Dark Imperium II by Guy Haley

FirstSonofHorus · October 20, 2018

Have you read them?

I just finished DI2. I wasn't hugely impressed. This one does not feel at all like a brochure for Primaris marines, which certain sections of the original did. There is a good variety of forces show, including the SOB. Hwever it really didn't feel like there was any compelling narrative arc. Nothing felt like it had any weight to it. Certain moments were excellent - Gulliman's fish out of water experiences continue to be interesting, but it all felt very disconnected.

caladancid · October 20, 2018

Two comments. First, like the post by @Roomsky I think this discussion is pretty great to have, and one of the reasons I like these forums so much. Second, I do think some of the focus on Guilliman is self-created. When I see comments like yours where people think RG is taking over the output of the fiction being written that seems very false to me because I read a lot of BL stuff and its mostly just not about him.

So I did a quick look by publication date (and some could be wrong) of the 40k books (not Horus Heresy) published in between the two Dark Imperium novels (and excluded books like Of Honour and Iron or even Devastation of Baal where he shows up in the end, but including Emperor's Legion) excluding collections of old books. 26 novels. On a variety of subjects. A mix of both pre and post Great Rift.

Maybe you mean something different and I missed the point. Otherwise I think we are seeing a broader picture of the 40k universe than ever before.

DarkChaplain · October 20, 2018

Yeah, I don't see it either. Guilliman is obviously the star of the Dark Imperium trilogy - it's HIS trilogy after all - but even among Space Marine Conquests, the Ultramarines only got the fourth entry.

Yes, he showed up at the end of The Devastation of Baal - but only because he brought the cavalry late into the war against the Great Devourer. He features in barely two chapters of the book, out of thirty, before which nobody even knew what had happened since Cadia.

Even in Blood of Iax, which is an Ultramarines novel, he is only named FIVE TIMES in the entire book, with 13 mentions of "Primarch", mostly clustered around a certain section, or used in "For the Emperor and the Primarch". He does not make a dent on this book.

Instead of Guilliman-focused material, we had two Inquisition novels post-Cadia, in John French's Horusian Wars series. There was a novel for Blood Angels plus Successors. There was one for the Space Wolves, another for the Dark Angels. There was a Death Guard novel, a Custodes/Terra-politics novel that featured him in the very end, but even after he kicked Greater Daemon butts, he only shortly took to the page in character, mostly to demonstrate his effect on the High Lords, before the story moved on with the Custodian Guard and Sisters of Silence, who were the stars of the novel. We had a Grey Knights novel in Castellan, which is set post-Cadia. Heck, there was a Mephiston novel post-Great Rift as well! Then there was an Alpha Legion vs Sororitas book, and Cadia Stands.

And that's just Imperium/Chaos, there's been an Ynnari novel, with another out next month.

The Guilliman-focus is entirely down to fan perception of the changes to the setting in its advanced timeline, and probably heavily influenced by him getting a miniature last year, and as such popping up on the tabletop. In terms of novel coverage, he stars in two, with two or three tie-in shorts (one from the limited edition of the first novel, if I remember correctly, the other only recently released), and features in a few other more for the impact he brings to established norms than as a big player of his own right.

To complain about Guilliman being front and center of the Dark Imperium trilogy is foolish, in my opinion, considering it is the trilogy meant to define not only the setting after his return and the Indomitus Crusade, but also the trilogy tasked with giving him context within the 41st/42nd Millennium and showcasing him as a changed character from his Great Crusade/Horus Heresy counterpart. It's like complaining that Jaghatai Khan is a big part of Wraight's White Scars books.

Izlude · October 20, 2018

As a RG fanboy, always love to read about him. But yes definitely agree with the above. I will say that I was primarily locked into only HH-related material, RG making his debut in the 41k world has definitely got me in this setting (probably good for BL in terms of making some money) and I am think some of the best books I have read are around this setting with John's and Chris's stuff.

DI has been great minus the obvious Primaris marketing. Re-reading DI I, Felix is soooo dull.....

Ishagu · October 20, 2018

I agree with the above sentiments. We need more books about Guilliman's adventures in the 42nd millennium.

In all seriousness I'd love a novel about what Cawl is currently getting up to.

rookie40K · October 20, 2018

I look forward to a book focused on 40K Cawl as well. It will happen. I’m currently listening to Wolfsbane with 30K Cawl and really enjoying it. Some people complained about that too. I’m actually glad they added Cawl to the story.

DarkChaplain · October 20, 2018

Not having read Plague War yet (currently reading Dark Imperium, actually - a bit late, I know), are there any indications of Cawl meeting Guilliman anytime soon? In DI, Guilliman states their next meeting is supposed to be in person, or at least via hololith projection, to which the Cawl Inferior says it might not be possible.

I'd be mighty disappointed if the third book didn't feature Cawl in a more direct manner, at least.

Speaking of Cawl, DI also makes some minor statements which recontextualize Cawl's "Do It All" reputation within the fandom. For one, it even mentions Cawl studying the Emperor's notes. Haley, through his work in Wolfsbane and in this trilogy+shorts, has done a fantastic job dialing back the more unbelievable parts of the 8th edition fluff, without retconning that they happened. If he doesn't get to write a Cawl novel after DI ends, I'll be miffed.

Triszin · October 22, 2018

At this point I expect the next guilliman/cawl meetup will be Cawl rolling out more tech for the primaris marines.

and they'll probably meet in the vigilus campaign, and be unable to actually get to the planet

Ascanius · October 22, 2018

There's also Robmac's White Scars novel The Last Hunt.

Burni · October 27, 2018

Just finished this and really enjoyed it. As I disliked the Primaris fighting bits and all the time given to Felix in Dark Imperium I was a bit apprehensive but the fighting in this is much better to me. I especially liked the Titan stuff.

But by far the meat of the novel is RG and his dealing with the 41st millennium and I can’t get enough of that, I find it a fascinating subject. There’s some great insight into his thoughts and motivations and the crap he has to deal with.

Typhus is definitely a cartoon villain but Morty gets a little bit more depth (but not by a lot...). Ku’garth is the stand out bad guy once again.

Like many the thread, I was expecting an obvious ‘twist’ regarding a certain character and was pleased that it didn’t arrive.

Overall I found this a great read and much more cohesive than DI. I’m guessing Guy was allowed a bit more freedom on this rather than it being a tie in book to the boxset.

Red_Shift · October 27, 2018

I'm reading it chapter by chapter and I'm about a third of the way through. Honestly I don't find it that compelling so far but it's not badly written, it goes out of its way to explain some of the fluff inconsistencies of guilliman returning. It's just that I was kind of hoping for something unexpected, like a hint at a new primaris unit or a returning loyalist primarch. A single line suggesting, for example, that Dorn lives would get some of us fanboys entertained for yonks with speculation. Same as the last book I find the deathguard bits painful to read but that's just because I don't like them. They seem to benefit from a lot of daemonic shenanigans to get round adversaries but I guess that is part of their shtick. Should be able to finish the book tomorrow and see how it all pans out.

Ishagu · October 28, 2018

The book definitely gets better towards the second half and ends strong.

In Lords of Silence Mortarion says that all the loyalists will return and he even points out that he's annoyed Guilliman was the first to come back lol

A D-B · October 28, 2018

I wouldn't take that little line in Lords of Silence as gospel. At the last Heresy meeting, I couldn't resist teasing Chris that he was being referenced online as the guy who hinted all the loyalist primarchs were coming back. First he had no idea what I was talking about, as he didn't recall writing any such thing. When I explained it, he was mortified in the most charming way (as usual).

Ishagu · October 28, 2018

Lol that's interesting but I already had the feeling it was intended as typical Chaos whisperings

Red_Shift · October 28, 2018

The primaris just wooshed in and saved the day in Tyros and the book is suddenly looking up. Mention of a two hulled gunship, is that the overlord? Loved the description of repulsor tanks crossing the sea, creating furrows in the water beneath them.

pandion40 · October 28, 2018

Didn’t Mortarion say “the few surviving loyalist sons will be found again” which could mean just Guilliman and Johnson as their the only ones we know are alive. To my knowledge we don’t know the fate of the others who survived the Heresy even Vulkan, he may be a perpetual but it’s conceivable theirs something out there that can permanently kill even one of them. So even if someone does take this in character statement as gospel it’s of limited scope.

DarkChaplain · October 28, 2018

Yeah, something like Vulkan giving himself up entirely, wanting an end to his tortured existence, and fighting the pure Waaagh! on Ullanor, with his mind seemingly getting consumed, which is about as close as one can get to getting wiped from existence in the setting. If the Emperor could utterly annihilate Horus' soul with a concentrated bolt of psi-force, then I don't see how the largest Waaagh in history, spearheaded by the primogenitors of the ork clans, wouldn't be able to produce at least the same degree of power and make it seriously tough for Vulkan to reincarnate without a soul to sustain him...

I'll be seriously upset if they decide to bring Vulkan back from this. The entirety of his arc in TBA was leading up to his departure from the galaxy, with his preludes making it very clear that he's made his peace. He should stay dead, having done his part.

mc warhammer · October 29, 2018

well, if that's the quote "few" and "surviving" are key words.

i mean, maybe only guilliman and dorn's other hand will show up

Apothecary Vaddon · October 29, 2018

All the loyalist primarchs? Including the dead ones? Who the heck is saying that?

Roomsky · October 29, 2018

I'd imagine "all" in this case would be somewhere between all sans Sanguinius and Ferrus to all of them period. I've seen theories about Sanguinius returning as a daemon prince and Ferrus isn't far off already, and that's discounting his apparition in MoM. Trust me, people seriously latch onto the weirdest things.

I for one am elated that they may leave well enough alone with just Guilliman.

A D-B · October 29, 2018

Is... is this a joke? Genuine question.

Jesus, I see that stuff everywhere. The constant "The Lion is probably the next primarch release" posts. The "Ways Sanguinius could come back" posts. The "Ways Ferrus Manus could come back" posts. The "Dorn is next" posts. The "Corax is still alive and will be next" posts. The "Russ is still alive and will be next" posts.

Man, I'd love to go a day without seeing them on the electronic interwebbery.

Crucially, I've seen Chris's work being cited as evidence of it, which - in case I wasn't clear - wasn't intentional on his part. I apologise, however, for being a thief of joy and quencher of rumours.

DarkChaplain · October 29, 2018

To be fair, I'd argue that the Lion would be the perfect candidate to bring back next, exactly because his whereabouts are already known to the reader (unlike, say, Corax or the Khan, or Russ for that matter, who up and went into the Eye and could be who knows where, if they even still live) and more importantly already had the role of counterpoint to Guilliman in Imperium Secundus.

We're now basically in another scenario like before, where Guilliman is Lord Commander of the Imperium, seen as demigod by many, and bending the rules not only in regards to his own Codex Astartes but also with new technology, cooperation with Belisarius, Primaris project and so on. He's trying to reshape the Imperium in his image, as his speeches in Dark Imperium highlight - Ultramar is supposed to be the shining example of what the rest of the Imperium should aspire to. Not that he's wrong in that, but he's definitely setting himself up as supreme leader of the galaxy (albeit grudgingly and to the point of cursing his father for various reasons).

The Lion meanwhile did not approve of Imperium Secundus and was considering unleashing his Legion on Macragge and Guilliman, amidst the Heresy War. Guilliman's saving grace at the time was that he did not make a full power play of his own and instead wanted one of their brothers to man the throne - but there is no Sanguinius this time. There is no third brother that could balance Guilliman and the Lion, who have vastly different ideas of how their wars should be fought. They reconciled, yes, but with the Lion having been smacked comatose so soon after Terra, where he almost slew Russ in his grief, just to then also be betrayed by the rest of his Legion on Caliban, including his foster father, I cannot see how he wouldn't be mighty angry at Roboute for all the changes he wrought on the Imperium of Man.

The Lion didn't see the implementation of the Codex Astartes to all Legions. He didn't see the bulk of the Scouring. He didn't see his brothers leave the galaxy. He was one of the earliest to go, in his way, and in a shameful way to his Legion/following Chapters. And now Luther is gone, too, Calas Typhon aka Typhus has been making plays for Caliban and Cypher, whoever he actually is, has been to Terra in an attempt to offer the Lion Sword.

Lion El'Jonson may very well be the military leader the Imperium needs right now - more so than Guilliman, the administrator. Even in Dark Imperium, he is shown to spend his time off the battlefield on restructuring the Imperium, reforming, writing timelines and encyclopedias, planning the remaking of entire worlds. Having him cruise the galaxy to join battles left and right is frankly a waste of his abilities to strengthen the Imperium, when the Lion was a highly capable general and warmaster candidate. But his pride and secrecy would make for exceptionally neat dramatic fuel, even if he and Guilliman didn't come to blows in one fashion or another.

Seeing how the Death Guard are now intertwined with the Dark Angels during the Great Crusade/Heresy via Zaramund and the Legacy of Caliban trilogy, there may well also be a reckoning for them from the Lion and the Unforgiven.

Meanwhile, I would not bring Russ back until after the Lion, should either of them return - because Russ is, for all his flaws and playacting, a pragmatist at heart, and would be knocking some sense into his brothers one way or another. He would be the tiebreaker in what could become an actual schism within the Imperium. But bringing him back first? I don't see what narrative point it would fulfill. Russ isn't what the storyline needs, even with Magnus back in the game. At least not until Magnus actually makes a big move of his own again, though so far, he seems to be content with the Planet of the Sorcerers in real space and the Wolves humbled on their home turf.

Either way, I don't know what was discussed at Heresy meetings or mandated by the studio heads or anything, but the way things stand, looking back over published material and especially Imperium Secundus, there's a good case to be made that the Lion and Roboute's headbutting would continue in the present Dark Millennium, and on a grander scale than during IS. I don't know if there was an active intent to work towards potential Primarch returns and 8th edition fluff, or if it just was how the cookie crumbled with which Primarchs were available in the HH timeline, but at this point I'd be disappointed if those opportunities for conflict within Loyalist lines and differing perspectives on the Imperium's needs was squandered. There's been too much setup, even until recently, to drive the Dark Angels' hunt for redemption forward, to easily overlook the potential there.

Though in the end, I doubt we'll see the next loyal Primarch returning anytime soon. There's probably going to be another Daemon Primarch release, seeing how neither World Eaters nor Emperor's Children had their own Codex yet this edition, but I can't see a full-on advancement of the timeline until Dark Imperium 3 is released and the Ynnari get their (in my opinion inevitable) Codex to flesh them out, seeing how they've had over a century in the open as of now, and would make a great counterpart to the return of the Slaanesh Punks. Right now I'd say there's more reason to stabilize the current setting and flesh it out via events such as Vigilus, and catching up on the former big players, rather than throwing new ones at a wall to see who sticks.

b1soul · October 29, 2018

The little "hints" aren't limited to Wraight's Lords of Silence. There's Ashes of Prospero as well.

Do I think GW has a rollout plan to bring back loyalist primarch A at point X in real-time? Probably not.

Do I think GW might bring back a loyalist primarch or two if they need a sales boost down the line? Yeah, probably...

Apothecary Vaddon · October 29, 2018

Uh, no. Everything I've read has nothing about using Chris' throwaway line as proof that everyone is coming back. Most of the time it's some kind of 'industry' rumor, or using hints in other novels (Ashes of Prospero ring a bell?).

For example; the "ways the Lion is coming back" have been around since way before Lords of Silence, and are largely a function of the fact that multiple codices have pointed out that the Lion's snoring his ass off somewhere in that giant hunk of Rock. The 'Ways Sanguinius could come back' posts largely originated, as far as I'm aware, a little after Rise of the Primarch came out and there were rumors that Sanguinius was coming back floating around on the internet. The 'Dorn is next' posts largely the same (IIRC there were rumors of a Christmas Primarch release that year or the following year).

Corax being alive post-heresy came mostly from the Sons of the Emperor anthology, so people are naturally taking that with Ashes of Prospero to try and formulate an argument for whether he could be next.

Maybe I'm just not reading the same posts as you are, but nowhere am I seeing Lords of Silence being used as the primary and only argument for the return of the Primarchs. Rather it's a moshpit of rumors, bits from books/codices, and just plain old wishlisting.

I'm not particularly miffed or anything about what Chris did or didn't say at some meeting, just pointing out that all these things didn't crop up overnight...they've been around for years at this point, just surprised that you'd think that it was Lords of Silence that was the impetus for the rumors in these cases.

A D-B · October 29, 2018

Man, between here, Reddit, /tg/, and Facebook's various 40K groups, I've seen LoS cited as 'proof' of more loyalist primarchs returning almost as much as I've seen discussion about the book itself. I mean... you're saying you've not seen it, and there's some of it in this thread. It's literally why I replied.

I'm not saying it's the only indication or jokey nod. I'm saying it's not an intentional indication at all, but is being used as a major one in the current PRIMARCHS RETURNING! climate. Hell, I think there are even several YT vids that reference it in the context of the current debate. Otherwise, I totally agree with you. It's definitely a moshpit of wishlisting rather than evidence, but I thought people might like to know one of the major 'proofs' is, y'know, not true.

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