Rate what you Read, or the fight against Necromancy

[Wulfburk]

Now finished Saturnine.

 

Easily my favorite 40k book so far. No doubt about it (well, maybe I gotta re-read Path of Heaven and Eisenhorn Xenos, and compare). After reading several 40k books in the space of a week or so, gauging them from "meh" to "good", but not that kind of good that means you'll be thinking about it and re-reading it in the future, Saturnine instead awed me, in a way I had forgotten fiction could (which, again, probably means that another LotR read is in due).

 

I can't count how many times I was thinking to myself, my god, Dan Abnett is brilliant. And I'm not talking about the big battles or what not, but more about character dialogue, the informal way it was written, and the so many payoffs I wasnt expecting.

 

I mean, in the hands of another writer, I might've thought dialogue such as

Spoiler

Dorn saying "I am the fortress now"

 to be just cringeworthy. But instead, with the way the text flowed and the cadency of Abnett's characters conversations and the way he depicts their thought processes, I thought it brilliant.

 

And unlike The Lost And the Damned and The First Wall, all single threads had my full attention, from the perpetuals, sister of silence, to the remembrancers, human soldiers, astartes, and what not. All threads converge seamlessly, and the utter complexity and maze of the siege becomes a coherent, and utterly amazing, story.

 

Of course, it helps that my favorite thing about Warhammer 40k is the Imperial Fist legion. And oh boy, Saturnine is quite a treat if you like the Imperial Fists. Camba-Diaz, my man.

 

Still 3 siege books to read to reach the current state of affairs, but my hype for Abnett's finale could not be greater.

 

 

[Scribe]

The Carrion Throne - Chris Wraight

 

Amazing. I was taking part in a conversation here in a different thread, talking about how the Imperium exists, how it functions. The concept of a 'united Imperium' is to me such an obvious fallacy it shouldnt even be questioned, but well....

 

This book inside 100 pages did so much. That this was published over 5 years ago, is a tragedy.

 

The madness of Terra? Check.

The insanity, the oppressive DREAD, of what it is to be a human in 40K? Check.

The mind boggling vastness, the time abyss of history? Check.

The SCALE of what it would be to exist there? Check.

 

The undeniably fractured, fractious, distrustful, self defeating nature of the Imperium?!? CHECK.

 

Wraight is one of my holy trinity of authors. I've said so many times, since Wrath of Iron. This is all just so good. Start to finish, first page to last.

 

I am forever in @Roomsky 's debt for providing me this series, and it instantly should be included in the list of books that answer 'What is 40K?"

 

 Awesome. I have...no complaints here, and in fact its even shifted my view on an upcoming setting event thats bound to happen, if they allow authors like ADB or Wraight to guide us.

 

10 out of 10.

[Roomsky]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

The Carrion Throne - Chris Wraight

 

 

Of Wraight's five 40k Terra-centric novels, this one remains my favourite, and I agree with the 10 rating. It's an amazing piece that stands perfectly well on its own as an encapsulation of what 40k is all about. I think the cracks start to show as this series goes on, but this first entry is just superbly done. The focus on just how wretched the Imperium's capital is remains untouched.

 

And very happy to assist! 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Roomsky

[theSpirea]

So glad you got to read it. It's one of my favorite sci-fi novels. It's a shame it's under WH40K so not many people outside of the hobby get to read it and appreciate it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea carrion throne stands above the rest of its series and the Watchers series. 

 

Its hard to recreate that same initial view of terra as events progress with the days of blindness, but imo that's what worked so well to start with.

[Fedor]

I think Abnett hits about 50/50 with his one-liners and more Whedonish side, but his efforts in Saturnine always come back to Loken's line when he kills Aximand.

 

Jesus christ, what was he thinking. An out of character stinker that might be the worst single quip in the series. All of the authors have dropped in clunkers at some point, but the placement of this was egregious. It's a million miles away from Aximand and Torgaddon's bleak gravitas during the original mournival showdown; here Loken may as well have been wearing a captain america costume, sinking in a right cross on the Red Skull's chin.

 

It doesn't help that when viewed in totality, the siege has so many of these loyalist puns as they gain notable smaller scale victories, or make heroic last stands. It ends up oversaturated, and few land well for me, especially when not concerning "normal" humans, where i have a lot more time for that sort of thing. Not to get too "faction wars" about it, but i recall a fairly recent post on another site, one that pointed out the tone has reached one of almost fetishistic humiliation in the way many of these personal confrontations play out in defeat for the traitor/chaotic characters. I couldn't help but reluctantly agree with it, and it's invested the siege with an undercurrent that stinks of cape comics big bad defeats to me. Not that i can't dig that sort of thing in its own lane, but it's a vibe that only works sparingly in 40k imo.

 

tbf, if Abnett sticks close to the original shocking murder of a weary, far out of his depth Sanguinius by Horus, all will be forgiven.

[Fedor]

1 minute ago, Fedor said:

I think Abnett hits about 50/50 with his one-liners and more Whedonish side, but his efforts in Saturnine always come back to Loken's line when he kills Aximand.

 

Jesus christ, what was he thinking. An out of character stinker that might be the worst single quip in the series. All of the authors have dropped in clunkers at some point, but the placement of this was egregious. It's a million miles away from Aximand and Torgaddon's bleak gravitas during the original mournival showdown; here Loken may as well have been wearing a captain america costume, sinking in a right cross on the Red Skull's chin.

 

It doesn't help that when viewed in totality, the siege has so many of these loyalist puns as they gain notable smaller scale victories, or make heroic last stands. It ends up oversaturated, and few land well for me, especially when not concerning "normal" humans, where i have a lot more time for that sort of thing. Not to get too "faction wars" about it, but i recall a fairly recent post on another site, one that pointed out the tone has reached one of almost fetishistic humiliation in the way many of these personal confrontations play out in defeat for the traitor/chaotic characters. I couldn't help but reluctantly agree with it, and it's invested the siege with an undercurrent that stinks of cape comics big bad defeats to me. Not that i can't dig that sort of thing in its own lane, but it's a vibe that only works sparingly in 40k imo. There have been some good showdowns that avoided the ham of course, Sigismund vs Khârn, or Krole vs Khârn come to mind.

 

tbf, if Abnett sticks close to the original shocking murder of a weary, far out of his depth Sanguinius by Horus, all will be forgiven.

 

[Scribe]

The Hollow Mountain - Chris Wraight

 

More of a character piece, a clear bridge book. Carrying on from where the last book left off, this is not a bad book, it simply cannot match the crushing pace, the urgency, of Carrion Throne.

 

I think, it was the way he had the first book play out with a timeline. We knew the timeline, we watched the events unfold, and we knew time was running out, that urgency was communicated through the text in Carrion Throne, in a way this one couldn't or just didnt capture.

 

As an evolution of the characters, I think this is still a good book, I think it just simply cannot stand up to Carrion Thrones pace, and structure.

 

Wraight is still a master. Terra is still a den of filth. The Imperium is still a dysfunctional mess.

 

The description of the Hollow Mountain, is awesome. I dont know if all of his lore is original to this book or if it was expanded on previously, but I loved it, and the Nexus, may have been right up there with it, if not supplanting it.

 

Its most common we get the battlefield view. We get the Astartes, we get the Guard, etc etc. I think its awesome to see 'well what happens when Procurement is taken into the 40K universe? Shipping and Receiving? Merchant Guilds and Charters? Because honestly, Chris nails it. Those organizations would be IMMENSELY rich and powerful.

 

This is still a great story. Its still Wraight, and hes amazing. Its simply not the Carrion Throne.

 

8-9 out of 10, but that may be because Carrion Throne kind of broke my view on what a '10' is.

[Roomsky]

Titan-themed re-reads Double Feature

 

Modifying my usual format for this one in comparing two books with a similar focus. With Mortis dropping in MMPB (in some places, at least) I decided to give it a re-read. Part way through, my impression was "I still like this but wow, Tetracauron sucks." So, I got to thinking: "hey, Haley may have originally been slated to write this one, and Abhani Lus is the best part of the titan sections here. Should Haley have written this instead?" Which I'm sure sounds like blasphemy to some and an obvious "yes" to others.

 

I certainly have a rather pronounced bias in French's favour, but to Haley's credit I enjoy his books with a human focus well enough. So, I finished my re-read of Mortis and gave Titandeath a semi re-read by way of audiobook. Here's my thoughts:

 

Mortis - John French

 

I still think this book is quite good (and it gets WAY too much hate from the wider community,) but I didn't love it as much as the first time. The crushing Siege atmosphere I praised French for remains, but now I've read Echoes of Eternity which generally does it better. That said, it still captures the souring of Dorn's expectations after Saturnine very well, and in terms of pure traitor progress it remains one of the bleakest in the series.

 

I do feel like a bit of French's normal flare is missing here, and I'm not sure if it's due to unfamiliar subject matter or if he was just mis-applying his talents. I would generally describe French's writing style as "less is more." He often uses very terse descriptions for cataclysmic or horrifying events, letting the reader's imagination fill in the gaps better than any line of text could (eg: writing how a window was too small for a human to survive going through it and hearing their skull cracking, rather than using livid detail to describe all the bloody specifics.) I found the titan sections of this book didn't really apply that strength, and in attempting to write the majesty of the god engines so directly French undermined his own intent.

 

Legio Mortis has no POVs in this story, which could have worked fine if they were better conveyed as a soulless force of annihilation, but I never felt the dread I think French wanted me to at the Dies Irae's presence. All his grand descriptions kind of blended into everything else going on. Speaking of which, I thought there was probably too much focus on titans exchanging fire instead of the overall tactical situation. I'm not saying a Mortis engine shouldn't go down to focused fire with more difficulty than a loyalist one, but there should have been more attention paid to how little isolated kills meant in the ongoing, losing, battle. And that isn't really a problem when following Nasuba, Dorn, Abhani Lus, Acastia, etc. But Tetracauron is all action all the time and I wish his sections weren't even here. The book is 500+ pages anyway, dropping him would have been no big deal, especially when his death only seems to come because the book was ending.

 

Everything else I liked though, even if some of it didn't have the special sauce I look for in French's writing. Paradise is awesome, and I liked the continuation of Oll's story in practice if occasionally not conceptually. You really do feel the desperation of the loyalist perspective here, even if you're occasionally not sure why. I liked Corswain, I think Pert's departure was handled very well and with surprising class, and while Acastia and Abhani Lus could have used more pagetime, I enjoyed what I got from the both of them.

 

So, still good, not amazing. 7.5/10

 

 

Titandeath - Guy Haley (Audiobook)

 

Surprisingly good, honestly. I still hate Haley's primarchs and most of his space marines, but when those aren't the focus of his stories they tend to read pretty well. Between this, Flesh and Steel, and Belisarius Cawl I have a lot of appreciation for his work with the Mechanicus. Man needs an editor though.

 

The amount of exposition apropos of nothing in this book is absurd. Haley has a bad habit of going on long tangents for the sake of world building, and you really feel it here. Honestly I'd be happy enough if someone would just tell Haley to reframe his narrated exposition into dialogue. I don't mind when Protos babbles on about technical minutiae because the way he says it also informs his character (a pompous intellectual sadist.) When I can't remember the names or characteristics of any but 4 of the members of Legio Solaria, perhaps some of that exposition should have been given to them?

 

But for all that, the book still does very well in 1: depicting Titan combat in a digestible way and 2: making us care about the important POVs. Mohana Mankata Vi, Esha, Abhani Lus, Jehani Jehan, and Harrtek are all laughing at Tetracauron for how little characterization he got, and for how confusing some of his chapters were. And when this book remembers to be about characters instead of sundry information, it really hits its stride. I find that especially funny because the last third or so wastes no time on excessive detail despite the cataclysmic scale of the Titandeath. I just wish the same restraint had been shown with the rest, considering how over-long this thing is.

 

Hated the Knight pilots though. Flat, boring, waste of page space.

 

And while the main titan POVs here are well done, there are several passages where in an inversion of Mortis, I applaud the intent more than the execution. The humanity of a titan pilot dealing with a pregnancy is startlingly human in this series, but man is some of it badly done. Esha's flirting with Harrtek is cringeworthy; she must have decided to bone him before he opened his mouth because I can't imagine someone becoming more attracted to him after hearing him speak. Jehani Jehan's response to Esha carrying the baby to term also makes her impressively unsympathetic - "murder this child because evil is in the blood or we're no longer friends" after it's come to term is just… well, it's honestly kind of funny for how silly it is.

 

A good book when it plays to its strengths, marred by being a bloated mess. 6.5/10

 

 

So as to the question: Should Haley have written Mortis?

 

Eh, probably not - because while Haley's titan pilots were better than French's, he didn't actually accomplish anything different than making the protagonists compelling. French did that in Mortis, because the main character was Oll. Tetracauron takes up too much page space, but he's one of many sub-plots. Haley also had underdeveloped pilots in his story, the Knight house, and they're just as boring as Tetracauron was. I'll give Haley that he may have structured things differently to make boring pilots less obnoxious, but he'd inevitably have dropped the ball in other areas. After Pert's dialogue in LatD, I shudder to imagine his version of Pert leaving the Siege. And that's okay, because Dawn of Fire is better than Haley's Siege work would have been anyway.

[Noserenda]

14 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

 

The description of the Hollow Mountain, is awesome. I dont know if all of his lore is original to this book or if it was expanded on previously, but I loved it, and the Nexus, may have been right up there with it, if not supplanting it.

 

I get the feeling at least that a few of the Authors chatted about this, or terra in general between the Beast saga, Battle of Terra and the modern 40k series' set on Terra because the astronomicon comes up in a few of those books alongside the rest of Terra and the consistency is good :) 

[Scribe]

10 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I get the feeling at least that a few of the Authors chatted about this, or terra in general between the Beast saga, Battle of Terra and the modern 40k series' set on Terra because the astronomicon comes up in a few of those books alongside the rest of Terra and the consistency is good :) 

 

My favourite part was probably the old door. :)

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Harrowmaster - 6.x out of 10. Add or subtract a point depending on if you love or hate the Alpha Legion and do the same depending on if you hate or love Primaris Marines. If you feel any particular antipathy towards the Silver Templars, this may be your book of the year.

[Scribe]

The Dark City - Chris Wraight

 

This gripped me. I've powered through the series, and this final entry is great. Just finished it.

 

If Carrion Throne is a 10, and it is, and this is not, its only because it cannot stand so well on its own. The characters continue to grow, the truth of how the Imperium's institutions behave, and ultimately the climax of the book is perfect. I think there was at least 1 editorial flaw, but thats nothing major, I dont get hung up on such things.

 

The Imperium Wraight paints, is the Imperium I understand. It fights to continue to exist, to endure, because it is right to do so and for no extra reason beyond that. 40K is BRITISH, it really is, and that stiff upper lip, and keep calm and carry on, just ENDURE, just keep going, I mean thats Crowl the whole time isnt it?

 

Its actually, amusingly given the end, as uplifting a book as you should expect out of 40K.

 

I say again, Wraight is an absolute master.

 

9.5 / 10.

 

This collection is now part of my personal canon, of what 40K is, what it should always be, and what I hope GW/BL will never ruin.

 

Its factually tragic, that this series is not more widely available.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Scribe

[Roomsky]

Well Scribe, I'm certainly glad someone who loves the last book owns that hardcover now, lol.

 

The Dark City has the issue I've come to have with a lot of Wraight's more recent output: the first half or so is really boring.

 

Now, Wraight works very hard on something I really appreciate: instead of having humanity collectively lose several IQ points over the last 30 - 40,000 years, he creates characters who act intelligently but believably come from a monstrous society. His human characters especially are completely warped by the Imperium, but easily have "normal" conversations because they aren't inherently stupid or insane. Unfortunately, I find this leads to a lot of "reasonable people having very logical conversations," which while laudable is also supremely dull. Like, gimme little a dysfunction, as a treat. I know they're going to find Crowl even on a first read, so I need more than that to get me through that first half - and Spinoza does not cut it IMO. It's like reading about a low-stakes office meeting in space.

 

Wraight is clearly very smart and a good writer who really gets the setting - but I feel it's starting to distract him from what makes an enjoyable yarn. Don't go full Nolan on us, Wraight.

 

My second issue is just that I think the ending is pretty lame (and not in a "BRO IT DIDN'T ADVANCE THE SETTING BRO" kind of way.) It could have been an expectations thing, but I heard a lot of people praising it for how depressing and grimdark it was. Maybe I'm desensitized at this point but it doesn't feel any more depressing or grimdark than your average

everyone dies 

BL ending. With Wraight's talents he could have dug the knife deeper than what honestly feels like a cookie-cutter resolution to an interesting plot. This whole series seemed to be about how bleak the Imperium is but the ending is no more bleak than usual. `Twas a big letdown, for me.

[Scribe]

Fair points Roomsky, to me after the first book, I wasnt really treating them as stand alone novels. They were just a trilogy that ebbed and flowed. Was the early part of The Dark City slower? Yeah, a bit for sure. I was looking at it from a perspective not of 'will they find him' because of course they would, but instead 'how will they find him' and just picking up bits and pieces as it went.

 

The series strength to me, is a lot of that kind of high level view of things, brought into a slice/focus, and then back out. We saw quite a bit of dysfunction I thought, but again maybe its because I was looking at it as a series, and the whole, vs just some individual stand alone works.

 

The setting shouldnt advance, so for me the ending was great. :)

 

As to how its grim? I dont think it really is/was. I found it uplifting. I found there was enough (realistic for the time/place/setting) resolution of the relationship's between Spinoza and Crowl, and Revus. I felt the character growth of Spinoza was more than enough especially when we consider this isnt taking place over years, but instead likely closer to a month and half (I think?) I mean in that light its quite a bit of character shift for her. I think as I was walking my dog it actually came to me why I really cannot play Imperial factions.

 

The Imperium itself, is the Imperium Wraight portrayed. Its dysfunctional, hateful, spiteful, and thats only in regards to itself. Externally, its even worse. There is nothing to celebrate there.

 

The servants of the Imperium are either Spinoza at the start, a True Believer Fanatic, insane, morally jaded to say the least, or as we see with all the main characters by the end, making the right choice (to them) for their own reasons, but ultimately out of a sense of belief. They are still human, even the AdMech or Custodians, heck even Gorgias is within the family tree of 'humanity', and was the comedy relief to me.

 

The result of people clinging to their morality, is undoubtedly, death. Doing the right thing? Death. Thats the setting. Heck Crowl had initially requested Spinoza, to undo the legacy of a fellow Inquisitor. Its all so petty, and yet Crowl was appreciated by his people, for at least showing care for their wellbeing, while he was also torturing his fellow man, even those who had helped him earlier.

 

Rambling now as I think on it, but I dont think the point is how bleak the Imperium/Terra is.

 

I think the point is, Crowl. Spinoza is the Imperium, Crowl is cut from a different cloth, and he has a belief, that he will see through regardless of the cost, regardless of the consequences. We see this in all 3 books.

 

Do you cling to your belief, or do you do the pragmatic thing? Most of the time, people justify the Imperium with pragmaticism. "They have to be terrible, look at the Galaxy around them!"

 

Well this time, we have a story where the point is subverted. He does not do what is Pragmatic. He follows his gut, and see's it through to the very end, and damn anyone who is in the general vicinity. :D

 

EDIT:

 

Spoiler

Like heres the thing, if the plot line is correct, Crowl damned the Imperium, out of a sense of what was about to transpire, was the height of Heresy. He wasnt saving the Imperium, he, and everyone else there, damned it.

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Scribe

[Roomsky]

Fair points and well-written all round.

 

Probably an expectations thing, indeed, because I agree the ending was somewhat uplifting. It just didn't want that, which I suppose is unfair of me but I was really hoping for the trilogy to stand as a no-holds barred statement on what the Imperium is. It's not enough for me that clinging to morality is death, I want it to be death in vain. No individual can save the day in the Imperium, no single individual can affect change for good or for ill. There's always bigger fish, always a bigger cog in the machine. There is no power of individual human will in the 41st millenium. It's too late for that.

 

That the choices of so few potentially doom the Imperium AND the Dark Eldar is too much sway for Crowl and co, IMO.

 

Is it wrong for me to want a "Shoot the Shaggy Dog" story? Perhaps. But damn, I wanted it.

[Scribe]

43 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

Is it wrong for me to want a "Shoot the Shaggy Dog" story? Perhaps. But damn, I wanted it.

 

No, not wrong but...isnt that the black comedy of this book in the end?

 

Spoiler

What is the plot here really? I just finished a nice drive along our dark and rainy coastline, thinking about this.

 

Its not belabored, but our characters are predominantly Ordo Hereticus. Crowl, Zijes, and Spinoza are all part of the Ordo, and even Revus shows fanatical tendency where he bristles at a priests seeming wavering faith. What drew an immediate reaction from Zijes while talking to the Fabricator-General? The implication that the Emperor is Mortal.

 

These are, in short, Religious Fanatics, and thats the irony of this series.

 

I bemoan anything that would take 40K away from being grimdark. I will fight against it, claw against it, to my last breath, and the day GW ruins that, is the day I walk away from the setting/game forever. This book, is a subversion of what we would expect, where the protagonist is thwarted but...lets look at this.

 

Crowl, taken out with his nemesis at the end. Not implied to be a good way to go.

Spinoza, assumed dead or worse, captured by Dark Eldar.

Zijes, shot in the head, in a moment of horror, as he was being captured. Better dead, than a prisoner to the Dark Eldar.

Revus, Khazad - Yes they have a moment of levity...right before they either die, or are captured by the Dark Eldar.

Custodes - Probably blew up.

High Lord, Fabricator-General, probably blown up.

Our boy, Gorgias, he took that left turn in Albuquerque, err the Webway, and ended up on an Exodite world, broken, alone, running out of juice, with it all on record...to be lost.

 

Crowl succeeds in his goal, he sways all to his side at the end, because they are all either religious zealots, or so blindly dedicated to Him-on-Terra, that the idea of growing a new Emperor from a drop of blood is so Heretical, that everyone loses their minds AND DAMNS 2 CIVILIZATIONS.

 

Its so perfectly on point, so deliciously grim and nonsensical, that the clean up after is...frankly an after thought. It simply doesn't matter if they live or die. Who cares anymore? Crowl, right, wrong, or indifferent, has succeed in finding the truth of the entire plot, the whole conspiracy and...

 

Damned the Imperium to an eventual destruction when (not IF) the Throne fails. That they all bite it after is just taking your trope, and 40K'ing it, no?

 

 

[Roomsky]

I appreciate that view of events and it makes me dislike the book less! Much appreciated.

 

I'm still very content for just owning the Omnibus (or perhaps a fancy trilogy box set a la the recent Dark Imperium) when it eventually drops, though. Like with French's Ahriman series, I'm not in any hurry to ever re-read just one of them (excepting The Carrion Throne.)

[Scribe]

Just now, Roomsky said:

I appreciate that view of events and it makes me dislike the book less! Much appreciated.

 

I'm still very content for just owning the Omnibus (or perhaps a fancy trilogy box set a la the recent Dark Imperium) when it eventually drops, though. Like with French's Ahriman series, I'm not in any hurry to ever re-read just one of them (excepting The Carrion Throne.)

 

:)

 

Yeah, I think if/when we get a special release for this I may splurge, but I have to let it ruminate a bit I think at this point. I was supposed to run errands today and finished the book instead.

 

I certainly agree though, that unless its a full series read, I wouldnt be interested in anything but Carrion Throne.

[Wulfburk]

Now finished the rest of the Siege.

 

Mortis: 6.5/10

An ok book, as average as the average Horus Heresy novels. No glaring defects but no great qualities either. I think I enjoyed reading Titandeath (which I'd give a 7) way more than Mortis. My favorite part was Katsuhiro, Shiban and, surprisingly, the Dark Angels.

 

Warhawk: 8.8/10

and Echoes of Eternity: 8.8/10

This is a tough one. For now, I'll rate them the same, as I loved them both. Echoes of Eternity's prose was superb, and most likely the best so far in the Siege.  ADB's a poet. However, EoE is also the least Siege-of-Terra-novel-series book of the series so far. Warhawk's a sequel to Path of Heaven, yes, but it achieves that by merging with the ongoing siege threads quite well. I dont think Echoes managed that.. or rather, ADB obviously did not even try. And imo, he could've, and should've, have tried to do so, to the betterment of the series as a whole. Maybe ADB doesnt likes perpetuals (to the thunderclaps of a few people, I guess)? Well, who better to write a wee bit about their current gang and make them interesting. So yes, maybe if not continuing Oll and John's trip, it should've at least continued one or two threads such as Loken, Garro, Keeler, Sigismund, Fo, Abbadon. Yes, not them all, but just one or two. And I trust in ADB's skills that he could've certainly made it work and not steal the shine from the Blood Angels and World Eaters. But nevertheless, EoE's my favorite ADB book so far. Arkham Land and Tee were really cool.

 

I'm a big fan of Chris Wraight's White Scars though, and Path of Heaven is amazing, while Warhawk did not disappoint. So I'm getting this funny feeling that Warhawk will be much more enjoyable on re-reads in the future,. Also, one thing I noticed, which I might be wrong (reading so many books in the space of a week or two, you tend to confuse who did what and on where or in which book), but EoE's cast feels surprisingly small. It has so many short descriptions of named characters being first referenced and then fighting/dying in the same singular page, and I really loved them (honorable mention to the escaped prisoner then press-ganged woman). However due to their very nature, they go just as they've come, and they dont stick with you. So in the end, its what, 4 characters? 5? From start to end. The cast of Saturnine and Warhawk felt immensely larger than EoE's, to the detriment of the later. Now thinking about it, maybe these particular criticisms of mine directed to EoE's structure should mean a lower score than Warhawk. But what can I do. ADB just writes goddamn well.

 

Which I guess brings me to Saturnine and the rest of the books, that I didnt give a score yet, so might as well, and order them:

Saturnine: 10/10

Warhawk: 8.8/10 AND Echoes of Eternity 8.8/10

The Solar War: 8.2/10

The Lost and the Damned: 6.8/10

Mortis: 6.5/10

The FIrst Wall: 5.5/10

 

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, Wulfburk said:

And imo, he could've, and should've, have tried to do so, to the betterment of the series as a whole. Maybe ADB doesnt likes perpetuals (to the thunderclaps of a few people, I guess)? Well, who better to write a wee bit about their current gang and make them interesting.

 

They arent though, interesting that is.

 

The HH should be about if anyone, the Emperor, and Horus. That is who should have had puddles of ink spilled over them. The rest of the side plots are completely ignorable side plots for a reason.

 

They didnt exist before, they dont need to exist now.

[Wulfburk]

I mean, Saturnine is the best reviewed siege book, and better reviewed than every single Horus Heresy novel (according to goodreads). So there's an odd chance that a lot of people did find these threads interesting.

 

But besides, having Abbadon, or Loken, Keeler, Sigismund and what not take part would obviously be as much about them as Horus and the Emperor. And if not them, other recurring characters that shown up in the other novels, or new characters followig old subplots of the other books. Instead we had a whole lot about the Blood Angels that maybe, a small part of it, could've been in a Primarch novel. EoE feels like the Blood Angels-World Eaters version of Praetorian of Dorn, and not a siege novel. Of course, Praetorian of Dorn is great, and so is EoE, this notwithstanding imo.

 

I understand that the source of this issue might be what came before. While the 5th had Scars and Path of Heaven, and the 7th (or the 4th, for ADB? that was truly weird) had Praetorian of Dorn and the Crimson Fist, the 9th was stuck with Fear to Tread and what, Ruinstorm? So in comparison, another reason to like EoE, best portrayal of the Blood Angels so far. But to kick a dead horse, I still feel that some additional subplots or point of views, not so closely connected to the World Eaters and Blood Angels personal stories, but to the siege as a whole, would've fit the book.

 

But either way I'm really hyped for Abnett's finale.

[DarkChaplain]

Goodreads has a pretty big cliff between Abnett & ADB and other authors, though. A lot of people will pick up (and usually love) anything by their favorites, while ignoring the "lesser" authors (in their opinion). Saturnine also has the first real "big" scenes and reveals, like a Primarch duel. Angron hasn't been in the midst of things before, Fulgrim vs Dorn, Loken and Garro showed up after being basically no-shows since Solar War...

 

But after Saturnine, Goodreads readership of the Siege also takes a big dip. Mortis pulled few more ratings and reviews than Fury of Magnus and Sons of the Selenar, and is the lowest-rated novel. And you know what Mortis was BIIIG on?

Perpetuals.

 

If we want to attribute Saturnine's popularity in any way with the Perpetual storyline, we'd also have to consider the direct continuation of that storyline in the lowest-rated book following right after.

 

But then, Goodreads is notorious for having people rating books at 5 stars months and years before they're even finished. My big bugbear is still Scott Lynch's The Thorn of Emberlain.... a book that was supposed to release in 2014/2015. It doesn't exist, it's not finished, it's been in the "almost done writing" state for 8 years. The author scrapped it multiple times and is struggling with mental health issues and burnout. It's placeholder release date has been pushed back for the past 7 years, over and over again.

 

It has nearly 2500 ratings on Goodreads at an average of 4.30 Stars.

 

The bias levels on Goodreads are unreal. I would caution heavily against using them as data, at least of the numerical type.

 

 

That being said, I just wish the Perpetuals were actually better implemented and not serving for so much deus ex machina storytelling, with the author / Abnett trying to set up stuff for his own microcosm in the setting. They're incredibly inconsistent and it usually feels like nobody but Abnett really knows what to do with them... and they feel like they're from a crossover event, rather than 40k/HH.

And while I'd have liked to see Horus more prominently throughout the entire series and think his absence for most of it is one of the biggest black marks against it, it's not actually the Primarchs that made the series worth reading. It's a pity that Abnett in particular managed to kill off a lot of those interesting characters on the quick, anticlimactically, in Saturnine...

[Wulfburk]

Im not atributing Saturnine's popularity to the perpetual storyline. John had a tiny role in it. But no doubt its success relies on its many povs, most of which had some sources in the previous books, and continued in the following two. EoE is the outlier. There's no reason why EoE couldnt have several more small payoffs and closures, making way for the finale. Adding such subplots could've helped imo (and again i'm not talking simply about John and Oll, but abou a host of other subplots, which indeed I enjoy, like Loken, Keeler, Sindermann).

 

And I'm not asking to just add the perpetuals, so it follows their plot, and ignore the actual quality of the writing. Like I've noted above, Mortis is only above the First Wall in my mind, and a lot of that is exactly due to the pages spent on the perpetuals. Not because of what actually happens and the characters in it, but because of how dull it was written. It felt completely stagnated for over 50 pages or something. I have a high opinion of ADB, so I trust he would've made some interesting choices in his magnum opus (not to the detriment of French, its just clear that Mortis was just a stopgap).

 

But then again, this is more about what it should've been than what it tries to be. So again, I really enjoyed the book in itself.

[cheywood]

To each their own! I love that EoE has a small cast and think Saturnine’s success is because of Abnett’s brilliant storytelling more than any inherent structural appeal relating to the number of characters. ADB’s work makes for such a unique vision of the Siege. You’re not necessarily seeing the battles play out, you’re seeing how the battles affect their participants. I think it will end up being a perfect complement to Abnett’s presumably POV-packed finale.