Just what exactly was so wrong about Imperium Secundus?

[Ishagu]

Actually the novel says it's impossible. It was only achieved at great cost and with Xenos help.

[Marshal Rohr]

Wonder why they made that map then.

[Tyriks]

Actually the novel says it's impossible. It was only achieved at great cost and with Xenos help.

The fact that it was achieved means it wasn't impossible, regardless of cost or help. Seems like Marshal Rohr has the right of it here.

[The Unseen]

Guilliman THOUGHT it was impossible. Cause I'm pretty sure he tried to send scout ships, and they didn't come back. It clearly wasn't actually impossible, but for everyone of those ships that made it through the Ruinstorm to Terra, I wonder how many others died, lost forever to the tides of the warp? Was Secundus the right call? No. But was it a reasonable one? Sorta. But the Imperium, even the nicer one in the 31st millennia, isn't a place where "reasonable" decisions are the correct choices most times.

[Ishagu]

You guys gotta read the novel. I don't want to spoil anything. It was impossible for the Ultras to cross by themselves.

[Marshal Rohr]

I’ve read the novel, and the black books where it talks about people traveling through the storm.

[Ishagu]

Maybe some randoms could get through. The dark gods specifically targeted the Primarch. You recall the detour and things they had to get through? The impression I got from the story is that the only one with half a chance was the Lion.

[Captain Idaho]

People keep saying it was wrong and Guilliman was complicit in Heresy yadda yadda but what about the Lion and Sanguinius? They were complicit in the whole scheme. So was it still Guilliman's fault and empire building when Sanguinius was the Emperor?

 

I mean, come on! Guilliman and his brothers are loyal and were stranded on the other side of the Ruinstorm. Such was its difficulty in crossing (the loss in ships etc) and communication lost with Terra, that strategically speaking it's obvious why 3 loyal Primarchs chose to make a stand in Ultramar to oppose Horus. They thought Terra lost already.

[karden00]

It's been a long time since I've read KNF, Unremembered Empire, Betrayer, Pharos, Ruinstorm etc, but from my memory, it really was established that the Ruinstorm was purpose built to isolate Ultramar from the wider Imperium, and from everything the loyalists could reasonably expect, it - for the most part - did. 

[Zuvassin]

I haven't read the books in a while, but I vaguely recall part of the 'scandal' surrounding Imperium 2.0 was there were rumors or implications (or maybe it was outright known) that Guilliman's actions indicated that he had already planned contingencies for treachery of the legions, primarchs, and possibly even the Emperor (or other 'Emperor no longer true leader of the Imperium' scenarios).

 

IE that in the paranoia of the Heresy era (as well as the scouring afterwards), Guilliman's actions came off or could have come off as indicating he had planned his own treachery and used Horus' as the opportunity to launch his own betrayal.

 

My memory may be wrong - I just vaguely recall a scene of surprise or concern when someone realizes that among Guilliman's endless scenarios and war games there existed scenarios involving the then-unthinkable Marine vs Marine, which were sorta dismissed as just proof of Guilliman's tendency to overplan for everything but that in hindsight could have been interpreted as proof of ulterior motives.

[karden00]

I haven't read the books in a while, but I vaguely recall part of the 'scandal' surrounding Imperium 2.0 was there were rumors or implications (or maybe it was outright known) that Guilliman's actions indicated that he had already planned contingencies for treachery of the legions, primarchs, and possibly even the Emperor (or other 'Emperor no longer true leader of the Imperium' scenarios).

 

IE that in the paranoia of the Heresy era (as well as the scouring afterwards), Guilliman's actions came off or could have come off as indicating he had planned his own treachery and used Horus' as the opportunity to launch his own betrayal.

 

My memory may be wrong - I just vaguely recall a scene of surprise or concern when someone realizes that among Guilliman's endless scenarios and war games there existed scenarios involving the then-unthinkable Marine vs Marine, which were sorta dismissed as just proof of Guilliman's tendency to overplan for everything but that in hindsight could have been interpreted as proof of ulterior motives.

 

Could you be thinking of The Lion's suspicions of Guilliman at the end of (I think it was The Lion...?) where he gets a signal to come to Ultramar and he is all like "Ill put him down if he is disloyal...grumble brood distrust..." 

If so, I would argue that being on the other end of The Lion's suspicions is hardly a compelling piece of evidence. 

 

Regardless, I am not sure your memory holds to the established literature. The whole point of KNF was that Thiel (Not Guilliman, who indeed censures the Sergeant) was found to be grievously out of step when he started theorizing Astartes vs Astartes. 

Only after Calth was Rules of Engagement (barfs in mouth - hate that story) set andthe idea of fighting any other legionary force widely experimented upon. 

[wildweasel]

The only mistake about Imperium Secundus was crowning an Emperor. Given the practical impossibility of any major fleet actions past into/past the Ruinstorm (as in it would be essentially suicide), creating a bastion and rallying point for Imperial forces was the smartest thing to do.

As for individual ships making their way through and the warp routes map: yes, a few ships being lucky enough to end up...somewhere...is a far different case from being able to move full fleets across the galaxy safely. Those warp routes may have existed - but still been storm-wracked and really only useful to traitor forces at the time. And if travel was easy enough that Roboute was negligent in not getting a scout/courier vessel through to Terra, why didn't one ever come through the other way?

[Gorgoff]

The galaxy is a disc not a sphere.

They could move down, left, and back up.

I never got that two dimensional thinking in Star Trek and definitely not in "Oh. My. GAWD. The Tyranids attack from below the galactic disc!" 40.000. ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

The only mistake about Imperium Secundus was crowning an Emperor. Given the practical impossibility of any major fleet actions past into/past the Ruinstorm (as in it would be essentially suicide), creating a bastion and rallying point for Imperial forces was the smartest thing to do.

 

As for individual ships making their way through and the warp routes map: yes, a few ships being lucky enough to end up...somewhere...is a far different case from being able to move full fleets across the galaxy safely. Those warp routes may have existed - but still been storm-wracked and really only useful to traitor forces at the time. And if travel was easy enough that Roboute was negligent in not getting a scout/courier vessel through to Terra, why didn't one ever come through the other way?

Considering there’s 5000 Iron Hands on one Grand Cruiser that would be included in ‘some randoms’, we can start to see why one or two ships moving through the storm is possible and strategically important. 5000 Iron Hands is an entire Clan Companies worth of Isstvaan survivors. Ships did come through the other way, as noted in Book 6.

[wildweasel]

Ships with word from Terra or nah?

[Marshal Rohr]

Uh, maybe?

[Zuvassin]

Could you be thinking of The Lion's suspicions of Guilliman at the end of (I think it was The Lion...?) where he gets a signal to come to Ultramar and he is all like "Ill put him down if he is disloyal...grumble brood distrust..." 

I don’t believe so. What I’m thinking of I think was just amongst Ultramarines. The vibe was in line with the usual pre-Heresy vibe of how unthinkable Marine vs Marine was, rather than the more hostile paranoid vibe between the more rival-oriented Legions.

 

Sorry I can’t be more specific. The whole Imperium 2.0 wasn’t super interesting to me so I haven’t thought about it in a while.

[Charlo]

I liked it, was a nice way of filling out what those Legions were doing.

 

Plus I super enjoyed Angels of Caliban & Ruinstorm.

[wildweasel]

Uh, maybe?

 

It would have made the ending of Angels of Caliban more than a little pointless and nonsensical then.

 

 

I liked it, was a nice way of filling out what those Legions were doing.

 

Plus I super enjoyed Angels of Caliban & Ruinstorm.

 

And speaking of, AoC was one of the few Gav Thorpe books I actually got through quickly. He's a great person, I like his ideas, but most of his books are just interminable slogs for me (I just finished Corax after months of startign and stopping).

[Kasper_Hawser]

One thing to note guys, regardless of what Guilliman did during the Imperium Secundus, he literally dropped EVERYTHING to penetrate the Ruinstorm even though at the time he still thought it was impregnable, as soon as he accepted the convoluted reason Lion gave at the end of Angels of Caliban that the Emperor was still alive and the Imperium still lived at the other side.

 

Regardless of your thought of whether Guilliman was stupid, wise, followed military thinking or otherwise, the guy when he realised he was wrong proceeded to try brute force his way through the storm together with his two brothers.

 

In a sense, once he had proof (however flimsy and strange, damn you Gav Thorpe.... sorry, my personal opinion is that GT gives very weird and convoluted plots that don't make sense, no offense to those who like him), he behaved like any other loyal primarch: charge straight for Terra. 

 

To answer the OP question though, my opinion is there was nothing wrong with Imperium Secundus. The main argument seems to be how reasonable was RG being when he did so based on his available information. Depending not only on the author but also HOW WE the readers perceive the writing, RG either comes out as stupid or rational. Personally speaking, I think RG reasons for creating Imperium Secundus is STRETCHING the limit of his logic at the time, but not completely unreasonable based on my intrepretation.

 

Either way, he won't be the only primarch who made stupid or weird decisions despite what we readers/players from omnipresent perspective, can tell and judge with seeming obviousness. Just look at Magnus. Everyone from the Emperor to Jagatai TOLD/ORDERED/ADVISED him to exercise caution with warpcraft. Or Curze being unable to see anything but the dark of humanity despite the other primarchs showing him a different side of humanity apart from what he was accustomed to. All of them are blind to their own faults in a way, even my favorite Primarch Leman Russ.

[Ishagu]

That's very true. We can't really criticise RG when Russ literally had Horus on his knees and could have killed him before the Siege, but didn't do it

[Kasper_Hawser]

That's very true. We can't really criticise RG when Russ literally had Horus on his knees and could have killed him before the Siege, but didn't do it

 

Sigh, I heard about it but haven't read wolfsbane as it wasn't written by mighty Chris Wright. Frankly I don't know whether to be embarassed or proud of that moment for Russ. Embarassed because he had an opportunity to kill the arch traitor once and for all but chickened out, or the fact that he was CAPABLE of chickening out at the slightest chance of redemption for Horus is something to be greatly admired and shows that among the primarchs, only the furry was capable of changing his stripes/fur.

 

Anyway, a bit off topic, as I stated earlier, RG's Imperium Secundus would hardly be the top of the list of stupid things Primarchs did which they shouldn't have done.

[Ishagu]

Wolfsbane was actually very interesting, but Russ really dropped the ball at the end.

 

Back to RG, he's the most squeaky clean of all the Primarchs with the exception of Dorn. People latch on to any flaw they can find because of the prevailing disdain for the Ultras.

 

Dark Angels are guilty and continue to do wrong in the 42nd millenium.

Blood Angels hide a terrible flaw that would see their Chapter censured by the Inquisition.

The Space Wolves have mutated forces and practised warpcraft after Nikea, Russ chose not to Destroy the Arch Traitor and could have prevented the fate of the Emperor. THAT's Heresy lol

 

Etc Etc

 

Guilliman had a back up Imperium in case Terra had fallen and dismantled it upon learning the truth. Big Deal

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Sigh, I heard about it but haven't read wolfsbane as it wasn't written by mighty Chris Wright. Frankly I don't know whether to be embarassed or proud of that moment for Russ. Embarassed because he had an opportunity to kill the arch traitor once and for all but chickened out, or the fact that he was CAPABLE of chickening out at the slightest chance of redemption for Horus is something to be greatly admired and shows that among the primarchs, only the furry was capable of changing his stripes/fur.

 

Anyway, a bit off topic, as I stated earlier, RG's Imperium Secundus would hardly be the top of the list of stupid things Primarchs did which they shouldn't have done.

 

Embarrassed. It's imo the worst fluff in the Heresy, and has completely ruined Russ as a character for me.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Wolfsbane was actually very interesting, but Russ really dropped the ball at the end.

 

Back to RG, he's the most squeaky clean of all the Primarchs with the exception of Dorn. People latch on to any flaw they can find because of the prevailing disdain for the Ultras.

 

Dark Angels are guilty and continue to do wrong in the 42nd millenium.

Blood Angels hide a terrible flaw that would see their Chapter censured by the Inquisition.

The Space Wolves have mutated forces and practised warpcraft after Nikea, Russ chose not to Destroy the Arch Traitor and could have prevented the fate of the Emperor. THAT's Heresy lol

 

Etc Etc

 

Guilliman had a back up Imperium in case Terra had fallen and dismantled it upon learning the truth. Big Deal

 

Not to complete disagree with you, but your assessment is a little shallow and is based on the usual memes about DA being traitors, BA being vampires and SW being furries and hypocrites. Well, the SW part may be correct but believe it or not, they actually have some very good reasons for both being furries and hypocrites. Won't go into it, let's just say the my favorite chapter aren't as simplistic as they seem.

 

But before we go primarch bashing, back to OP. As you say though, big deal on RG consolidating his empire when he thought the Imperium was gone compared to other primarchs.