Big FAQ 2 discussion

[BitsHammer]

Thanks for the insight into fly; it does seem some emails and additional review is in order. It definitely seems wonky as I said before, and I’m glad I don’t use it much but am feeling the pain of those who do. I get where people are coming from.

 

I did notice heroic intervention was addressed in the BRB FAQ, but don’t recall seeing much play on its new/elaborated understanding. I know some people used it differently or didn’t know when to fully apply it, so hopefully it’s made clear for all. I don’t use it so again, I wouldn’t know lol.

I do want to point out that the change to fly also stacks with the HI elaboration: flying units who could also HI were more powerful before than now, especially for Space Wolves (who could do it with a 20 attack Jump Pack Rune Priest over a 6" range).

[Kallas]

I do want to point out that the change to fly also stacks with the HI elaboration: flying units who could also HI were more powerful before than now, especially for Space Wolves (who could do it with a 20 attack Jump Pack Rune Priest over a 6" range).

The target of this nerf seems to be Space Marine Characters (ie, the only good units in Space Marine Codexes!). I'd be on board with a slight nerf to Marine characters (probably a points increase) if other Marine things weren't trash.

[BitsHammer]

 

I do want to point out that the change to fly also stacks with the HI elaboration: flying units who could also HI were more powerful before than now, especially for Space Wolves (who could do it with a 20 attack Jump Pack Rune Priest over a 6" range).

The target of this nerf seems to be Space Marine Characters (ie, the only good units in Space Marine Codexes!). I'd be on board with a slight nerf to Marine characters (probably a points increase) if other Marine things weren't trash.

I agree, it's mainly a Space Marine nerf (though I'm sure Harlequinns and Farsight suffer a bit from it too), but it was worth pointing out since it might be a part of why the rule was changed the way it was.

 

I really feel like changes like this need some developer's commentary to go with them.

[Panzer]

 

I really feel like changes like this need some developer's commentary to go with them.

 

 

That's what I'm wishing for most Erratas and even rules in new Codexes since forever lol

[Kallas]

I agree, it's mainly a Space Marine nerf (though I'm sure Harlequinns and Farsight suffer a bit from it too), but it was worth pointing out since it might be a part of why the rule was changed the way it was.

 

I really feel like changes like this need some developer's commentary to go with them.

Yeah, Developer Commentary would really give us some insight on what their thought process is, as some of it seems really counter-productive. And yeah...Harlequins also getting hit with the nerf bat is a bit dumb, as even in soup they're not especially devastating (I mean, they're powerful, but they are also fragile as hell).

[Dracos]

Anyone here ever been in actual hand to hand combat? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could land via parachute or disembark from a APC, let alone some damn flying motorcycle and be vaguely effective in hand to hand until their momentum was adjusted and got their feet bearings under them. Shooting yes, but a knife fight? Forget it.

[BitsHammer]

Anyone here ever been in actual hand to hand combat? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could land via parachute or disembark from a APC, let alone some damn flying motorcycle and be vaguely effective in hand to hand until their momentum was adjusted and got their feet bearings under them. Shooting yes, but a knife fight? Forget it.

Having done combatives training in the Army: a running tackle followed by repeated punching would be about right, otherwise you'd need something like that drop strike with a Thunder Hammer from the Space Marine game to get a "charge at the ground" tactic to work.

[Panzer]

Anyone here ever been in actual hand to hand combat? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could land via parachute or disembark from a APC, let alone some damn flying motorcycle and be vaguely effective in hand to hand until their momentum was adjusted and got their feet bearings under them. Shooting yes, but a knife fight? Forget it.

 

Damn that's hard to say. I also have never used power armour, any kind of Jump Pack or Jetbike, actual melee weapons or indeed have never been in actual serious hand to hand combat. I guess melee is just impossible by default. 

[BitsHammer]

 

Anyone here ever been in actual hand to hand combat? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could land via parachute or disembark from a APC, let alone some damn flying motorcycle and be vaguely effective in hand to hand until their momentum was adjusted and got their feet bearings under them. Shooting yes, but a knife fight? Forget it.

 

Damn that's hard to say. I also have never used power armour, any kind of Jump Pack or Jetbike, actual melee weapons or indeed have never been in actual serious hand to hand combat. I guess melee is just impossible by default. 

 

If you ever did Ren Fair jousting you can at least simulate the difficulty of hitting someone on a Jetbike. :P

[Panzer]

Fighting on any kind of bike would be more of a hit&run style anyway however that's not really a thing in 40k. ^^

[Dracos]

Well all due respect to snarky repartee :) Horses aint jet bikes and while it doesnt compare to parajumping, go take a parachute course and respond. Cinema twist the :cuss out actual hand to hand combat and arguing realism or cinematic realism in a game designers are trying to just make fun for both sides of the table gets tiresome sometimes.

[BitsHammer]

Fighting on any kind of bike would be more of a hit&run style anyway however that's not really a thing in 40k. ^^

Well not as much in modern 40k....though there has been some attempt to try and show it. It's more like come to a rolling stop, hit someone with a stick a couple times and roll away in practice though.

[Ishagu]

Remember guys, don't get too upset YET.

 

It's possible that Cultists and Guardsmen will cost 8 points each after Chapter Approved so the very hordes you fear you won't be able to jump over won't be as prevelant on the tabletop.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I love it when people try to compare a scifi game to reality. Yeah .

[Schlitzaf]

Remember guys, don't get too upset YET.

 

It's possible that Cultists and Guardsmen will cost 8 points each after Chapter Approved so the very hordes you fear you won't be able to jump over won't be as prevelant on the tabletop.

Is that sarcasm? I hope it’s sarcasm cause that be absurd

[Ishagu]

Expect big shake ups

[Kallas]

Anyone here ever been in actual hand to hand combat? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could land via parachute or disembark from a APC, let alone some damn flying motorcycle and be vaguely effective in hand to hand until their momentum was adjusted and got their feet bearings under them. Shooting yes, but a knife fight? Forget it.

As mentioned by sfPanzer, it's not the same as an unaugmented human landing and fighting. The closest approximation to that is a Guardsmen jumping out of a Valkyrie and then charging, which is pretty well represented by them landing nearby, getting their bearings and then charging in.

 

A Space Marine with Jump Pack is not landing a parachute; they're far more agile than most give them credit for; they're supernaturally fast, with reflexes to match; and their massive strength will make a huge difference in their ability to arrest their momentum and begin fighting properly on the ground; not to mention that it's a pretty well trodden capability for Jump Pack-equipped Marines to simply smash into their enemies at a high speed as an attack.

 

For most mounted units (eg, Custodes Vertus Praetors; Aeldari Shining Spears, Drukhari Reavers, etc), these are also not simply humans. Aeldari are preternaturally fast with similar reflexes; Custodes too, who make Space Marines look like above-average strength/speed humans! The closest Guard unit to these kinds of units is the Rough Riders, who aren't particularly effective: they've only got a couple of attacks and they're not actually all that good in melee - I guess that the enhanced/naturally superior agility/reflexes of the other units makes a huge difference! Huh, whoda thunk it?!

[Interrogator Stobz]

And the humble ‘hero landing’ will prepare you for any melee.

Never mind real life, this is a game.

[Beams]

Remember guys, don't get too upset YET.

 

It's possible that Cultists and Guardsmen will cost 8 points each after Chapter Approved so the very hordes you fear you won't be able to jump over won't be as prevelant on the tabletop.

8 pts for Guardsmen is fine if space Marines are 26.

[Ishagu]

A space marine isn't worth 3 guardsmen. He's hardly worth two in fact. Let's wait and see how CA addresses things.

[BitsHammer]

 

Remember guys, don't get too upset YET.

 

It's possible that Cultists and Guardsmen will cost 8 points each after Chapter Approved so the very hordes you fear you won't be able to jump over won't be as prevelant on the tabletop.

8 pts for Guardsmen is fine if space Marines are 26.

 

Not unless the Marines have as many wounds, attacks and weapon shots as 3 Guardsmen combined.

[USNCenturion]

A space marine isn't worth 3 guardsmen. He's hardly worth two in fact. Let's wait and see how CA addresses things.

Their worth is measured by different parameters. Raising the cost of a guardsman isn’t going to fix the issues that codex marines have.

[MARK0SIAN]

Anyone here ever been in actual hand to hand combat? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could land via parachute or disembark from a APC, let alone some damn flying motorcycle and be vaguely effective in hand to hand until their momentum was adjusted and got their feet bearings under them. Shooting yes, but a knife fight? Forget it.

Look, if we are going to base our characters abilitites on what we can personally do then my Marines are going to be out of breath after running 50 yards, they’ll need to lose some weight and they’d rather watch Netflix than go crusading. And then if they did decide to go crusading they would’ve accidentally dismembered themselves within 2 minutes of grabbing a chainsword :)

 

We don’t play this game because we want characters with regular human abilities and who’s to say what an alien might be capable of.

[Kallas]

Their worth is measured by different parameters. Raising the cost of a guardsman isn’t going to fix the issues that codex marines have.

What is that measure, and why is it different?

 

And if you raise the cost of Guardsmen it would absolutely make Astartes much more attractive, relatively. Although Sisters would still be far superior.

[Beams]

Yeah, I mean, and a Guardsmen is worth more than a kabalite or one less than a sister? Guard dies like flies.

 

If you have trouble killing infantry squads, your not bringing enough Bolters.