What Would You Like To See From The Scouring?

[karden00]

Not to pile on the Failbaddon memes but....

I kinda think it would be cool if Abaddon saw himself as outclassed vs Sigismund and put as many champions between himself and the OGEC as possible.

I truly don’t feel this has to be a knock on Abaddon, not at all.

Abaddon of 30k shouldn’t be required to be Abaddon of 41/42k, or even 31k. I fully accept what happened in Black Legion, it was lit as heck. But I feel like even at that point (in the relatively early development of Abaddon as the Chosen of Chaos) he had grown a lot since The Heresy. I know McNeil and Vengeful Spirit doesn’t get a lot of love, but I thought it pure delight when Abaddon gets the flash forward of the thought “Horus was weak. Horus was a fool.” At that point in time, on Molech (iirc) Abaddon was utterly disturbed by the revelation that he could ever doubt his genesire.

Clearly, this is a character who goes on an amazing arc.

It reminds me somewhat of Sauron. When Morgoth was still around, Sauron couldn’t quite grow into himself as the Big Bad. But when given the field by the banishment of his master, and given enough time and learning, he becomes every bit the scourge to Middle Earth his old master was.

Abaddon may not have to fear the outcome of a confrontation with Siggy, but maybe he sees it as a practical necessity of the Siege to not jeopardize himself needlessly, after all he is a top level commander, not just a top level fighter, and so orchestrates a great mess between himself and someone he has no right to believe utterly that he will prevail against.

Of course, The Siege, I hope, is one big mess, and I kind of hope people on both sides suspect themselves to be vaporized by orbital bombardment/confrontation with a rare Titan maniple, confrontation with an enemy Primarch (it would be great to see Abaddon or any other named traitor who we know survives approach a seemingly vulnerable loyalist position, only to have The Khagan ride up on a hoverbike and say “you sure you want This Fight?!” Only to have said traitor claim “the gods want key efforts elsewhere! Alas, let me move away with all haste! You there, stand between him and I...the gods...will it..?”

 

TL;DR:, I can respect Abaddon just fine without him being the Abaddon of post-heresy.

[bluntblade]

Though VS did ignore that Abaddon had already had a stand-up row with Horus over the Interex.

 

I want to see Abaddon the excellent tactician and strategist in the Siege and Scouring.

[Brother Lunkhead]

If we absolutely must have a Scouring series, then I want to see a plan I want to see that the BL Cabal has learned lessons from the Horus Heresy series. I want to see focus and I DON'T want to see fifty novels, five hundred short stories and novellas, and seventy-five audio-dramas. If we must have a Scouring series I don't want it to be a great pile on like HH ……. grumble grumble...…. Horus Heresy...… grumble grumble..... Siege of Terra.....grumble grumble.....The Scouring...….  

[bluntblade]

Thing is, the Scouring inherently follows less of a clear-cut trajectory than the Heresy.

[A D-B]

Not to pile on the Failbaddon memes but....

I kinda think it would be cool if Abaddon saw himself as outclassed vs Sigismund and put as many champions between himself and the OGEC as possible.

I truly don’t feel this has to be a knock on Abaddon, not at all.

Abaddon of 30k shouldn’t be required to be Abaddon of 41/42k, or even 31k. I fully accept what happened in Black Legion, it was lit as heck. But I feel like even at that point (in the relatively early development of Abaddon as the Chosen of Chaos) he had grown a lot since The Heresy. I know McNeil and Vengeful Spirit doesn’t get a lot of love, but I thought it pure delight when Abaddon gets the flash forward of the thought “Horus was weak. Horus was a fool.” At that point in time, on Molech (iirc) Abaddon was utterly disturbed by the revelation that he could ever doubt his genesire.

Clearly, this is a character who goes on an amazing arc.

It reminds me somewhat of Sauron. When Morgoth was still around, Sauron couldn’t quite grow into himself as the Big Bad. But when given the field by the banishment of his master, and given enough time and learning, he becomes every bit the scourge to Middle Earth his old master was.

Abaddon may not have to fear the outcome of a confrontation with Siggy, but maybe he sees it as a practical necessity of the Siege to not jeopardize himself needlessly, after all he is a top level commander, not just a top level fighter, and so orchestrates a great mess between himself and someone he has no right to believe utterly that he will prevail against.

Of course, The Siege, I hope, is one big mess, and I kind of hope people on both sides suspect themselves to be vaporized by orbital bombardment/confrontation with a rare Titan maniple, confrontation with an enemy Primarch (it would be great to see Abaddon or any other named traitor who we know survives approach a seemingly vulnerable loyalist position, only to have The Khagan ride up on a hoverbike and say “you sure you want This Fight?!” Only to have said traitor claim “the gods want key efforts elsewhere! Alas, let me move away with all haste! You there, stand between him and I...the gods...will it..?”

 

TL;DR:, I can respect Abaddon just fine without him being the Abaddon of post-heresy.

 

I get it, and I agree to an extent, but - and this is a big but - for all that it might be cool, it also doesn't really jive with the reality. Abaddon is the highest-ranking Space Marine in what was, during the Great Crusade, the most-favoured and most successful Legion - the Warmaster's Own. Yes, he has an arc that goes places in the next 10,000 years, but if you think about it... He should probably be starting out as arguably the most successful Space Marine of all time. Look at his rank. And certainly in the Top Ten, for a million obvious reasons. Again: he's the highest-ranking Space Marine in the most-favoured, most successful Legion: the Warmaster's Own. That's sort of why him being the Big Bad of the setting was such a big deal in the first place: you had what was essentially the highest-ranking Space Marine of all time leading the other Chaos Marines against the Throne. It's almost literally the theme of Lucifer.

 

(Obviously, yes, a lot of fans see PRIMARCHS!!! and immediately exalt them - and they make bank as models - but for decades it was the Chaos Marines against the Imperium, as mortals with mortal desires, urges, and agendas, not the Horus Heresy 2.0., led by the primarchs. The Long War isn't/wasn't the same conflict as the Heresy. It was the real war that rose after that mythical/legendary creation myth; the war that began when mortals took it over.

 

Now, this can sound extreme because Abaddon's not been presented like this in the series thus far, and it's not something we ever really consider as fans too often. But... Like, damn. It's true.

 

There's got to be some grey area and wiggle room between what we've seen of him so far (which is effectively... not much, at best) and what he eventually becomes. Because, really, he'd be a massive, massive deal even in the Heresy and Great Crusade, and the fact he's had such little focus isn't all that awesome. He's almost been avoided at this point; can you imagine any other lore-famous First Captain being so devoid of glory in the series as Abaddon has been? At least we know Sigismund's moment in the sun is coming. Abaddon really, really needs something like that, too. Nothing to do with me or my opinions; purely because it's sort of insane he's been so sidelined thus far, given his rank and position and power.

[Marshal Rohr]

That's why Yarant is going to be some much needed fleshing out. Abaddon vs. Russ. 

[bluntblade]

Very true. Within the context of the Heresy, the Forge World books have done more for his image than anything BL have put out.

 

And even then, that amounts to his banner (because the SoH Exemplary Battles are all about Horus, except for Luna) and his sack of Manachea in Conquest.

[Fedor]

So who is left as things are right now that Sigismund is likely to duel with? I'm guessing there will be some new traitor perspectives, but who is most likely to show up that has had some screen time in the series so far? I've lost track of everyone a bit.

[Sete]

Khârn. (Ah phone autocorrects)

[Slan Drakkos]

Here's hoping that when the Scouring era books come out, we get to see a different side of Abaddon. I want to see him as the brilliant if not volatile commander that he is. We've already seen his fighting prowess, so now show us his tactical abilities. I want to see him out maneuvering the groups that are hunting the traitors, staying one step ahead, pulling the fractured legions back from the brink after the loss at Terra, and showing the traits that Garner the (grudging) respect that he has from traitors and loyalists alike ten millennia later.

 

Outside of that, I genuinely want to see A D-B writing the Iron Cage. Say what you want to about his almost G.R.R. Martin level ability to make us fall in love with a character before killing them off, the man knows how to write horrifically one-sided massacres as legitimate fights and above all else, he knows how to write unaligned traitor astartes as genuine, flawed characters instead of cardboard cutouts with functioning guns.

 

I also hope to see Josh Reynolds writing the Emperor's Children and their escapades (read: high impact sexual violence) as they move from one planet to the next in search of their horrible pleasure. Maybe have Ian St. Martin write a book about Lucius and what he's doing.

So who is left as things are right now that Sigismund is likely to duel with? I'm guessing there will be some new traitor perspectives, but who is most likely to show up that has had some screen time in the series so far? I've lost track of everyone a bit.

Egil Galerius and Lucius of the III legion are both stated/implied to have faced Sigismund, Khârn is implied to have faced him, Sevatar could very well die by his hand, Little Horus is an unlikely (but still active) candidate, Erebus or Khor Pheron (maybe even Marduk) could try to fight him, and the Dies Irae is still around.

 

Please note: According to Galerius of the Emperor's Children, not everyone that Sigi fought was killed by him. The final blow could have been delivered by someone else or the traitor could have escaped entirely (as is the case with Galerius) to live another day.

 

Also, of all of the named traitors that I've mentioned, the Dies Irae is the only one that could possibly have a chance against the future Knight King.....if he has a cold.....and loses his sword.....and all of his limbs before fighting the Emperor Class Titan.

[Vesper]

 

There's got to be some grey area and wiggle room between what we've seen of him so far (which is effectively... not much, at best) and what he eventually becomes. Because, really, he'd be a massive, massive deal even in the Heresy and Great Crusade, and the fact he's had such little focus isn't all that awesome. He's almost been avoided at this point; can you imagine any other lore-famous First Captain being so devoid of glory in the series as Abaddon has been? At least we know Sigismund's moment in the sun is coming. Abaddon really, really needs something like that, too. Nothing to do with me or my opinions; purely because it's sort of insane he's been so sidelined thus far, given his rank and position and power.

 

 

Indeed. That's really how I feel about Abaddon's run in the series. Avoided to the max, left with only the first touches from Abnett in the opening of the series, what was obviously a basis to build upon, not leave as is. That's quite crazy how he's been avoided. I don't know if his actions on Yarant will be expanded or not, or if he'll be shown rampaging with the rest of the First Company in the Inner Palace (personal theory : Abaddon vs Valdor which I suppose would be a suitable mirror of the duel between the Emperor and Horus, along with a great clash), but the one scene that needs to happen, since it's a pivotal point in the setting, is his discovery of Horus' body.

 

I'd even be perfectly fine to have the big duel not being depicted and only be shown through Dorn picking up the Emperor and Abaddon finding Horus dead, ripping the Talon off his armor and going on a rampage aboard the Vengeful Spirit.

 

@Slan Drakkos

Abaddon didn't participate in the Scouring, and most of the Sons of Horus either afaik.

 

 

So who is left as things are right now that Sigismund is likely to duel with? I'm guessing there will be some new traitor perspectives, but who is most likely to show up that has had some screen time in the series so far? I've lost track of everyone a bit.

Little Horus ? Lucius the Jobber ? Many new faces ?

[Chapter Master Valrak]

 

 

I think Sigismund is likely to show up in more than a single Siege novel for many reasons, but I'd love to do exactly that. It'd be nice to have a crack at that in the final mix.

 

 

I want a story on how Siggy and Fafnir are bffs, have we ever had a greater friendship...I think not.

[Roomsky]

I would like a pile of books that doesn't pretend to be a series, but does have the unifying theme of the Emperor's dream crumbling to dust before the eyes of his sons. I would like to see The Scouring made a setting from the get-go, and it should be the metaphorical passing of the torch from the remaining primarchs to their legions/chapters. Preferably all this happens in a rigid non-primarch point of view based novels that shows us how each legion, each successor chapter, and each non-astartes arm of the Imperium sees it's burgeoning rot, and to hammer home humanity's new-found distrust of astartes.

 

I would especially like it if it isn't piled high with wink-wink nudge-nudge allusions to Gathering Storm and beyond, as to be a non-backhanded passing of the torch to the galaxy's more mortal players. If Guilliman's (and potentially more) are going to return, make it an actual hope spot rather than a foregone conclusion.

 

Hopefully I can get a nice collection going on my shelf that covers all the key events, from The Lion, Russ, Guilliman, and Corax arriving too late all the way up to Guilliman getting Snek'd, preferably from Thiel's point of view. The last point is a purely selfish one, as I'd like Guilliman's internment in a time period I actually collect.

 

Also the Lion has gotten a surprising amount of screen time for someone whose arc concludes in the Scouring. Don't blue-ball me BL.

[b1soul]

@ bluntblade, mc warhammer

 

Yeah...like they spot each other from some distance and maybe exchange shouted words but can't get through the press of battle to strike at each other...in the process, they cut down a few lesser warriors in their way

 

EDIT: Them not even seeing each other would be fine as well, but I feel some dramatic eye contact wouldn't be gratuitous

[Boldthreat]

I want to see the transformation of Dorn in a post-emperor setting. As a kid I loved the Imperial Fists as portrayed in their index Astartes article and Dorn's story post Heresy in particular really made me fall in love with this Chapter.

 

Dorn is going to be devastated and completely inconsolable post Heresy. He breaks his sword over his knee in a sign of failure. He paints his armor black in a symbol of mourning and goes on a vengeance crusade and completely loses himself in that endeavor. He doesn't care what's going on back on Terra. His mental dam broke, and all his held in rage and hatred is left unchecked. It consumes him. How does this affect Rann, Sigismund and Polux?

 

Then you have his relationship with Guilliman once he is recalled to Terra. The IA makes that out to be an intense conversation... One that almost leads to another civil war. What if there is more to it than the Terrible Angel incident? I'd love to see that fleshed out and the politics of this era.

 

It's funny, Dorn is 100 percent loyal to the Emperor and his Imperial Truth. But in many ways I get a heavily religious vibe about him. Never mind the crusader motif, I get that. But look at his arc post Heresy: fall from grace (death of Emperor), all consuming greif and hatred (crusade of vengeance, political turmoil), enlightenment through pain (pain glove and communion with the Emperor that is), baptism in fire (Iron Cage), born again (acceptance of codex and the splitting of legion), Salvation (death in sacrifice for betterment of Imperium).

 

What if it's Dorn that starts the deification of the Emperor? What if it's Dorn who initiates the Creed Lorgar never could. How ironic would that be. The most loyal son, in his mental breakdown, creates the world the father never wanted.

 

All my own opinion though. I've been wanting to read this story since I was 12. I'm 33 now lol. I'm probably completely wrong, but I'm ready for the ride! What a time to be a fan of this universe.

[Son of Carnelian]

 

Well the first years of Black Templars would be nice. How they ended up with no librarians, how Sigismund modes them to his image and how they started worshipping the Emperor.

Also old school purging obviously.

Give us Straight Arrow Sigismund ADB, you gave us his death, now give us his life.

 

I think Sigismund is likely to show up in more than a single Siege novel for many reasons, but I'd love to do exactly that. It'd be nice to have a crack at that in the final mix.

 

All apologies AD-B, but I would vote for Sigismund's post-Heresy arc to exist as its own series. He and the Templars are certainly interesting enough to carry that and the Black Legion series proves that sort of deep dive into a single character/army can work. 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

That's why Yarant is going to be some much needed fleshing out. Abaddon vs. Russ.

Abaddon vs Russ?

Russ was a broken meat sack being carried around by his Jarls, unable to even stand after his fight with Horus. Abaddon had command of an extermination, not a war against Russ.

 

If Abaddon faced Russ in any other condition thered be a different lord of the black legion.

[Rob P]

I'm sure i'd read a Sigismund scouring novel, but it's not something i'm actively after. I reckon he'll get a great showing in the Siege and, although i've not read it, it sounds like he gets the same in the 2nd Black Legion novel.

 

I don't need his life story when there are loads of other stories to tell about others.

[bluntblade]

 

That's why Yarant is going to be some much needed fleshing out. Abaddon vs. Russ.

Abaddon vs Russ?

Russ was a broken meat sack being carried around by his Jarls, unable to even stand after his fight with Horus. Abaddon had command of an extermination, not a war against Russ.

 

If Abaddon faced Russ in any other condition thered be a different lord of the black legion.

Abaddon Vs the Jarls, then

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Personally I think Yarant has been covered in sufficient detail, and the All-Father knows the Wolves dont need another story with them getting ganked and saved by an outside source.

That's nearly every wolf heresy story, so far

[DukeLeto69]

I want to see the transformation of Dorn in a post-emperor setting. As a kid I loved the Imperial Fists as portrayed in their index Astartes article and Dorn's story post Heresy in particular really made me fall in love with this Chapter.

Dorn is going to be devastated and completely inconsolable post Heresy. He breaks his sword over his knee in a sign of failure. He paints his armor black in a symbol of mourning and goes on a vengeance crusade and completely loses himself in that endeavor. He doesn't care what's going on back on Terra. His mental dam broke, and all his held in rage and hatred is left unchecked. It consumes him. How does this affect Rann, Sigismund and Polux?

Then you have his relationship with Guilliman once he is recalled to Terra. The IA makes that out to be an intense conversation... One that almost leads to another civil war. What if there is more to it than the Terrible Angel incident? I'd love to see that fleshed out and the politics of this era.

It's funny, Dorn is 100 percent loyal to the Emperor and his Imperial Truth. But in many ways I get a heavily religious vibe about him. Never mind the crusader motif, I get that. But look at his arc post Heresy: fall from grace (death of Emperor), all consuming greif and hatred (crusade of vengeance, political turmoil), enlightenment through pain (pain glove and communion with the Emperor that is), baptism in fire (Iron Cage), born again (acceptance of codex and the splitting of legion), Salvation (death in sacrifice for betterment of Imperium).

What if it's Dorn that starts the deification of the Emperor? What if it's Dorn who initiates the Creed Lorgar never could. How ironic would that be. The most loyal son, in his mental breakdown, creates the world the father never wanted.

All my own opinion though. I've been wanting to read this story since I was 12. I'm 33 now lol. I'm probably completely wrong, but I'm ready for the ride! What a time to be a fan of this universe.

I really like this concept and the irony around Dorn fostering the worship of the Emp. Clearly some of his boys went that way... Sigi and the BT... So why not!

 

All this talk of Sig and Abaddon meeting at the siege, well hasn't ADB already covered this (sort of) with Black Legion and what goes down tthere?

[Marshal Rohr]

If anything, they need to reverse course on the Templars worshipping the Emperor, not double down on it.

[Robbienw]

I want to see a Fall of Caliban book, but also an book about the aftermath as the Dark Angels re-organise and setup the hunt for the fallen.

[Slan Drakkos]

Personally I think Yarant has been covered in sufficient detail, and the All-Father knows the Wolves dont need another story with them getting ganked and saved by an outside source.

That's nearly every wolf heresy story, so far

seeing the wolves get wrecked is one of the many things that I've come to enjoy from BL, if for no other reason than that I can make fun of my friend everytime they get beaten on.

[Marshal Rohr]

Personally I think Yarant has been covered in sufficient detail, and the All-Father knows the Wolves dont need another story with them getting ganked and saved by an outside source.

That's nearly every wolf heresy story, so far

I was referring to the Black Book covering it. The Wolves have a lot of wins they could cover in those, like Vanaheim.