What if... all Imperial Vehicles?

[Xisor]

Greetings, Fabricators,

 

I've long been of the notion that, at least in narrative play, I'd be keen to use any old ostensibly Imperial (or even: human/STC-derived) vehicle as a vehicle for my Mechanicus forces.

 

For myself: this is daydreaming about Goliath/Rockgrinder trucks and drop-pods and Vindicators and Deathstrikes. I've also been musing about 'tidying up' the Dark Imperium Blight Drone, and the DG Crawler to make Imperial versions. Exorcised/pre-summoning maulfiends (etc), perhaps.

 

Assuming it was, more or less, a 'like for like' - e.g. "Mechanicus can now field Baneblades!" (and assuming reasonable costs), how would access to all that change your play style? Or affect what you bought next?

 

In terms of doing it all, the obvious steps would be switching things like keywords, and ditching faction-unique rules (and tweaking costs/PL, of course).

 

But on the secondary level, you'd also have things like adding little Mechanicus twists, the most obvious being 'Canticles'.

 

We have an irritating precedent, in the form of the Terrax Assault Drill, with it not gaining Canticles, but in a 'fan supplement' sort of style, what sort of thing would you expect or want to see?

 

Anything that should be uniquely forbidden? Just absolutely left alone!?

 

I'm keen other people's views as to why they think it's not necessarily a Good Idea! ("Self-awareness or social insight isn't a strength of mine," he typed onto an obscure internet sub-forum. ), what are your thoughts on this sort of endeavour?

 

Or, indeed, do you know of anything like this that's been done before? Obvious pitfalls?

 

Cheers m'dears.

[Charlo]

So, really - as long as you stick to one faction per detachment not a lot to stop you doing this as is. Enginseers can already repair AM tanks and Cawl can repair everything IMPERIUM.

 

It'd be a bit powerful to get direct integration with Ad Mech though and really, give us too many choices. Plus, personally I'd prefer to have our own unique flavour of vehicle rather than "Here is all the other tanks people get"

[Magos Takatus]

I think Rhino pattern vehicles and Leman Russ and their variants would be obvious choices since they seem easy to operate. I would expect Skitarii to adjust to their use fairly easily so having access to those vehicles should be expected.

 

The part of me that wants to fill in holes in our list rather than just simply take sensible choices would be keen to have the Corvus Blackstar, since it looks to me like a nice flyer compared to the Chibi Thunderhawk that is the Stormraven. :p

 

I'm not sure what should be explicitly off-limits to the Adeptus Mechanicus really. Equipment used by the Grey Knights would probably be too rare and too secret to be used for the Mechanicus' ends and Adepta Sororitas are probably a bit niche to see much use. (saying that, servitor-operated Penitent Engines would fill in for any number of Mechanicus-built combat servitors, as would Arco-Flagellants).

 

These are just my first impressions on the issue, I might have missed out some points.

[Charlo]

I think one of the main counter points to some of this is why would the Ad Mech the inferior vehicles that they produce dime-a-dozen for the rest of the Imperium when they can use the juicy stuff they keep for themselves instead ;)

[MajorNese]

I think one of the main counter points to some of this is why would the Ad Mech the inferior vehicles that they produce dime-a-dozen for the rest of the Imperium when they can use the juicy stuff they keep for themselves instead

That depends...skitarii are obviously human-sized and rather expendable, using effective but easy-to-produce guard tanks seems reasonable. Use the best versions they can build, but still mass-produced. Like in the Baneblade novel, the good old Mars-produced baneblade was just better than other versions. Like comparing newer cars to older ones - the newer ones do essentially the same, but take less fuel, have more features etc.

 

Astartes vehicles seem off to me. The design principle seems too different to seamlessly integrate, compared to guard tanks that won't look off next to an onager. Considering that IG superheavies integrate seamlessly (and are easy to repair), using those opens up a lot of possibilities. Currently I stock up on tech thralls as guardsmen, to make it a full detachment.

[Stray]

I think Charlo has the right of it...

 

Think about it. The Mechanicum aren't a group of mechanics and vehicle collectors, they are a religious order that see's technology as sacred - this is going to factor in massively as to what machinery they choose to operate themselves. They aren't going to be interested in Leman Russ Tanks, not when the Cult Mechanicus prescribes the deployment of the Onager Dunecrawler pattern.

 

Could they use other equipment? Of course they could! They build and maintain the majority of technology in the Imperium and their head sits on the council of the High Lords of Terra. They could have access to anything they wish, no doubt.

 

They choose not to. Just like some religions choose not to eat pork

[Vash113]

Honestly I would be interested in and approve of GW giving more factions the option to turn a small selection of Imperial Guard units like the Genestealer Cults can, replete with a small blister of conversion parts to "faction" up a squad of Cadians. For the Mechanicus this could be a set of ten heads with cog-marked helmets and rebreathers, an auspex arm, and a taser goad and this could represent the most basic of the Tech Guard or Tech Thralls used to defend Forge Worlds. While in the fluff the Skitarii are the standing professional army that defends the Forge Worlds many do also maintain large guard equivalent pseudo PDF forces of armed and minimally trained forge thralls, recruited from the worker population who are not blessed with augmetics or induction into the machine-cult proper but are servants of the Forge World and they number in the tens of millions while the standing army of Skitarii on a particular forge world might only number a few tens of thousands. Apart from basic Infantry Squads the Mechanicus could also get a basic selection of Sentinels, Leman Russ and Chimera-chassis vehicles.

Similarly an upgrade kit for Shrine Guard, the PDF of Cardinal worlds who could be allies to the Inquisition or Ecclessiarchy, with a set of kettle helmets and a hand flamer upgrade for the sergeant. Or maybe specifc Inquisitorial Shock Troopers, with blank faced enforcer helmets and a melta pistol or power sword. Heck while some would consider it heresy there could even be a chapter serf upgrade kit to represent the armsmen serving Space Marine chapters with alternate helmets and a custom bolter for the sergeant.

This could help provide more synergy between different Imperial factions when allied with the Imperial Guard, help better justify Imperial Soup and make it something that isn't just an exploit but that actually makes some sense in representing a combined-arms force.

 

EDIT:

How could I forget Imperial Knights, household guard? Some medieval pot style helmets and an ornate power sword or fist weapon for officers!

[Magos Takatus]

I like the idea of the Mechanicus PDF force using guard parts. Perhaps they could get upgrade sprues to make the old variant tech guard Chimera turrets as well? Sticking something similar to the Taurox battle cannon on a Chimera would be pretty nice.

[walter h]

I agree with Vash, the workers of these forgeworlds would be less skitarii like,and be extremely available.

[Ishagu]

I really hope the various FW units and vehicles get 40k rules soon. Some amazing stuff there!

[Vash113]

I really hope the various FW units and vehicles get 40k rules soon. Some amazing stuff there!

 

IIRC Mechanicus stuff including the robots were supposed to come in Fires of Cyraxis but that has been delayed, again. I really wish FW would get it's act together, it's been several years now since they lost some critical staff, I sympathize with their loss but this is a bit ridiculous now.

 

At the very least it would be nice if they released trial data-sheets for some Mechanicus units to tide players over until the books finally come out in like 2022 or something.

[Ishagu]

Yeah FW are hitting rock bottom. They are so slow to adjust at the moment. Bringing the rules for these units to 8th is guaranteed money yet they are unable to do so.

[Magos Takatus]

I have to agree. We have been patient to see 40k rules but it's getting beyond a joke. I really don't want to see the Mechanicus range go out of production before we get the chance to field some of those forces outside of 30k. There are differences between the Mechanicum and the Adeptus Mechanicus, but likewise there are differences between space marine legions and chapters but they are able to field relic models no problem. 

[MajorNese]

Concerning FW rules:

The problem is a too high workload, supporting too many systems at once.

The entire specialist games range popped up in a very short time, and is done by FW staff. Heresy became its own system. 40k required a complete rules overhaul with 8th edition. LotR got new stuff. AoS...exists, AFAIK.

 

Cyraxus started as a pet project by one employee, but the entire fluff doesn't work anymore with the story development of 8th edition, needing a lot of extra work that wasn't intended. Understandable they need to push it back, as everyone is busy. As a (software) developer I know this problem from the other side - every customer is demanding immediate attention, but when every programmer is busy, there is simply no one left to do it.

 

I spoke to pretty much every GW/FW employee at Warhammer Fest. Rules, designers, FW guys...they all know we need more model diversity, first of all a transport. It's not that they haven't been listening. If my memory is correct, one of them stated that AdMech is a range that will be expanded over time, and there is so much untapped potential left to do. It won't happen overnight, but we won't be left alone with the handful of kits we have. Until then, I'll explore the conversion potential of IG rules, which might take a while...

[Tiger9gamer]

in 7th edition I managed to play a few games of unbound skitarii armies in rhinos and honestly it was some of the best fun I had (until the FAQ said I could not start in allied vehicles... why not just limit it to drop pods? I know skitarii in drop pods was the major cheese of the time, and we all know it's because we just want a fudging DT that doesn't cost an arm and a leg IRL) the skitarii synergized really well in a fast moving rhino, and made it so we didnt die in a storm of assault cannons and heavy bolters as we tried to make it up field. it was tactically sound, using stronger steel to protect squishy flesh!

 

but in 8th? Well, I have no clue. we can no longer get out and move after the vehicle moved, so we cannot get that speed boost when we get out of the tank. it cuts down on the flexibility and makes it so we have to meticulously plan the advance in a way that can go ary really easily. without being able move first that can leave some truck jams where everyone is trying to get out of the car at the same time, and can be countered without a lot of thought by just moving opposing models closer to block that 3" bubble we gotta deploy in. it would slow the game down a bit more than what i'm used to i'm afraid. plus, it opens up the cheese that is the transport assault to us, and I hate that function of the game enough as it is.

[Vash113]

I've been doing some more thinking about making Guard more accessible to other Imperium factions and I had a few ideas.

So for Mechanicus Guard I think an alternate head with a cog mechanicus marked helmet and rebreathers, a plasma gun and plasma pistol and maybe a taser goad would be great to admech up a squad of ten guardsmen. Then for rules I'd do this: 

An Adeptus Mechanicus Detachment can include the following units from Codex: Astra Militarum: Infantry Squad, Armored Sentinel Squadron, Scout Sentinel Squadron, Leman Russ (all variants) and Chimera. All Astra Militarum units chosen in an Adeptus Mechanicus Detachment lose the Regiment Keyword and instead gain the Forge World keyword. They also gain the special rule: "Blessings of the Machine Spirit: While within 6" of a friendly Tech Priest, any time a plasma weapon in the unit overloads roll a D6, on a 4+ the overload result is ignored and the model is not removed as a casualty." And modify that for the Sentinels and Russ respectively but so long as a unit is near a Tech Priest it has some protection from plasma overloads, giving a notable design direction for the allied guard, maximizing the plasma weapons on offer, very fluffy for the defenders of a Forge World, and giving them synergy with the AdMech forces.

For Imperial Knights I'd do a kit with helmets either similar to the pilot or more medieval looking and a power sword or something for the officer, give them the same unit selections as the AdMech, except maybe fewer Leman Russ options and maybe add Conscripts, and they lose the Regiment keyword and gain the Household Keyword. Then for a special rule they would gain this: "Servants of the Code: So long as the unit is within 6" of a friendly Household Titanic unit, the squad cannot lose more than a single model to a morale test, Conscript squads instead cannot lose more than D3 models." This would give allied household guard some staying power in the morale phase and a reason to stay in proximity to a Knight.

What do you guys think? Is that the kind of thing you'd like to see?

[Xisor]

I like it, Vash. I like that style a lot. I'd considered the other direction too - a 'less well equipped', less elite Adeptus Mechanicus force.

 

E.g. A Mechanicus force, but stripped back of a lot of the more explicitly fun stuff (robots, onagers, Kataphrons, fulgurites) - Skitarii go to BS4+ and - 1Ld. Lose Skitarii keyword, gain guard officer order stuff, but orders are just 1CP to issue any two in serial, don't need an originating officer.

 

Galvanic rifles/TUA become stub rifles and arquebus, rad carbines become autocarbines, cognis becomes normal, heavy and normal phosphor blasters become heavy stubbers, Kataphrons become Praeton Servitors (5+ WS/BS but gain Mindlock, 4+ armour, may take a combination of plasma culverin/arc rifle, hydraulic claws/flamers/stubbers), and otherwise get access to IG Vehicles.

 

----

 

But I'm not convinced. I think the 'here's some credible, restrained fan datasheets' for some units makes sense, especially in terms of not-so-official Matched Play or less.

 

Elite/Marine - > Skitarii/Cybernetica

E.g. Land Raider, Land Speeder, fancy gunships, Rhino chassis stuff. Unmarined Dreadnought equipment/profile as variant robots? Stormravens can carry a pair of Kastellan?

 

Guard/boring - > Cult Mechanicus

Baneblade auto-shrines? Goliath trucks as a way to shift Kataphrons a bit quicker?

 

Or maybe reverse that? Elite for the Cult, mass produced (but generously provisioned) for the Skitarii?

 

Flicking through things, had anyone tried messing about with the base/tracks of a Lord of Skulls to see how it looks as a Land Train/Triaros?

 

Expensive, but plastic is easier to work with...

[MajorNese]

Guard may not have as many special rules, but converting IG vehicles to look the part has never been a problem, as long as it's clear what each unit/wargear should represent.

 

Considering some magos' armies in the fluff, the rules are fittingly enough. As much as techpriests are attached to dogma, they are detached from emotional and social "rules". Efficiency overrules a lot of otherwise "human" aspects, which does fit with the utterly expendable IG elements. Protecting revered/valuable technology by using expendable assets as meatshield does have a lot of tradition.

 

For example the "skitarii" in the Word Bearers trilogy were few elite units (balisterarii, praetorians) shielded by extremely expendable thrall armies. Thralls were produced in mobile factories behind the front lines by implanting stored criminals with control chips/optics, replacing an arm with a lasgun, and commanding them to mindlessly march into certain death. After each battle, the techpriests salvaged what was still intact, and created new troops/vehicles with it.

 

Which is why the Mechanicum in 30k was in some interviews compared to necromancers - few overlords commanding mindless armies, mechanically resurrecting the remains of friend and foe, warmachine and organism, to increase their army. Thralls have some really fluffy upgrades, like Revenant Alchemy - resurrecting dead thralls, giving FnP and Fearless, but unable to give overwatch or advance. Mindless, deathless hordes. Certainly an interesting army project.

 

Baneblade auto-shrines?

*cough*

[Marshal Reinhard]

Are those Taurox baby tread sections?

 

EDIT: feels silly only asking that. Amazing work in general. Love the little changed details all over from the special gun, to special techpriest lookout to the more ornate lascannon... list goes on... still those are the baby tread sections from Taurox aren't they?

[MajorNese]

Yep, Taurox tracks. A friend replaced his with wheels anyway, so why not...

[Xisor]

Cheers, all, I've been poking away at this, and trying to hold in mind this discussion.

 

----

 

My excursions so far have led me to a few little alleys.

1- How do people feel about 'mandating' fancy stuff for this project? (E.g. sidestepping the lower-key tech guard end.)

2- I ask that, because bolt weapons are bugging me. Current phosphor weapons are almost certainly 'stub weapons with v. fancy, Mechanicus-only phosphor ammo'. I'm tempted to 'broad brush' things that way and basically make heavy bolters fall into the 'heavy phosphor blaster' category. E.g. Razorbacks with HPBs, Baneblades with HPBs in the sponsons and little mini-turrets.

3- Cognis, icarus and 'heavy phosphor' in place of stubbers/normal versions?

 

Basically, it would mean stripping out most of the 'low grade' stuff (heavy bolters/flamers) and supplanting it with what we have, but preserving the 'somewhat fancier' stuff, e.g. chem-cannons through eradicator nova cannons all the way up to volcano cannons.

 

That seems "fair", right? Again, it'd assume fair costing, but with the intent of avoiding piling on the 'boring'/pedestrian versions.

 

In other news: how do people feel gutting the centaur's torso bit off of the Lord of Skulls and turning the bottom half into a Triaros/Land Train analogue? (Minimal weapons, LoW slot, chunky transport capacity, say 16 Wounds?, and giving it Adamantium Tracks/Steel Behemoth as per Baneblades. A sort of locomotive..."Tracks? Where we're going we don't need tracks!")

[Magos Takatus]

That seems like an interesting idea. Giving Mechanicus-aligned Knights phosphor weapons instead of standard heavy stubbers would be a subtle but appropriate conversion. However, upgrading heavy bolters into heavy phosphor blasters sounds a bit more involved but would be a really interesting conversion. I am primarily looking at this from a modelling point of view rather than a gaming one but I don't think those minor upgrades here and there would break the game.

 

As for ripping a Lord of Skulls apart, I haven't tried it, but my inner mekboy really wants to make an amazing battlewagon/looted tank from it. I'm sure careful modelling could be successful to make a unique vehicle. Would the Macrocaris Explorator be a useful vehicle to base stats on considering how customized they were supposed to be?

[Xisor]

I've been swithering between Macrocarid and the simple Triaros.

 

Another one I'm itching to get my paws on is the Repulsor tank.

 

Make it look less Mekboy, more Cognis!

 

And speaking of Cognifying Imperial tanks, has anyone tried putting Kataphron torsos in normal Imperial hatches?

 

I could see one standing in on the twin assault cannon/heavy bolter slot on the front of Land Raiders. Maybe atop too!

 

But it might be a messy fit on smaller/tighter vehicles. Even on the LR/Repulsor, it might be messy...