Kallas' Adventures In The Snow

[Kallas]

Good luck! I'm eager to read your report and see how the new list performed. My guess is that at least one vindicator should die in the first two turns but will draw the majority of your opponent's firepower. That in itself is good since it should leave the death squad and transport relatively unscathed.

Yeah, I expect a Vindicator to go down as the first target but, as you say, it should draw fire from the transports - plus it's T8, so is a decent amount tougher than a Rhino.

 

My only concern is that you no longer have any long range firepower to support your advance. This could be problematic if you have difficulty moving your tanks forward due to terrain or enemy shenanigans - Thunderfire cannon stratagem comes to mind.

That's definitely a concern, yeah. I think a lot of it will boil down to how much of a threat my opponent(s) view the Vindicators as: the community as a whole has spent so long considering them trash that it might be easy to put them low down on the target priority radar.

 

I'm guessing that I'll get to see how non-Linebreaker Vindicators work out and if they're worth 125pts!

 

Regarding the Thunderfire Cannon, I guess that is something of an issue, but they only get to slow down one thing a turn, so it shouldn't be too bad. Not a worry for this game vs Tau anyway

[Kallas]

No battle report just yet, but here's a synopsis:

 

AAAAAAAARRRGGGGHH!!!!

 

Spoiler alert:

It went badly. I'm actually very annoyed about it.

[Kallas]

Back with a couple of new reports, aren’t you lot lucky?

First one, Game #5 of 5 in the League for me, is up against Tau. Honestly, it’s not going to be a very long report as it, on the back of my previous game against Knights, has made me really angry. Not anything to do with my opponent(s) really, but just two not fun games which were basically just dice going against me 90% of the time. I suppose that’s a minor spoiler: I lose this game. it, there, I’ve said it!

Anyway… This was my final League game and I actually got to try out a different list, as I’d lost my previous game so was allowed to alter my list. As I wanted to give out a full armour rush a try, I figured why not?

Space Wolves

Two Battalions

Wolf Lord (JP, TH, SS, Warlord, Wulfen Stone)

Rune Priest (JP, Sword, Tempest’s Wrath, Storm Caller, Armour of Russ)

3x WGBL (JP, TH, SS)

6x5 Grey Hunters (Bolters and Chainswords)

2x Rhino (2x Storm Bolters)

2x Razorbacks (Twin Assault Cannons, Storm Bolters)

3x Vindicators

General idea: a big wall of vehicles that the enemy kind of has to deal with. The Vindicators distract from the transports, kind of, which should allow my Grey Hunters to get up in their face relatively unscathed. If the Vindicators don’t go down quickly then they can do some good damage with Linebreaker Bombardment.

Wolf Lord took Saga of the Beastslayer, again, as there were enough tough targets to make it worthwhile.

Tau

Battalion: Tau Sept

Cadre Fireblade

Coldstar (3x Fusion Blaster, Shield Generator; Warlord – Through Unity, Devastation, Onager Gauntlet)

Longstrike (Railgun, 2x Burst Cannon, 2x Seeker Missiles)

8 Breachers

4x 10 Strike Teams (Markerlights)

Riptide (HBC, SMS, ATS, TL – the classic Riptide)

3 Stealth Suits (Fusion Blast on Shas’ui)

Hammerhead (Railgun, 2x Burst Cannon, 2x Seeker Missile)

Devilfish (SMS, Burst Cannon)

Outrider: Tau Sept

Cadre Fireblade

Commander Farsight (breaks the Sept bonuses, but only for units that don’t care too much)

8 Pathfinders

2x 4 Shield Drones

So a hefty Tau gunline with some mobility. Coldstar is going to be annoying to deal with; Riptide too. Hammerheads can be a big issue, and the mass of Pulse Rifles will hurt everything. Onager Gauntlet on the Coldstar and Farsight himself will present some melee presence, but I should be able to punch through them.

Mission/Deployment:

Mission One: Seize Ground (six objectives in two chevrons pointing towards one another)

Deployment: 4, Hammer and Anvil (Blurgh! Lots of room for Tau guns to deploy back)

Secondary Objectives:

Space Wolves:

Big Game Hunter (Hammerheads, Devilfish and Riptide are all valid targets, and three of those are dangerous units that need shut down anyway)

Recon (I’ve got the mobility, and I tend to leave one or two units in my backfield anyway – it’s a good choice, generally)

Old School (a little risky, as First Strike isn’t going to be easy, but I want to kill his Coldstar anyway; I want to be in his deployment; and I intend to kill stuff every round!)

Tau:

Big Game Hunter (I mean…obviously!)

Headhunter (yeah, my guys are wanting to be in his face and are big threats)

Butcher’s Bill (fair enough, I do lots of individual units, and he has a lot of firepower so pretty reasonable)

Deployment Notes:

Opponent won the initial roll off, so got to choose his deployment zone.

Space Wolf Deployment:

Tau Deployment:

I finish deploying first (deployed the first unit and have 12 drops; he had 14 minimum)

I lose the roll off, great. I then fail to Seize. Wonderful. This isn’t going to be a fun game, yay.

Just a head up: this is going to be a pretty brief write up – I don’t feel like diving deep into the game, and there’s really not a huge amount to cover, to be honest. I made a few mistakes, I feel, and I’ll cover them in the post-game thoughts.

Tau T1

I use the Turn One cover stratagem (a waste, FYI)

Coldstar jumps on to the central building, looking down at my phalanx. Hammerheads stay still as they aim at a Vindicator. Not much else moves.

Markerlights, plus stratagem, land 5 on a Vindicator, which promptly gets destroyed by one Railgun shot and a single Seeker Missile from Longstrike. Yay… A Rhino gets bracketed once.

Could have been worse, I suppose, but that’s a pretty big problem for me so far, especially as I still have ~30” to cross to get to his big guns.

Scored: Kill One, Hold One, 1x BGH.

SW T1

Everything but one WGBL advances and pops smoke: Rune Priest casts Storm Caller and uses Cloaked by the Storm.

The lone WGBL charges the Stealth Suits and Coldstar (minimal overwatch, due to ruins/angles) and manages the long charge (about 8/9”) to reach the Stealth Suits with the potential to consolidate into the Coldstar.

He smushes the Stealths and consolidates upwards. Coldstar manages to deal one wound (thankfully not the Onager Gauntlet, which bounced off his shield). I pop Honour the Chapter (probably a waste) – yup, manage a single wound which is saved. Blurgh.

Scored: Kill One, Hold One, First Strike (Stealth Suits)

End of Round One Scores:

Tau: 3 (K1, H1, BGHx1)

SW: 3 (K1, H1/More, First Strike)

Tau T2

Coldstar leaves combat with full shooting capabilities (but that’s not too powerful or anything, no, just melee FLY things. Urgh.)

Not much else moves, as they don’t really need to.

Shooting thankfully yields little, as Storm Caller/Cloaked by the Storm/Smoke protects the vehicles, although the damaged Rhino is still destroyed. Only the heroic WGBL is killed due to being out in front and on his lonesome, but at least he got me about 3 points (Kill One, First Strike and denied my opponent Kill More) so probably worth it.

Scored: Kill One, Hold One, 1x Headhunter (WGBL), 1x Big Game Hunter (damaged Rhino), 1x Butcher’s Bill

SW T2

I push my second Rhino forward after one unit of Grey Hunters jump out (of the destroyed Rhino) on to the central objective, the other pushing forwards to engage the Fire Warriors near Longstrike. Vindicators move up to shoot at Longstrike, but do sweet all because they are terrible without Linebreaker Bombardment.

Razorbacks hold back some and annihilate the Pathfinders. Other Grey Hunters from the destroyed Rhino, and one from a Razorback, advance backwards to camp on a backfield objective to score me the bonus objective.

Rhino charges the Fire Warriors, as do the Grey Hunters and, with a huge long charge, as does one of the WGBLs. Long story short, three Fire Warriors die because of the WGBL. The Grey Hunters whiffed/bounced off Tau 4+ armour. Urgh. I don’t even manage to lock them in combat because of that.

Scored: Kill One, Hold One, Bonus Objective, Recon.

End of Round Two Score:

Tau: 8

SW: 8 (Kill More, Hold More)

Tau T3

Fire Warriors fall back: the Rhino, its occupants and the Grey Hunters nearby all get gunned down. Central Grey Hunters get messed up, I think one survives.

Scored: Kill One, Hold One, 1x Big Game Hunter (Rhino)

SW T3

Well, a lot of my stuff is dying extremely quickly. Yay.

Characters jump forward to try and grab the Coldstar and some Fire Warriors, as that will at least lessen the firepower they can put out, even though they’re not worth much points-wise.

They fail. One WGBL is killed in overwatch; one fails a 7” charge; Wolf Lord manages a mighty 3” charge in to two measly Fire Warriors, and the Rune Priest fails his charge. Wonderful.

Scored: Kill One (Wolf Lord does crush the Fire Warriors), Hold One, Bonus Objective, Recon

End of Round Four Score:

Tau: 14 (Kill More)

SW: 13 (Hold More)

Rounds 4+

Basically: Tau clean up. Lots of guns point at my wayward characters and systematically annihilate them taking minimal casualties (one WGBL manages to kill about ten Fire Warriors). Longstrike does eventually die to the Vindicators in round five (that’s four full rounds of firing Demolisher Cannons at him!)

Final Score:

Tau: 28 (maxed all Secondaries)

SW: 21 (a mighty four points in all three Secondaries…)

My general feelings on the game:

Post-Game Thoughts:

• Well, that was not fun in any way. Lost the first turn roll, got shot up for six consecutive turns and failed basically every important roll I made (ie, all of the charges and actually causing damage). I hate blaming dice, but essentially nothing worthwhile went my way; about the only decent thing was a WGBL making the charge into the Stealth Suits. That was it.
• 
  
• Tau are just not fun to play against, especially when they have 2/3rds of the length of the board for space to deploy/back up into.
• 
  
• Vindicators. Oh my God-Emperor, they’re terrible. Without Linebreaker Bombardment they are horribly anaemic, and they just don’t do jack to anything – they pounded away at Longstrike for four/five turns and only just managed to bring him down. They were hurt massively by losing the first turn roll: going first they’d have been forward and pounding away with LBB immediately. Instead, one died instantly and the other did nothing (well, nothing in a reasonable timeframe).
• 
  
• I do think I made some mistakes: I couldn’t counter-deploy my stuff, because of the difference in drops, but first turn I could have just moved everything around on the right hand side to just gun for Longstrike/Hammerhead, leaving the Riptide in the lurch and needing to redeploy (not that that matters too much, as it doesn’t lose any accuracy on the move…urgh). That would have let me jump on Longstrike and his buddy, massively reducing his anti-armour potential. But I still needed to wade through three full turns of firepower before an assault was even possible.
• 
  
• I need to roll better, I guess?
• 
  

I’m going to move on from this game now, because it was extremely unfun. I hate playing against Tau. They might be boring for the Tau player, but they’re even worse for the opponent. They might not be top tier, but they’re certainly not weak.

I’ll be posting another battle report either tonight or tomorrow (depends on how tired I am after work!), which is more positive, but will also be quite short.

Thanks for reading, and I do still welcome comments/criticisms!

Thanks,

Tom.

[TiguriusX]

Is the Tau game the one you were mad and didn't want to do a batrep for?

 

You aren't the first to complain about that faction.  All they do is shoot at you...which is not a very interactive experience

 

They can direct fire or indirect fire etc. and the Tau player seems to be playing their own dice rolling game instead of interacting with you.

 

Hope your next games are more fun.

 

*Also...your vindicator experience

 

Remember when we put it in the goal was distraction carnifex.  Don't expect them to actually do anything because they will be priority target #1

This is doubly so if opponent gets first turn because you lose the line breaker bombardment trick (and a smart opponent will focus fire to guarantee 1 dies)

 

Does the rest of the army not have enough punch to make up for it?

[Kallas]

Yeah, it was that game. Took me about two weeks to not be super frustrated by it!

 

Next game is at least interactive!

 

RE: Vindicators:

Yeah, they were supposed to be a distraction Carnifex, but immediately removing one made them functionally a non-threat. I'll try them again at some point, but I still need some time as that was very demoralising.

 

Thing is, they can only function as a distraction Carnifex if there are three of them, as on their own merits they are complete trash.

 

The rest of the army kind of had enough punch, though dice just said no that game. I honestly prefer Bjorn and maybe an extra Razorback as a difference. The Vindicators are 375; Twin LC Bjorn and a third Twin AC Razorback would be less, giving me better firepower, more transports and a tough, untargetable beat stick.

 

Like I said, I'll try the Vindicators out again, but I'm not sure they'll be worthwhile until they either get better rules or drop to 80-90 points - they are not threatening to vehicles and they're pathetic vs infantry, so after the first dies they're a non-issue.

 

Sigh. Also bugs me that CA did not nearly enough to make Marines good, other than Deathwatch (and only then because of Storm Shield spam!)

[Kallas]

Ok, another battle report. This one I didn’t have to wait two weeks to calm down after. This time it’s just a friendly, a last game (at the club, at least, probably for the year though) before 2019!

So this time I was facing down Genestealer Cults. I’ve never played them before, and I missed their turn one Cult Ambush shenanigans and I’ve heard that they’d hit most of the branches on the unplayable tree on the way down! So I guess I’ll see how true that is!

Space Wolves:

Double Battalion

Wolf Lord (JP, TH, SS, Warlord, Wulfen Stone)

Rune Priest (JP, Sword, Storm Bolter, Psychic Hood, Tempest’s Wrath, Storm Caller)

3x WGBL (JP, TH, SS)

Bjorn (Heavy Plasma Cannon – I couldn’t quite fit in the Twin Lascannon, and this is at least quite a bit cheaper post-CA!)

6x5 Grey Hunters (Bolters and Chainswords)

3x Rhinos (1x Storm Bolters)

2x Stormhawk Interceptors (Typhoon Missile Launchers, Icarus Stormcannons – down 12pts each after CA!)

Wolf Lord took Saga of the Wolfkin, as there isn’t much in the way of heavy armour in the GSC list (below), and there are plenty of dudes. Bjorn with HPC will be an interesting test: he’s not likely to hurt himself between innate rerolls and his 5+ FNP. Rune Priest stuck with TW and SC, as they’re very good generalist powers – if there’s ever a gunless/gun-minimal army, I may drop SC, but it’s almost always useful when it goes off.

I do love my Stormhawks – I have tried a similar list when I was running Blood Angels (it was three Predators, two Stormhawks and a Stormraven) and they actually rolled very well for me, and their mobility was always very useful. For the Wolves, I have better support (the Psychic Powers, plus Keen Senses) which should make them a little more interesting. Their innate -1 to hit is also welcome, as with Cloaked by the Storm they’d be at -2 (same as the transports post-Smoke) but still firing; and as they’re not transports, plus the Infernum Halo Launchers for rerolling saves of 1, they’re pretty resilient and an entirely different target to the (relatively innocuous) Rhinos.

Genestealer Cults:

Double Battalion

2x Primus (for rerolls on the Cult Ambush table)

Abominant (Warlord)

Magus (Might From Beyond [+1 S and +1 A for a unit])

10 Acolyte Hybrids

2x 10 Neophyte Hybrids (Shotguns)

1x 10 Neophyte Hybrids (Las/Autoguns, 1 Missile Launcher Team)

2x 10 Neophyte Hybrids (Las/Autoguns, 2x Mining Lasers)

2x 5 Aberrants (Power Picks; one with Hypermorph with Heavy Improvised Weapon)

(I’m a little hazy on what his list was entirely, but the GSC units were something like this)

Guard Battalion: Brood Brothers

Tank Commander (Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Plasma Cannon sponsons)

Company Commander (Bolter and Chainsword)

3x Infantry Squads (Bolter and Chainsword Sergeant)

2x3 Mortar Heavy Weapons Squads

Leman Russ (Battle Cannon, Lascannon)

Leman Russ (Punisher, Heavy Bolter

Quite a lot of bodies, and a couple of potential nasty surprises.

He also used one of the Vigilus Specialist Detachments (the one that buffs Aberrants), and took the Warlord Trait from that for the Abominant.

Mission/Deployment:

We went with ITC again, as we’d just been playing a bunch throughout the League, and ITC is good!

Mission Six: Crucible of Champions (five objectives in a cross; hold three with characters for the bonus objective)

Deployment Five: Frontline Assault (shallow, lengthways ‘pointy’ one)

Secondary Objectives:

Space Wolves:

Reaper (he has so many guys, it’s an obvious choice)

Recon (I have the mobility, especially with the Hawks)

Marked For Death: (his high PL units are the ones I have plenty of capability to take down)

• Leman Russ (Battle Cannon)
• Tank Commander
• Both Aberrant units

GSC:

Big Game Hunter

Headhunter

Recon

Pretty standard vs me, to be honest!

Deployment Notes:

I lost the roll off, so my opponent chose his side. Neither side had particularly good cover (and honestly the club needs a bit more in the way of LOS blocking terrain, but I think our terrain guy is working on it!) so he chose the one that gave me less cover. Fair enough!

He put a whole heap of units in to Cult Ambush and I finished deploying first.

GSC Deployment:

Space Wolf Deployment:

Stormhawks are out of the picture: they’re deployed in each corner, pointed towards the centre (basically so that I can turn 90 degrees either way for maximum options)

I win the first turn roll off, and my opponent fails to Seize. He uses the Prepared Positions stratagem (I mean, he has 18CP to burn!).

SW T1:

Movement: Bjorn is deployed within 3” of my back objective and just within 36” of his Tank Commander, so stays still. I’m not too worried about him being ambushed: at worst, one of my Rhinos can divert back to dig him out from under the bodies of the Cultists! Rhinos advance up, with the characters jumping up in to the middle; Stormhawks fly in to within 6” of both the Wolf Lord and Rune Priest.

Psychic: Magus is within 24”, but fails to deny Storm Caller (cast on a 10!), and then Cloaked by the Storm is used.

Shooting: Rhinos pop smoke. One Stormhawk gets Keen Senses, and they both use their Assault Cannons on the Mining Laser Hybrids (and some spare shots from the second Hawk on the Missile unit); Stormcannon and Krak Missiles on the Tank Commander. Many Hybrids are obliterated, TC only takes two wounds, but that’s alright.

Scored: Kill One, Hold One, 1x Reaper. (I messed up and missed out on Recon, but should have plenty of time to rectify).

GSC T1:

Movement: Guardsmen move up; Punisher rolls backwards a little bit (just on to his back objective). Magus moves just out of 24” of my Rune Priest, but still within 18” of the lead Rhino.

Psychic: Smite causes two wounds to the Rhino. I don’t use Armour of Contempt, as I figure with -2 to hit and +1 Save it should survive this round.

Shooting: Rhino lives! It’s down to 4 wounds after the LRBC and TC unload, but they’re hitting on 6s and 5s respectively. LR-TC overcharges (my opponent was very blasé, not caring about the -2 and increased overcharge issue at all!) and suffers a couple of wounds.

Charge: Some Hybrids charge the Rhino, but my Wolf Lord and all three WGBL manage to intervene. 9/10 Hybrids are killed (with the Wolfkin Deed being achieved) and the last flees.

Scored: Hold One.

End of Round One Score:

SW: 5 (Kill More, Hold More)

GSC: 1

SW T2:

Movement: Crippled Rhino disgorges its contents right into the Cult lines. Middle/back Rhino hunkers down next to the centre objective and Rune Priest (who sits on the objective for the bonus). One WGBL accompanies the Wolf Lord on a mission to kill the Punisher, and a Rhino moves up to absorb the overwatch. One Stormhawk moves up to annihilate the Magus; the other just floats about a bit.

Psychic: Tempest’s Wrath goes on the Tank Commander (not denied) and Storm Caller fails. No CbtS.

Shooting: Magus becomes a fine red mist, and the two Stormhawks drop the LR-TC down to one wound left. The other LRBC is bracketed once too. Grey Hunters kill off a squad of Guardsmen, shoot up the Mortars and get ready to charge in.

Charge: Rhino soaks up the Punisher’s overwatch, and the Lord/WGBL charge in. Grey Hunters jump on the crippled Missile Launcher squad, and a fully healthy Guardsman squad.

Fight: Wolf Lord demolishes the Punisher readily and captures the far objective (for the bonus point). Grey Hunters slaughter the Missile Launcher squad, but don’t quite pull off a taking a prisoner from the other squad, but they suffer no casualties in return.

Scored: Kill One, Hold One, 1x Recon.

GSC T2:

Movement: Guardsmen in combat fall back, remaining tanks stay still.

Everything Ambushes in:

Aberrants with Abominant use the stratagem to get the best result (9”, then a full move) to ambush the Rune Priest, but he does have the WGBLs nearby.

Other Aberrants get shepherded in by a Primus and get to move a mighty 1” after appearing towards the Wolf Lord and Rhino.

The rest roll terribly, with the other Primus appearing in the middle of nowhere and the other Hybrid squads mostly appearing in useless positions (lots of 3s on the Cult Ambush table!). One shotgun unit does roll a 6, so get a full move towards the front-most Grey Hunters.

Shooting: Grey Hunters in the open get shot up a lot, dropping down to just the Pack Leader, who survives until the end to become a Lone Wolf. Other Grey Hunters get vapourised by the LR-TC’s Plasma and Battle Cannon, even though it’s only hitting on 6s! That’s about it. With so many Hybrids/Guardsmen dead, and the tanks crippled or destroyed he doesn’t have a whole lot of shooting.

Charge: Abominant and his Aberrants charge the Rune Priest successfully, but the WGBLs intervene. Primus and Aberrants successfully charge the Wolf Lord (but only just!) and his WGBL buddy also intervenes. Freshly Lone’d Wolf Pack Leader intervenes into the depleted Guardsmen next to him.

Fight: Armour of Russ locks down the Aberrants. The Abominant fights first, but bounces off of the Rune Priest’s invulnerable. Wolf Lord interrupts and kills four of the threatening Aberrants before they can strike – plus, with the way the WGBL intervened, he’d moved into base to base with the surviving Hypermorph, who then couldn’t reach anyone to attack! Primus manages a single wound on to the Wolf Lord. The other Aberrants get smushed to a fine paste by the WGBLs and Rune Priest in the centre, and the surviving Aberrant from the other unit is pulped too.

Scored: Kill One.

Turn Three

At this point, my opponent concedes. With the bad Ambush rolls and his units getting picked apart by Space Wolf interventions; and his shooting being ineffective due to my defensive formation in turn one, he’s basically got nothing left – and it’s my turn next!

It’s fair enough: GSC got hit hard by the deep strike change. If he’d been able to drop in turn one he could have potentially done some more damage, or sacrificed some more of his chaff units to slow down my forces. Regardless, a lot of the GSC units don’t feel particularly dangerous, aside from Purestrain Genestealers themselves. Sure, 20/40 Genestealers popping up 9” away and then moving 8” for a perfect charge is terrifying, but that’s about it.

Post-Game Thoughts:

This was a bit of a blowout the other way from the last game. My opponent’s army has been gutted by the Big FAQ Deep Strike changes, which is a huge issue for GSC, and Aberrants are quite expensive for not really that dangerous? Maybe I’m a little skewed by the Heroic Intervention/Armour of Russ/Counter Attack systematically shutting down his dangerous units, though, but they didn’t seem especially dangerous on paper – maybe against my Grey Hunters, but not really vs my characters.

• Bjorn: Heavy Plasma Cannon was ok, did about 4-6 wounds to the Tank Commander from long range while locking down an objective. Would have preferred the Twin Lascannon, but it wasn’t a bad cheaper substitute!
• Stormhawks: I do love these Flyers, they just look and feel like an Astartes air superiority unit to me! Previously they were just too expensive for what they did (that loadout used to be 192pts!) but now they’re only 177 and with Keen Senses they’re pretty damn flexible – especially considering it helps get around the Stormcannon’s weakness vs non-FLY troops! They were consistently dishing out good anti-horde firepower while being fundamentally untouchable for the low BS/non-FLY melee units. I’d consider running Lastalons, but they are significantly more expensive (why they’re still 40pts when they’re a straight up worse Twin Lascannon is true, confusing GW balancing form!)
• Death Squad: When they’re not failing 4/5 charges, they’re still great! I was concerned I’d maybe messed up when I left my Wolf Lord out with only one buddy, but in doing so I had inadvertently protected my Rune Priest from getting Ambushed! 6” Heroic Intervention guys, it’s a truly brilliant ability, and it makes Space Wolf character terrifying. If you’re not taking ruthless advantage of it, then you’re missing out on a huge power jump for our characters!

I think that’s it for this report, I’m not sure when I’ll be back for another one but I’ll let you know ASAP!

As always, I welcome comments and criticism!

Thanks,

Tom.

[TiguriusX]

Nice victory

 

My immediate response was "so long vindicators...we hardly knew you"

 

hahaha

[Kallas]

Nice victory

 

My immediate response was "so long vindicators...we hardly knew you"

 

hahaha

Hah, yeah. I don't own three, so I can only use them when I can borrow three. I am going to try them again at some point but...urgh, they are just crap outside of LBB, even as a distraction Carnifex!

[jerrys]

Hey! (1) expressing some interest in seeing more of these, if you're still trying this? I really like this style of army, but am not that good at playing 40k...

And (2) I had a recent (terrible loss) with an army along these lines. I did a bunch of dumb stuff (listed at the bottom), but I wonder...if you have a chance to read through it, I would appreciate your thoughts. It's written up here: http://www.aurumvorax.com/forumViewThread.php?threadID=168

I think probably the main problem was that I was not aggressive enough. But it was against orks...i was afraid to be aggressive. Still, I think it would have worked better if I were.

[GrFlur]

A wolf afraid to be agressive it's like an owl afraid of the darkness or a fish afraid of water ...

 

Show them your fangs and let them feel true terror coming with our growls an howls!

[TiguriusX]

Hey! (1) expressing some interest in seeing more of these, if you're still trying this? I really like this style of army, but am not that good at playing 40k...

And (2) I had a recent (terrible loss) with an army along these lines. I did a bunch of dumb stuff (listed at the bottom), but I wonder...if you have a chance to read through it, I would appreciate your thoughts. It's written up here: http://www.aurumvorax.com/forumViewThread.php?threadID=168

I think probably the main problem was that I was not aggressive enough. But it was against orks...i was afraid to be aggressive. Still, I think it would have worked better if I were.

 

Failure is an opportunity to learn

 

 

Never change an army you think you like after a single game.  Give it a good test before you make changes

[Kallas]

Hey! (1) expressing some interest in seeing more of these, if you're still trying this? I really like this style of army, but am not that good at playing 40k...

And (2) I had a recent (terrible loss) with an army along these lines. I did a bunch of dumb stuff (listed at the bottom), but I wonder...if you have a chance to read through it, I would appreciate your thoughts. It's written up here: http://www.aurumvorax.com/forumViewThread.php?threadID=168

I think probably the main problem was that I was not aggressive enough. But it was against orks...i was afraid to be aggressive. Still, I think it would have worked better if I were.

 

(1) Thanks, I do actually have four (I think, maybe three) reports in the bank, although I need to drum up the motivation to get them written up! I'll be honest, though, I'm boarding the Deathwatch train. I've been trying out a few alternative SW lists and aside from characters there's just not a huge amount going for basic Marines. Until new Codex(es) come out to bring Marines, of all stripes, up to a competitive level, I don't really enjoy playing the one list that I've found to be even vaguely successful.

 

(2) Decent batrep, good job! One huge issue with your battle is that you were playing a straight up Kill Point game. They're bad for the game, period. If your only win condition is to kill the enemy, then only the most efficient units will work - my list, and by extension your very similar list, isn't going to work because the driving thrust of it is to play the mission.

 

I recently had another SW player reach out to me and ask for some advice on how to run my list, with a particular emphasis on the Grey Hunters, so I'll put my response(s) to them here for some reference, as you may find it useful:

 

"For the Grey Hunters, their general role is primarily to survive and sit on objectives, but they do have a few things that they're there to do:

• Sit on objectives, preferably out of line of sight and in cover, in the backfield. This is especially useful in ITC missions (which are by far my personal preference: GW missions are crap, in my opinion!) but in pretty much any kind of missions it's usually important to hold as many objectives as possible
• Sit in the Rhinos/Razorbacks to survive the slog upfield, so that they can assist with screening the characters and helping out with thinning down hordes. If a unit of GH dies while absorbing important fire that would otherwise go into the characters, then they've done a good job: the characters are the lifeblood of the list, and they're the main way that it deals with pretty much anything.
• Be something of a distraction. Tactical Squad equivalents (of which GH are basically just Tacticals+) are generally seen as worthless, and with good reason, but sometimes people see a unit of GH roll well (usually vs something like Guardsmen or similar) and become a little worried about their killing power. In that case, they're likely to distract attention away from the characters and vehicles (who have probably not actually done anything until late T2/3) - this is often useful, as with six units you can afford to lose one or two with little effect on the overall effectiveness of the list. If you can get them stuck in to the opponent's squishy troops, then they'll do some decent work, and their threat level will rise in their estimations and so they'll almost certainly put more effort into killing those units; and that's generally good.
• Become Lone Wolves, potentially. I never used this a huge amount, but it's worth remembering that the option is there. If a Pack Leader survives, and would otherwise be covered by other things (such as the vehicles or other upfront GH units) then it can be worthwhile making them a Lone Wolf and running him away to sit on a midfield objective; that makes them functionally untargetable by the enemy's guns, which makes him a good objective camper, and a side effect of becoming a character means that if they're still in the thick of things then they can potentially Heroically Intervene in on enemy shooty units, tying them up for the future.

General principles of the Grey Hunters:

• Die as slowly as possible (hug cover where available; use LOS blocking terrain; tie up squishy units; hide in vehicles)
• Screen the characters
• Hold objectives

Focus on the mission/objectives as much as possible.

 

It doesn't matter if you nearly get tabled if you win on the points. If the opponent dumps all of their firepower into killing the characters, that's ok as long as your Grey Hunters are scoring you enough points to maintain a lead."

 

Quite simply, my list, and yours, should be playing to the objective as much as possible. Against Orks, and other armies that can present massive board control (eg, Genestealer Cults, who are utter bull :cuss by the way!) will be a major problem. In your game, I would recommend looking at how you reacted to their positioning, for example: when he pushed forward with his units and then Da Jump'd one of them right in to you, I feel like you shouldn't have held the line - your vehicles should have pulled away as quickly as possible to open the distance while shoving your remaining Rhino into that unit's teeth while you whittle them down. That would have given you a little more space and possibly time. As you had no objectives to worry about holding, you don't need to keep yourself slowed down. If a unit gets left behind, let them hold the line (ie, don't charge a big mob of Orks, just string them out as wide as possible to make them go as long a way round as possible!) while the remainder of your forces pull away and survive.

 

 

A wolf afraid to be agressive it's like an owl afraid of the darkness or a fish afraid of water ...

 

Show them your fangs and let them feel true terror coming with our growls an howls!

 

I actually disagree with this. There's a time and place for aggression. In jerrys's batrep, I think it was the right call to not advance upfield to meet the Orks head on, as that plays right into their green hands. Against Orks, especially, one needs to do their utmost to defeat them in detail - jump on their Da Jump'd unit with as much as possible, then repeat as they feed more units into the grinder.

 

As much as it saddens me, we simply can't afford to stand toe to toe with most enemies on their terms. We need to shoot their melee units and stab their shooty units (to be fair, this applies to most armies, but it's absolutely paramount for Marines).

 

Failure is an opportunity to learn

 

Never change an army you think you like after a single game.  Give it a good test before you make changes

 

I do agree with this. I had some early success with my list and forced myself to stick with it to give my experience some extra depth - that is incredibly important, not just for learning how to pilot a particular list effectively but also for learning more about the game and opponents in general.

 

I would definitely recommend sticking with your list for the most part. There's room for flex - for example, I don't rate Grimnar particularly highly, and especially not Santa Grimnar. Dropping him would give you 190pts to play with, which is quite a lot (you've already got four HQs, if my reading comprehension is accurate, so you've got the requisite HQs for a double Battalion).

 

Depending on how you want the list to run, 190pts can get you a decent amount of firepower or some additional melee muscle. For instance, you (jerrys) have six transports (four RBacks, two Rhinos; that's forty transport capacity) but you're not utilising all of the space. You could either drop the second Rhino for a further 72/74pts or you could use the 190pts to fill it up with something else. If you want some additional firepower, a unit of ten Wolf Guard with Storm Bolters, five Storm Shields, and five Chainswords is only 170pts and gives you 20/40 Bolter shots and 26 melee Bolter attacks (36 with Wulfen Stone) - for reference, that unit alone will kill, statistically (assuming Rapid Fire, Wolf Lord, Battle Leader vs Painboy and KFF), 9.8 Boyz with shooting and 10 in melee (assuming WL/WGBL and no Stone). That's about 133pts worth of Boyz, which is a pretty good rate of return, and they'll do better vs actual chaff units.

 

Alternatively, you could invest in some Long Fangs with various guns, or simply some more Grey Hunters (although with a base of 6x5 I'd strongly recommend just taking Wolf Guard instead for +1pt each - more base attacks, higher Ld and actual weapon options, eg Storm Bolters and Shields).

 

If I were to recommend a slight retooling of your list:

Battalion One

Wolf Lord with JP, TH, SS

2x WGBL with JP, TH, SS

 

3x5 Hunters

 

Battalion Two

RP with JP, Axe, Psychic Hood

WP with JP, Power Fist

 

3x5 Hunters

 

4x Assault Cannon Razorbacks (SBs)

2x Rhinos (2x SB)

 

That's 241pts left over, with 10 transport capacity available. My personal recommendation:

10 Wolf Guard:

 * WGPL+3 with TH/SB

 * 6 with SB/SS

 

You could split that into 2x5 (2 TH/SB, 3 SB/SS in each) and put them in a separate Razorback to make enemy fire more spread out/less able to remove an individual threat.

[jerrys]

Thanks, guys!

 

I don't think it was the list, I just did some dumb stuff. And, yes, kill points is not the best mission for an MSU list like this. But I could have done much better than I did.

 

He sort of had boyz coming at me from both open sides on my castle. I did try to drive away from one side and charge into the other. It sort of worked -- but I like the idea of feeding a rhino to him on the side I'm running away from, to slow him down. I think that would have been a good idea. I just drove away, and he just ran up and advanced and charged into the column, and I think then consolidated into other tanks. Feeding the rhino (and positioning it such that he has to take the bait because going around is too far) would have been better. I might try that next time.

 

(Yeah, I feel your pain writing the reports up ... it took me 3 weeks to write up / post this one.)

 

Yes, two battalions.

 

The extra empty seats in the rhino is a good point -- I was fiddling/iterating with the list a bunch, and I think I did that by accident. I could easily take one of the rhinos out and free up some points. And Logan. I was thinking to try a land raider crusader in there, maybe? Or maybe Bjorn?

 

The thought with Logan was that he gives the good rerolls to the assault cannon razorbacks. That did help... But I think I relied on the razorbacks too much. They're good, but in this game they were basically the only thing I was making use of (since I didn't push my characters up the field to get into combat)... and they're not good enough for that to work.

On his sled, he does quite well against boyz, though? But for sure he was too easy to take out with shooting when my psychic buffs failed.

 

I do have a lot of long fangs, and I like them. Putting some of them in would sort of water down the tank-only target saturation, though? (I was trying to try that out in this game, and I think it did work pretty well) (maybe it would be OK if they're far back, out of range?)

Predators might fit -- I just don't have any.

 

It's the same with the wolf guard, I guess. I have just the 30 power armor guys painted up (you may have seen that I had to run my blood claws as grey hunters...). I could put together some more? That seems like a good idea, and would fit with the theme of the list. I don't know.

I did notice that my grey hunters got shot up pretty quickly after they got out of the transports to take out some boyz. I guess I am worried that the wolf guard wouldn't last very long? I might get a lone wolf out of it, though...

 

I've also been working on some viking-looking catachans to use as an allied force of kaerls. (But I guess they don't have any tanks to ride in ... that would be a significantly different list. It's still a ways off, though, I only have 10 of them built and none of them painted...)

 

Anyway, thank you guys for your comments.

[Kallas]

Personally, I'd recommend sticking with an armoured core of transports and would advise against Predators. I used them a fair amount when I was running Blood Angels and they were...ok. With Knights running around making people run plenty of anti-tank, they're not worthwhile. That said, don't completely avoid them, do trial them for a few games and see how they do. Having been trying a list with a pair of Stormhawks, however, I really think they are an excellent unit for Space Wolves: they're basically a flying Predator (but tougher: -1 to hit and reroll 1s on Saves vs +1 wound on the Predator - no contest!) and Keen Senses makes them excellent!

 

Wolf Guard, with enough transport capacity, I think fits the armoured core well. They provide a superior infantry unit that you can buff up (if you want to you could drop a WGBL and something to make room for Arjac: Arjac plus Wulfen Stone on the Wolf Lord makes a unit of ten Wolf Guard blend hordes very well!) and are basically just straight better than Grey Hunters, but don't fill up the requisite Troops slots. Slap on Storm Shields and distract the enemy with the WG while the GH hold objectives and pretend that they're just window dressing!

 

Logan...eh. Honestly, Chapter Masters just aren't that great for Marines. Logan's a lot of points for only a little bit better than a Wolf Lord (it's, statistically, a 12% increase over the Wolf Lord) and with no flexibility in loadout (and the JP/TH/SS is just hands down the best way to run SW characters that can take them). He's slow, not especially resilient and Saga of Majesty is just...so meh (only Logan gets the bonus on more than one rule because of the million and one restrictions...and one of them is a crap Morale immunity bubble for one keyword!) - sure, a 9" reroll 1s/2s to hit bubble seems nice, but the opportunity cost for it is high.

 

Guard allies are obviously a decent choice because more CP is always useful, but I think a fair infantry presence would detract from the core of the list. 4-6 vehicles with SC/CbtS makes for an annoyingly resilient Troop screen, and the Razorbacks provide discreet packages of firepower, which again helps to frustrate enemy efforts to remove them. Including Guard allies would give you more flexibility in what Wolves you bring, but it would give your opponent some unprotected infantry to vent their frustrations on and they'd evaporate pretty damn quickly. If you're going with Guard allies, I think the armoured core isn't the main thrust of the list any longer: the more potent, noteworthy units like Wulfen become the focus at that point.

 

A Crusader could be a good addition; but I've actually been exploring the use of the Land Raider Helios since I've been list building Deathwatch. It's basically a 6-capacity Land Raider Phobos (the standard one) with the same Godhammer Lascannons but with a 72" 2d6 7/-1/1 ignoring LOS gun instead of the Twin Heavy Bolter. Considering that the Land Raider is severely allergic to enemy units breathing on the hull, having that extra ranged firepower (and ignoring LOS to boot) could be damn useful. They're also conveniently basically the same cost as a Phobos! They'd bring in a fair amount of anti-tank firepower and the flexibility to go after units that might start hiding or otherwise be out of LOS (eg, Mortar Teams; Eldar Fire and Fade shenanigans, etc). You could potentially go all out with some combination of Helios/Phobos/Crusader for your transport needs while packing in similar amounts of firepower in in different areas - it might require a bit of a rethink in terms of unit/character equipment, but generally a pack of characters with Thunder Hammers will still do good work vs hordes (but they'd need a bit of support, which the Crusader would certainly provide).

 

Generally, though, I'd recommend sticking with the main core of the list (4-6 Rhinos/RBacks, 6x5 GH, 4-6 characters) for at least four games (so three more) just to get a better feel for it. And definitely play more objective games - they're not only better for a more rounded experience, they're just flat out more interesting and fun than, "Herpderp let's just mash our armies together!"