What could Chapter Approved do?

[MARK0SIAN]

Full Melta guns (not an pistol variety) should go up in strength at half range too. S9 at half range so you’re wounding vehicles on a 3+. Then 2D3 damage at half range too.

[killersquid]

I agree with what was mentioned before. I think the rules for melta is fine, being  nearly 20pts a gun isn't. A points drop would immediately make the weapon more attractive. Especially if plasma became a touch more expensive. 

 

I'm hoping they add something to make power armored models more attractive as well. I heard rumours that'll be the case, but it'll need to be something more than a points change. Maybe some kind of new stratagem which only effects power armoured models? Who knows. 

[Ishagu]

Grav need more help. Such a cool weapon that is now almost forgotten.

[Ratherdashing]

I'll concede that 2d6 is probably too much. But melta still seems way worse than lascannons (which seem to be easier to field in large numbers than melta anyway) because lascannons get to fire every turn and meltas get to fire once: at the beginning before they die (if they deep strike) or later in the game (if they take a transport). This is, of course, after paying CP or points for that form of delivery. Lascannons need no other investment to do their d6 damage. The range is a massive difference between lascannons and meltaguns. Lascannons are point and click--reliable and dependable damage. Meltaguns have to earn taking a single shot and will likely only get one. So that shot should be considerably more effective than the free shot lascannons get. They are a one shot nuke and should impact like one. 6damage verses 2d6 might be a better compromise. But as it stands, it seems like a total waste to come up with a delivery mechanism that, if it's lucky, will knock off three wounds from a vehicle, while meanwhile a lascannon has been doing the same each turn for two turns and will do so for two more.

[Ishagu]

Meltas are Assault weapons, something that people forget. You can move and fire them without penalty or eve advance. That's factored into the price.

[Slasher956]

Meltas are Assault weapons, something that people forget. You can move and fire them without penalty or eve advance. That's factored into the price.

Melta-guns are,

combi-metlas are

MultiMeltas are Heavy 

Infernos/ melta-pistols are pistols

 

(I'm ignoring the Melta style weapons that Knights and other stuff have.....)

[Ishagu]

Yeah, but typically troops can use them effectively on the move. Las Cannons are more stationary weapons.

 

Multi Meltas tend to only be on a few units anyways, Raven being the most used, and it doesn't care about range.

[Ratherdashing]

A 48" gun rarely needs to move. Will firing on the move increase the number of turns you get to fire to match a lascannon? Especially at 6", the range we are talking about buffing?

[Ishagu]

No, but it means you can't hide or reposition effectively.

 

It's why I migrated towards to Sicaran Venator.

[Tyriks]

No, but it means you can't hide or reposition effectively.

It's why I migrated towards to Sicaran Venator.

Melta has a harder time hiding, so not a great comparison.

[Ishagu]

 

No, but it means you can't hide or reposition effectively.

It's why I migrated towards to Sicaran Venator.

Melta has a harder time hiding, so not a great comparison.

In a transport?

[Tyriks]

Then they aren't firing, so they're still doing less than a Lascannon with -1.

[Ishagu]

You're entitled to your opinion.

[Beams]

Yeah, but typically troops can use them effectively on the move. Las Cannons are more stationary weapons.

 

Multi Meltas tend to only be on a few units anyways, Raven being the most used, and it doesn't care about range.

Retributors and Devastators have multimeltas? And I know SoB BSisters troops have multimeltas option, and I thought marine troops did as well?

 

Also, Guard tanks have them as options?

 

As far as meltas being assault, yeah, it's cool you can move 6" and shoot, but since you want to be within 6" you are usually getting really close to things that you'd rather not be. And if you advance it's a -1 to hit, making guard hit on a 5+ and sisters/marinea on a 4+, meaning it's usually better not to advance, unless otherwise you wouldn't be able to shoot at all.

 

 

Meltas are not worth 17 pts in anything but a sisters army, and even then, it they had access to plasma, they would use plasma instead due to heavily increased threat range 24"+6" va 6"+12", increase in reliablity (2 shots at 2 dmg each is way more reliable than 1 shot at 2d6 drop the highest) and plasmas also have the advantage of a longer high threat range (within 12" vs within 6"). Melta does have a higher AP +-3 v -4) but that only comes into play vs 2+ saves.

 

A melta with bs 3+ at 6" averages 2.4 damage vs a t4 target and 1.9 against t7

 

A plasma with bs 3+ at 12" averages 2.1 damage vs a t4 target and 1.74 against t7. While still being more reliable, cheaper and longer range.

 

The offset is supposed to be a 1 in 6 chance to nuke a model, bt since all factions have relatively easier ways to get around this (Captains, Cannonesses, Orders, Harker, Yarrick etc) - that becomes 1 in 36, making it way less of an issue.

[Ishagu]

No doubt meltas need an adjustment, I'm just pointing out that they have a few rules that probably add to the cost.

 

I think the cost should be 14 points for a regular Melta, 15 for plasma, 12 for Grav?

[Kallas]

Meltas are Assault weapons, something that people forget. You can move and fire them without penalty or eve advance. That's factored into the price.

While I get your point, the range difference between Meltaguns/Lascannons is so massive that the Meltagun will probably be playing catch-up with the Lascannon, which will, in all likelihood, have already fired at least once, possibly twice.

 

Not to mention that the Meltagun's target can potentially move too. While angles/degrees make the Lascannon somewhat easier to hide from (terrain dependant) the Meltagun's range makes it easier to stay away from.

 

Once the Meltagun is Advancing, it's just as accurate as a moving Lascannon.

 

Regardless, I believe your position was that the non-Plasma options need to be cheaper/better in some way; so we're fundamentally all agreeing and just arguing semantics

 

I think the cost should be 14 points for a regular Melta, 15 for plasma, 12 for Grav?

Personally, I think BS3+ Melta should be 12/13. The range is a real killer, and if it's not going to improve in S/D, then it needs to be cheap enough to field in reasonable numbers. Plasma at 15 would probably be fine; Grav at 10-12, probably - again, the shorter range hurts, and the profile isn't particularly amazing with only one shot over 9". 5/-3/1orD3 is ok, but it needs to get close and against T5+ its effectiveness vs Plasma is quite bad, so it needs to be quite a big cheaper.

[Closet Skeleton]

I find all imperial weapons overcosted, don't see why any of them should be over 20 points. Plasma guns feel okay at 13 points but if they went down to 10 would it really result in Space marines even being in the top 3 factions for firepower?

 

Don't see why guard get a discount on their weapons either, what with how expensive BS3+ is.

[Ishagu]

That's what I'm very aware of. Outside of a few exceptions most Imperium weapons are over-costed, as are the units that wield them.

 

Hopefully everything gets a big drop lol

[Kallas]

I find all imperial weapons overcosted, don't see why any of them should be over 20 points. Plasma guns feel okay at 13 points but if they went down to 10 would it really result in Space marines even being in the top 3 factions for firepower?

 

Don't see why guard get a discount on their weapons either, what with how expensive BS3+ is.

That's a fair point. Maybe it'd be better to have that kind of scale, but at a lower point?

 

EG; instead of 15pt PGs/12pt Grav -> 11pt PG/8pt Grav?

[duz_]

I think grav is fine where it is

Maybe a slight price drop? But its definitely still a great option, there just isn't as much power armour around to use it! 

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I find all imperial weapons overcosted, don't see why any of them should be over 20 points. Plasma guns feel okay at 13 points but if they went down to 10 would it really result in Space marines even being in the top 3 factions for firepower?

 

Don't see why guard get a discount on their weapons either, what with how expensive BS3+ is.

That's a fair point. Maybe it'd be better to have that kind of scale, but at a lower point?

 

EG; instead of 15pt PGs/12pt Grav -> 11pt PG/8pt Grav?

 

 

I'd rather see the amount of firepower in the game go down in general and think pricing marine weapons so that they turn into a glass cannon faction would just emphasis the worst aspects of the game.

 

I'm just saying that glass cannon marines wouldn't lead to anything unseen in the current balance.

[Ishagu]

I think grav is fine where it is

Maybe a slight price drop? But its definitely still a great option, there just isn't as much power armour around to use it!

Grav sucks. Don't know how you've reached your conclusion.

[Kallas]

I'd rather see the amount of firepower in the game go down in general and think pricing marine weapons so that they turn into a glass cannon faction would just emphasis the worst aspects of the game.

 

I'm just saying that glass cannon marines wouldn't lead to anything unseen in the current balance.

Well, where do go then?

 

Marines need help. Straight up, they need some help. If points cost reductions are off the table, then what do we do to make Marines better? Their base statlines are more expensive; and their weapon options are expensive.

[Panzer]

I think grav is fine where it is

Maybe a slight price drop? But its definitely still a great option, there just isn't as much power armour around to use it! 

 

Well Plasma does the Grav job better so it's not really a great option in comparison.

[Tyriks]

 

 

 

 

I find all imperial weapons overcosted, don't see why any of them should be over 20 points. Plasma guns feel okay at 13 points but if they went down to 10 would it really result in Space marines even being in the top 3 factions for firepower?

 

Don't see why guard get a discount on their weapons either, what with how expensive BS3+ is.

That's a fair point. Maybe it'd be better to have that kind of scale, but at a lower point?

 

EG; instead of 15pt PGs/12pt Grav -> 11pt PG/8pt Grav?

I'd rather see the amount of firepower in the game go down in general and think pricing marine weapons so that they turn into a glass cannon faction would just emphasis the worst aspects of the game.

 

I'm just saying that glass cannon marines wouldn't lead to anything unseen in the current balance.

Marine guns costing less won't make them glass cannons.

 

 

I think grav is fine where it is

Maybe a slight price drop? But its definitely still a great option, there just isn't as much power armour around to use it!

Grav sucks. Don't know how you've reached your conclusion.

Yeah, grav is a mess right now.