Just what exactly was so wrong about Imperium Secundus?

[karden00]

To get it out of the way...

"Other than it being a largely dissapointingly executed subplot"

 

Once and for all. 

You're Guilliman. The Imperium is cut off from you by the basically impenetrable Ruinstorm. As far as you know, Magnus, Vulkan, Corax, Ferrus are all dead. Horus is rising. Your realm is dealt an unprecedented blow. Your legion is bled like never before. Your fleet assets are severely reduced. 

Yet for all that, you hold what you can only assume is the largest and post potent loyal force in the galaxy. Both travel and communication with Terra and the wider Imperium is basically severed. Going to Terra is not really an option. 

 

So why on earth is consolidating Ultramar and containing the Shadow Crusade such a bad thing? No intelligence you possess indicates the Emperor is alive. Everything you do is based upon the pragmatic response to the situation around you, which you have very little input on. Given what he knew, I have to say I have not been convinced by any author as of yet as to why Guilliman's actions were something he should hide/be ashamed of. Crowning Sanguinius was a symbolic gesture of morality boosting propaganda, nothing more. 

 

I just don't get it. 

[SpecialIssue]

Because even in the Great Crusade, the Imperium had a culture that demanded absolute loyalty to the Emperor in an extreme personality cult, and which placed a large amount of importance on things like honour, duty, and lordship much like older civilisations.

 

Guillimans actions were in direct conflict with all of these values and thus needed to be hidden if he was to keep any political capital.

[Kinstryfe]

Everything Guilliman did made absolute intellectual sense, but that's the problem. The Imperium thrives on tradition and rote action, even then in many cases. So what he did was wrong because it wasn't what was expected, regardless of how sensible it was.

[N1SB]

This topic was fascinating to me when I 1st read Unremembered Empire, THEN after the Gathering Storm/starting 8th ed it took on an extra significance, so it's a great topic.  I agree with all the above, but I think the questions posed by Brother Karden himself really spotlights the issue, in a way I never quite thought of before.

 

And to be clear, this isn't facetious or I'm trying to tear down these points.  In fact, I think they make the perfect framework to explaining what maybe many of us feel:

 

 

No intelligence you possess indicates the Emperor is alive. Everything you do is based upon the pragmatic response to the situation around you, which you have very little input on. Given what he knew, I have to say I have not been convinced by any author as of yet as to why Guilliman's actions were something he should hide/be ashamed of.

 

Imma try to do a Theoretical/Practical here in the spirit of the topic.  I'll probably screw it up, but it'll be fun.

 

 

+++ Theoretical +++

 

 

It's true no intelligence Guilliman had indicated the Emperor was still alive...but neither was there any indication he was dead either.  Yeah, Ferrus Manus was killed by Fulgrim, and the entire betrayal of the Traitor Legions was shocking, but it was a huge leap in logic to say suddenly the Emperor must have already died, too.

 

What he did know was the Astronomican was down at the time...but that's almost like saying the Games Workshop website is suddenly down, Warhammer 40,000 must have died immediately.  The normal response if that happened is probably what we'd do, which is go here on B&C and ask "hey, is the GW site down for you too?"

 

The fact that he, famous for his theorycrafting, drew such a conclusion would have appeared really weird to most.  At best, it'd have been one of those judgment calls where, if you predicted a one-in-a-million-chance correctly, you were a genius, but if you were wrong, you're just an oddball.  It happened he WAS wrong that time.

 

And in retrospect, people would look at Guilliman like, "you're a real smart guy, why would you even think that?"  This isn't as bad as the following...

 

 

+++ Practical +++

 

 

Guilliman is famous for his plans, back-up plans, and back-ups for his back-ups.  And he STILL went for Imperium Secundus nearly off the bat?

 

Just off the top of my head, there were so many other things Guilliman could have focused on first, despite/because of the fog of war at the time.  He could've sent fast fleets to make contact with his loyal brethren, and if not all, just his Dauntless few: Ferrus was dead, Dorn was too far, but Russ and Sanguinius were around.

 

In fact, a small detachment of Space Wolves actually went to Ultramar for him specifically while Sanguinius would arrive later.  And he wasn't so paranoid at the time, because he set up his Astronomican-like beacon expressly to call his brothers to him.  A back-up Imperium made sense, but make sure the original fell first.

 

It's like he wanted the Imperium to fail just so he could make his back-up Imperium.  That's probably the problem many people felt.

 

 

+++ And we can relate these feelings to real life, which puts us on edge +++

 

 

I only use reality because it's the one canon we (mostly) all share, so it's a good point of reference for thinking about issues.

 

I remember my reaction was similar to Malcador the Sigilite's, who was the Imperium's manager in the Emperor's absence AND the founder of the Inquisition.

 

From a managerial point of view, I know empire builders in the office.  These are those guys who, when given a simple task, focus all their efforts in recruiting people to have their own office-enclave instead of doing the actual job.  They always put people on edge because, rightly or wrongly, they seem to be too busy building a shadow government to vie for a future promotion rather than actually achieving it with real business results by doing the work.  You may know someone like that from work and may not trust them for that reason.  I was hired by someone like that and even then I didn't trust that person (and I was right, I just kept my head down, did the job).

 

From an Inquisition point of view, I think of what a former policeman friend once told me (retired cop from California).  It's like how you're supposed to stay cool around cops?  No one stays cool around cops, it's unnatural.  So if there was a crime, and the police are questioning witnesses around the scene, they know a witness might in fact be the perpetrator.  So they'll just accuse the witness.  An innocent person would get mad, lash out, do everything you think you're not supposed to, because he's pissed that he's trying to help and the cops turn on him.  Only a guilty person would stay calm and say, "Wait, I have a perfectly good explanation..."  The only reason you have a "perfectly good explanation" is if you committed the crime, then perfected a good way to explain it to cops.

 

So imagine you're a Loyalist Legion Astartes showing up in Imperium Secundus and Guilliman greets you with, "Wait, I have a perfectly good shadow empire in place."

 

I don't think Roboute Guilliman is either a backoffice politician or had criminal intent, but someone like Malcador might've.  But my big takeaway was...

 

 

+++ This made Guilliman much more interesting to me in a really creative way +++

 

 

The Unremembered Empire didn't make Guilliman's character bad.  Instead, it made Guilliman a way better character.

 

It didn't force a character flaw just to spice up an already established character.  It turned a character's most famous strength, his organisational skills, into his greatest flaw.  He made TOO much sense.  He prepared a backup plan TOO well.  Dan Abnett isn't great with sticking to canon, but he's famous for bringing out one's true character.

 

I loved that, and the book was my favourite hidden gem in 30k.  Then when he came back after Gathering Storm and basically did the same thing in 8th, I loved it even more!  Guilliman, the great strategic analyst, the great people person, is completely unable to analyse himself and see that he is basically repeating the same mistakes.

 

Even though he traveled across the galaxy and back, Guilliman cannot escape his own nature.  Yes, it's wrong, which is what makes it so perfect.

[Panzer]

It was a bit jumping the gun and while it doesn't seem such a terrible thing to do from our point of view it is for people in the universe considering the significance of the actual Imperium of Man and the Emperor for all of humanity even before the whole galaxy went crazy and started worshipping big E as the one and only god.

[Tyriks]

Think about it in a real life government sense. If the President of the United States went missing (or even if he was actually killed) and a general decided to create a new government out of Florida or something, he could be tried for treason. Most real world governments would not be happy about that happening, and the Emperor has been shown to be very harsh, unsympathetic and unforgiving.

 

The Dark Angels are in a similar spot; they didn't actually do anything wrong, and they killed those amonst them that did, and yet they've been on a ten thousand year crusade to make sure no one finds out that they were betrayed (in a circumstance that mirrors the Heresy at large). So to accuse them of anything would accuse the Emperor and the Imperium of the same thing.

[ashc]

Great post N1SB; I think it's one of the reasons I actually really like Guilliman, he is almost too pragmatic for the 40k universe - his savant-like ability for logistics and analysis lead him to taking the approach that actually places him well outside of the norms and rigmarole of the Imperium - inquisitors would cautiously use the word radical, and at times possibly even heretical for his actions, and yet often those actions make the most sense from an outsider's point of view.

 

He's still doing it in the timeline 'now' too, even when what he sees doesn't line up with what he believes; in Dark Imperium he wields his father's sword and sees and feels its effects on the daemonic, and yet still can't buy in to the Emperor's divinity or the sheer daemonic evil of chaos; it's just not damn logical enough..

[Guest]

Didn't he also attempt to stop other Primarch from leaving?

 

If so not only did he abandon the Emperor with no evidence he was killed but also prevented other from doing what they thought was right. To me seems rather tyranical and traitorous. It's like a remote military base losing comms and going "Well *whatever country* is dead, I declare that this land belongs to me! Someone stop Jenkins from leaving to help out *whatever country*!"

[bluntblade]

But also it meant Guilliman was tied up with his own brilliant back-up plan in a way that kept him from Terra. And books do ram home the message that if Horus takes the Throneworld the game's up, you might as well smash the board.

[Ishagu]

I think Guilliman's loyalty is beyond question, however the Imperium was going through a hard time and even pragmatism can be mistaken for Heresy.

 

In 40k common sense isn't really a thing anymore so it's best to doctor it out of history lol

 

But let's not understate the fact that the ruinstorm cut off the Adtronomicon AND warp travel, and that it took the might of 3 Legions to break through and eventually head to Terra.

[Indefragable]

You're Guilliman

 

Well there's yer problem!

 

He gave up on the Emperor, Terra, and the Imperium too easily, no matter that his intentions may have been pure and his options limited.

 

From a novel standpoint I wasn’t a fan because the stories themselves were kind of long winded and a bit too ‘perfect for plot sake’.

Bolded for emphasis.

 

 

<snip>

 

Great post. Pretty much everything he said.

 

****

Ok, ok, I'm kinda joking with my  first comment up there, and let's put all meta influences/out-of-universe perspectives/Spiritual Liege/GW-poster-boy stuff aside, here's the deal:

 

Basic military practice is to always seek communication/orders from above. That is always the highest priority. And if after all possible attempts at that fail, in the absence of any other information, you advance. When in doubt, take the fight to the enemy.

 

What does Guilliman do? The exact opposite. Not only does he seem* to give up attempts at communication relatively easily, but he does the absolute polar opposite of advance: he holes up and consolidates.** Not only that, but as others have pointed out, he somehow leaps to the conclusion that his only option is to go straight to plan Z which again as others have pointed out, really makes you scratch your head, especially since the evidence supporting the need for plan Z is the absence of any evidence. Strange course of action, anyway you cut it, no matter who chooses that course of action.

 

And there's the biggest rub and the "not joking" part of my early dig about "You're Guilliman." The fanbase gives Guilliman a lot of crap for being Guilliman for any reason you want to pick. Fair or unfair, who knows. However, in this case, I think any defense of Guilliman is going the opposite direction and trying to bend over backward to justify a just plain strange course of action simply because he's Guilliman. Picture any other Primarch doing what Guilliman did. What would the response be? Don't answer that...

 

...because we have examples.

 

A. Lion El'Jonson: one of the most loner profiles out there, prone to doing whatever he wants opinions-be-damned and also one to build pocket empires (see Wolf King). What does he do when he's in a pretty similar situation to Guilliman? Advance. He hunts down the enemy wherever and whenever possible and goes all-in on "all offense, all the time." Textbook response in a military situation such as this. He seeks to positively impact the war effort as much as possible no matter where he is in the conflict. And the Lion is the one who gets the "closet Traitor" label slapped on him....

 

B. Leman Russ: Again, like the Lion, a dude known for not caring what others think and prone to independent streaks that some would consider verging on rebellion. Yet, despite the continual pummeling his legion takes, Russ goes full-speed ahead to reach Terra and aid the primary efforts in whatever way he can.

 

C. Jaghatai Khan: and finally we have the best example of why Guilliman's actions are so head scratching. Flighty, aloof, I-think-I-was-adopted Khan. He who kinda wants nothing to do with the Imperium he has sworn to protect. He who is happy being sent off to a corner of the galaxy away from everyone else so that no one bothers him. He who was probably the most likely possibly candidate for sitting out the entire Horus Heresy so that he keep his total independence....

...what does the Khan do when he can't get a straight answer about what is going on?

 

He seeks answer. He risks rebellion (firing on the then-unknown-to-be-traitors Alpha Legion) to get his own answers so that he can make up his own mind. He thrashes his legion first in the attempt to get an answer and then to get back to the throneworld at-all-costs once he has his answer. Of all the Legions (save the Raven Guard) his was best equipped to fight in the margins, spreading out the foe, harassing them as much as possible or distracting them to a private fiefdom. But even the Khan does everything he possibly can to get back to Terra.

 

"Yea, well, but like, the Ruinstorm, man! It was like, really tough to bypass!"

 

Please see the opening chapters of Ruinstorm. What do the I, IX, and XIII Legions do once they know Terra still stands? They find a way through the storm. They commit the resources and will to find a way through no matter what. Why didn't that happen in place of Imperium Secundus?

 

Now, if it were a case of Guilliman consolidating his positions because elements of the Shadow Crusade are still going on while we attempt to connect with Terra at all costs.... and I found this nifty beacon so any loyal servants of the Imperium still left can come stay at my place for a bit so we're all safer in force while we attempt to connect with Terra at all costs then I think Gulliman's actions would be more justifiable. Heck, he could even have stuck up a sign that says "What's left of the Imperium. Vacancy" then it would make sense. But to so swiftly leap to the conclusion that he does with the absence of any sort of evidence to support his conclusion, not only seems out of character for the famously pragmatic*** Guilliman, but also seems like the least logical, effective, or justifiable course of action for any commander, let alone Primarch, to undertake.

 

 

*I will accept a hand-waving explanation of "look, they were really trying all things in the background, they just didn't happen on camera" because that is the most logical and likely thing to have been happening

**I will also accept a hand-waving explanation that basically says the Shadow Crusade was still ongoing and that there were significant enough Traitor forces on that side of the Ruinstorm to force any commander's hands into bunkering down and falling back to more defensible points

***Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman seems the most likely to be like "just keep trying, guys. The signal will get back up eventually."

[Ishagu]

The ruinstorm was impassable, and the Ultras definitely could not have done it alone.

 

That's a big point people are downplaying.

[Panzer]

Also if they had passed it without knowing whether Terra still stands they would risk wasting a LOT of ressources for nothing. If they'd learn Terra has fallen after using up all those ressources to pass the storm the IoM would've been screwed. So the best thing to do without knowing anything about Terras fate was to either wait or to prepare for the worst possible outcome.

[Ishagu]

Saying the most important thing is to establish communication is utter rubbish also.

 

When stranded or in imminent danger survival comes first. Once you're in a position to act further then you can establish communications if possible.

[Scammel]

The problem was that there was nothing wrong with it. It was a benign, prosperous beacon of humanity, divorced from the Emperor's terrifying utilitarian vision. Horus and pals only found the strength to resist by throwing in their lot with the Ruinous Powers, but Guilliman almost stumbled upon the worst heresy of all - the notion that humanity needs neither the Emperor's enlightened tyranny nor the turbulent freedom of Chaos to survive. 

 

I don't think Oll's going to Terra to stop Horus - I think he's going to try to stop both of them. In fact, I'd even wager that he played a role in the Emperor's initial disappearance.

[karden00]

Thanks for all the great posts, and thank you Ishagu for saying what I clearly did not make clear enough:

 

The ruinstorm was impassable, and the Ultras definitely could not have done it alone.

That's a big point people are downplaying.

 

Even if we consider events before Betrayer and the unleashing of the Ruinstorm, the Calth Atrocity mauled the Ultramarines naval resources, and it would have made very little tactical sense to embark upon a galaxy wide journey with a fraction of your legion/fleet. 

 

I just don't buy this idea that the loyal thing to do was to rush off to Terra as soon as was literally possible. 

 

I also don't buy the idea that by staying in Greater Ultramar he was favouring his backup plan at the expense of aiding the wider Imperium. He had no way of actually getting beyond his borders. 

 

There's been a lot of ideas about how 'it was a bad idea because it was a good idea,' which is a paraphrase of the wildest order, but I ask any good fraters who are raising this point, is this your own explanation (which I do find valid, by the way) or has this been explicitly stated within the published works? My whole gripe with the guilt of IS is that so far I havent read anything that convinced me that what Guilliman did was in any way wrong, given his context. 

[Guest]

Thanks for all the great posts, and thank you Ishagu for saying what I clearly did not make clear enough:

 

The ruinstorm was impassable, and the Ultras definitely could not have done it alone.

 

That's a big point people are downplaying.

 

Even if we consider events before Betrayer and the unleashing of the Ruinstorm, the Calth Atrocity mauled the Ultramarines naval resources, and it would have made very little tactical sense to embark upon a galaxy wide journey with a fraction of your legion/fleet. 

 

I just don't buy this idea that the loyal thing to do was to rush off to Terra as soon as was literally possible. 

 

I also don't buy the idea that by staying in Greater Ultramar he was favouring his backup plan at the expense of aiding the wider Imperium. He had no way of actually getting beyond his borders. 

 

There's been a lot of ideas about how 'it was a bad idea because it was a good idea,' which is a paraphrase of the wildest order, but I ask any good fraters who are raising this point, is this your own explanation (which I do find valid, by the way) or has this been explicitly stated within the published works? My whole gripe with the guilt of IS is that so far I havent read anything that convinced me that what Guilliman did was in any way wrong, given his context. 

 

 

As with most things, people actions/thoughts/ideas are controversial. I am going to fall back on what my military training has taught me and that is to "return to main base at all expense." However what if main base is gone and we are going into a trap? This is a very realistic scenario. Guilliman made a call and stuck to it, nothing wrong with that in his mind. Others made a call to go to Terra, nothing wrong with that in their mind. My main issue is when he stops other primarchs (his equals) from going and acts like he is in charge. This, along with other suspicions he was building his own empire, makes it appear as if he making his move to do so.

 

Hindsight is 20/20 and Guilliman was wrong in this instance. However in a parallel universe he was right. 

[Panzer]

“Jeez, this fog is terrible, I can’t see a damn thing. I know my capital ship is out there somewhere under duress but let’s stay right where we’re at and see what happens.”

 

- Commodore Robert Gillman, c. 1798 excerpt provided as evidence at Admiralty dereliction of duty board

 

But it was more like a raging storm of the highest magnitude and not simple fog and he didn't know his capital ship is out there somewhere, it could've been gone already for all he know, making the travel through said storm a waste of ressources (ressources including the life of people btw). 

[Ishagu]

Trying to move through the ruinstorm meant your crew went insane, you were attacked by Daemons, your geller field failed or you never came out of the Warp at all.

 

I think the critics haven't actually read the novels. It wasn't like flying through a fog. It was like a guiding kite through a Hurricane. Every small jump reduced the fleet in size, ships torn apart or destroyed from the inside.

[Guest]

Trying to move through the ruinstorm meant your crew went insane, you were attacked by Daemons, your geller field failed or you never came out of the Warp at all.

I think the critics haven't actually read the novels. It wasn't like flying through a fog. It was like a guiding kite through a Hurricane. Every small jump reduced the fleet in size, ships torn apart or destroyed from the inside.

And yet every small battle for the other legions on the other side of the ruinstorm trying to get to Terra reduced their numbers. It's war, everything is reducing their numbers and supplies.

 

Thing is that Guilliman wasn't saying "is there another way? Let's prep to go once there is an opening" it was "Terra is lost".

[Panzer]

Of course ultra fans are going to approve of his actions so in the end, it’s all matter of perspective.

 

I don't feel like this is a fair thing to say. Ultramarines are one of my least favourite chapter/legions and I still approve of what he did there.

[Guest]

 

 

Of course ultra fans are going to approve of his actions so in the end, it’s all matter of perspective.

I don't feel like this is a fair thing to say. Ultramarines are one of my least favourite chapter/legions and I still approve of what he did there.

Fair enough. Ultramarines and RG are on my mt Rushmore of chapters and primarchs and I still disapprove, so it was a flawed statement by me.

 

I still think his reasons wouldn’t stand up under review by superiors, and they run me the wrong way even as a fan. It’s probably just my background influencing my opinion more than anything.

 

All this said, it’s probably a good thing that there are two equally strong arguments to be made for each side. It means the writers created an effective narrative that has both pros and cons and any right answer most likely lies somewhere in the middle.

 

 

 

the right answer is the one you can only tell by looking at it from the future. Guilliman could have been right or wrong, we know he is wrong because we stand in the future. The author did a good job to make an already established fact (Terra stands) a debatable issue whether Guilliman should have gone or not.

[Marshal Rohr]

Here is a map of passable Warp Routes, per Forge World and Black Library one year after the Imperium Secundus was declared. The Ruinstorm was not impassable, it was just difficult, so lets just end that line of excuse once and for all. Guilliman could've sent a ship to Terra to see what was going on, and we know that because warbands of blackshields and shattered legions able to travel to Terra/Segmentum Solar from the Galactic North during those years as well. Guilliman made the choice to hold in place until he was contacted by someone outside of the Ultramar, which is an entirely valid military strategy. We don't need to engage in fanboi mental gymnastics to make excuses for Guilliman choosing the lesser of two evils in an apocalyptic crisis.

[Ishagu]

Well, the novel Ruinstorm paints a very different picture.

[Marshal Rohr]

That is irrelevant. The fact remains travel was difficult but entirely possible and this was demonstrated in literally dozens of books of ships moving around during the storm.