Chaos and again what is wonderful about this series is that its 40k Iskander Khayon telling the story of 30k/31k Iskander Khayon much like how the movie Good Fellas is this mobster retelling his life story from rags to riches and back again giving context here and there from future perspectives. Just as an example he mentions how early Abbadon's aura had the air of destiny and power about him like a Primarch while he notes that looking at him or just being near him in the 40k timeline is painful describing him more like the Emperor or the Horus of old but without the slavery to the 4 gods. I think what's truly marvelous about this series is you get into the heads of the early Black Legion and what brings these various misfits together to form the most powerful/dominate CSM faction and that while they are all very different characters you see how they all fit together as "friends" but you also see how they all need Abaddon who is very much his father's son in terms of being a leader of men and a unifier. Abbadon's whole identify is centered around I won't make the same mistakes as my dad. In summary what ADB does with this series is beautiful as he weaves the little picture with the big picture seamlessly telling the grand beginnings of one of the most important characters from a small perspective, seeing more of the men and not the legends while doing absolutely wonderful world building lore stuff. I dont think any few paragraphs could do these two books justice in terms of their depth and im sure someone who really knows literature and writing could do a much better job describing what ADB does. I highly recommend reading them back to back. My only real criticism is that the climax of Black Legion is divided between two very different antagonists or battles and feels a bit rushed and convenient but it's a rather small criticism and given the plot I feel ADB painted himself into a corner a little bit. Other than that, I could say that some of the other main characters feel a little one note like yeah this is a dark Eldar, this is a world eater I get it. I also feel like the relationship between Khayon and his pet Dark Eldar needs better explanation as well as Khayon being a bit weird/hypocritical as he deeply cares about some humans but then doesnt give a about sacrificing humans or betraying his brothers for the sake of keeping something secret. I could chalk it down to Khayon has ptsd from Prospero and is a bit mentally f'd up. I could describe Khayon as the honor role student who gets kicked out of home and falls in with a bunch of drug addicts and Abbadon is like their Tylder Durden getting them to fix up a broken down house. If anything this story is very obviously a dark version of King Arthur's court where the third novel is about Abbadon getting Excalibur and being crowned Warmaster by Khayon. Book 1 is Khayon has ptsd, book 2 is Abbadon gives Khayon psychotherapy by getting him to murder people, forget his past while setting his eyes on a new future, I think Black Legion could be renamed Khayon gets his mojo back. Book 3 will be, Abbadon is king Arthur claiming his sword and kingdom (and while I know space marines dont do this but I think Khayon needs to get laid or something.) Honestly I think the only way this series could get better is if somehow Aaron could fenagle Lotara Sarin into it or have Abbadon say how much he hates Erebus while doing bad things to Erebus or ruining his plans maybe have a call back to someone remembering Argel Tal.

 

I think my favourite scene in the series is when Abbadon's court is informed that the Imperium Worships the God Emperor and Telemachon  turns into The Joker, loses his mind laughing at the bitter irony while everyone else is just doing a double take at hearing the term God Emperor. 

 

 

 

I will use my psychic powers and make a best guesstimate that black legion 3 will be named The End of Empires or Drach'nyen and it better come out "soon".

Edited November 23, 2022 by Krelious

[DukeLeto69]

7 hours ago, Noserenda said:

I think Ghosts really hit their stride with Necropolis and have been dropping off the last 4-5 books, back in the old days though Abnett was writing a bit above his peers (So much junk) and the power of recurring characters in inferno was strong, you immediately recognised the type of story you were going to get and could engage even if you didnt recognise the author by name, that and GW ran with and promoted them pretty heavily. 

Also, this might be anecdotal but before the internet i think the print works certainly felt more popular, we had a joke on the store minibus to one event that nearly everyone had brought Inferno to read on the way up, which established those characters with a whole bunch of hobbyists who might watch a lore video or read a wiki to get a summary these days, which gave the magazines of the time a lot more influence.

Interesting (to me) that you think the last 4-5 Ghost books mark a drop off. For me, The Victory arc has been the high point! Folks n strokes as they say.

[cheywood]

Horus Rising - 10/10

 

Decided to do a Heresy re-read with the last books arriving soon. As someone who prefers to avoid bleeding eyes I’m sticking with Abnett, ADB, Wraight, French, and Haley. This is my third time reading through the Heresy’s opening chapter, and I think I loved it more than ever. After 60 plus books filled with plot and prose both exceptional and vile, it’s easy to forget (at least for this reader) that the series began on such an incredible note.

 

Why do I love it so much? Because Abnett gives life to a setting similar to, yet clearly distinct from, the grimdark future we know so well. Characters feel hopeful, the dark shadow of damnation held in abeyance, though we as informed readers clearly know that can’t last. The prose is on point throughout, with some of Abnett’s best dialogue (and that’s saying something). Plot wise I love the way it uses three interconnected stories to illustrate the varied existence of the Crusade, from bringing minor human powers to compliance, to facing off xenos monsters and engaging in diplomatic relations with potential allied powers (RIP Interex). Philosophically I love that Abnett manages to write a searing indictment of the Imperium without ever really critiquing its morality directly. A superficial read through might even have one thinking the Imperium are the good guys. It’s such a brilliant work I almost want to read False Gods next, but I’m not a lunatic. 

 

One specific thing that struck me was how clearly the Imperium’s obsession with truth as inherently righteous opens its up to chaos later (the primordial truth). Truth is very often ugly and corruptive. Righteousness demands a moral core built on love and concern for those around you, not an obsession with being right. 
 

Also, Ignace Karkasy is Matt Berry. I refuse to hear any disagreement on this matter. 

 

The Lightning Tower - 8/10

 

A nicely foreboding tale that feels a little unresolved in my mind given that we never see

 

Curze and Dorn fight.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by cheywood

[Sothalor]

RE The Lightning Tower:

 

I always thought it was thematically resolved by the larger events of the Heresy and its aftermath. In a way, both Kurze and Dorn have their worst fears proven correct about things like destiny and dark fates, the war footing of the Great Crusade transitioning into a permanent state of existence for humanity, the fratricidal nature that comes to define Primarch and Astartes relationships, etc.

 

I'd actually go so far as to make the argument that it works better they don't fight one another; it's an acknowledgement that the issues and themes of The Lightning Tower are bigger than any one individual. They aren't problems you can attribute to somebody else, go beat them down, and have done with it.

 

They are the expressions of... how did ADB put it in the Echoes of Eternity afterword? A setting built on a foundation that "reality is fundamentally broken" or something along those lines.

[cheywood]

39 minutes ago, Sothalor said:

RE The Lightning Tower:

 

I always thought it was thematically resolved by the larger events of the Heresy and its aftermath. In a way, both Kurze and Dorn have their worst fears proven correct about things like destiny and dark fates, the war footing of the Great Crusade transitioning into a permanent state of existence for humanity, the fratricidal nature that comes to define Primarch and Astartes relationships, etc.

 

I'd actually go so far as to make the argument that it works better they don't fight one another; it's an acknowledgement that the issues and themes of The Lightning Tower are bigger than any one individual. They aren't problems you can attribute to somebody else, go beat them down, and have done with it.

 

They are the expressions of... how did ADB put it in the Echoes of Eternity afterword? A setting built on a foundation that "reality is fundamentally broken" or something along those lines.

As always, that’s very well said. I can’t say I think you’re wrong by any means philosophically, but I still feel a little shortchanged from a character perspective.
 

‘Fight’ was the wrong word on my part. I don’t want Rogal and Curze to engage one another physically, I think their relationship deserved more development. They represent interesting counterparts - Dorn is grounded intensely in the physical realm (perhaps more than any other primarch except Vulkan?) while Curze at the time of the Heresy is a creature of maddening visions. One is steadfast, the other mercurial as only the insane can be. It would’ve been interesting to see how Curze fought on Terra, and even more interesting to see how Dorn reacted to his presence.