Dakkabots hated

[Frostglaive]

I'd like to give you a scenario here: AdMech vs. Guard, 2000pts. Eternal War, objectives. Not overly competitive, but not overly casual. We're both pretty good players here.

My opponent brings a fair amount of armour, and 4 Infantry squads. I bring a squad of 4 dakkabots, some dragoons, couple neutronagers, and a few Skitarii scattered about. We start deploying, I'm utilizing cover to the best of my ability.... He sets up all 4 infantry squads in the open, rank by rank. Says he has a plan.... so I counter-deploy and set up my 4 dakkabots in the open, my dominus behind them, then proceed to pray he gets Turn 1 on the roll-off... I get turn 1.

The few scattered survivors of those 4 squads all proceeded to fail Morale and run off the board.

Half-way through the bottom of Turn 1, he quits. Still has plenty of armour and heavy weapons left, but he gave up. Then proceeded to sulk and whine at me for playing a broken unit and a hyper-competitive list. Did not want to admit that he made a tactical error right off the bat, knowing what the dakkabots do to guardsmen.

 

He now refuses to play against me unless I do not bring Kastelan Robots. Citing they're over-powered and under-costed.

 

He's not the only one.

 

The local Grot player (not Orks, but Grots. He has a highly converted, and quite stunning looking, army) will literally start yelling when my Kastelans mow down his hordes. A Tyranid player will start sulking the moment his Genestealers and Gaunts get wiped off the table before they can turn 1 or 2 charge me. A marine player, who arguably is a pretty bad player to begin with, refuses to fight them because he claims he doesn't have anything to deal with them (he had plenty of anti-armour before he quit. He is just a bad player). The unorthodox Guard player, despite player an armour-heavy list, gets upset when I bring them. And more.

 

Kastelan Robots are freaking amazing units. They dish out boatloads of firepower, they're pretty darn durable, and they're practically a steal for their points cost. I do try not to abuse them because I know they are great units. I don't run the Cawl Wall, spam hordes of dakkabots, or anything absurd like that. And I don't use Stygies VIII dogma nowhere near as much as I used to. I play competitively at times, but I know when and how to tone things down, even when I use dakkabots.

 

And yet, with how much I've gotten yelled at or ed at for using them, I've actively had to stop running them. Most, if not all, of my local meta knows how to deal with them. They know they should be a priority target, especially if they're infantry-heavy. And yet the second I put them on the table, it's like they just lose their minds and either don't worry about them until it's too late, freak out at me, or maybe actually strategize like they should and try to take them out. Even when I run just 2 bots, or even their close combat variants, I get ed at for it. It's ridiculous.

I'm sick of it. I'm sick of having to tone down my playstyle so heavily because Competitive Player A wants to crush me like a bug or Casual Player B refuses to learn how to beat me properly. I want to use my Kastelans. They're a great all-around unit in a codex where almost half of our rules and units are situational at best, worthless at worst.

I apologize for ranting. But this has been bothering me for quite a while.

 

I would like to know if others in this group have had the same issue as I do and how they deal with it in their local metas.

[Charlo]

"I keep putting my paper in this shredder and... Get this, it's shredding it! I can't believe it. This is ridiculous. How am I meant to use a shredder when it shreds my paper!"

 

That seems to be the mentality of your opponents. They need to Adapt, overcome, survive. No one enjoys a one-sided alpha strike game but it seems as if they are not really taking your bots seriously then moaning when they get whomped.

 

I've used 4 Kastellans in all my Ad Mech games and yes, they are strong and will wipe units, but they aren't unfair. They actually cost a lot of points but deal an apropriate amount of damage. They're tanky but not massively so and they can explode on your own gunline causing some serious damage. Not to mention without CP, Cawl and other investment they aren't even that accurate or can use their nifty double shoot turn one! Not to mention, they only have a 36" range, something that can be avoided. They also turn to nigh useless if they need to move.

 

Maybe just have an honest conversation or offer them tips with how to deal with them?

[Frostglaive]

I've shown my friends/opponents their datasheets. I've explained how I use them. I've told them every trick I know with them. I've made suggestions on how to beat them. I've literally told them EVERYTHING I can about Kastelans. And they still get butt-hurt when I bring them. It is infuriating because these guys are some of my closest friends and my favorite people to actually play 40k with.

 

I've told them all countless times, so long as it's legal, I'll fight literally anything in a game of 40k. You wanna bring an all Forgeworld army? Awesome. Knights in a 1000pt game? Be my guest. Ultra-competitive tournament list? I like the challenge. Silly fluff-based army only following the Rule of Cool? Sweet! I'll do the same.

But heaven forbid if I bring a couple robots to my list! I clearly must be a WAAC player at that point! (heavy sarcasm inserted here)

[ImperialSquishiness]

Recently I find I'm getting moaned St for bringing Knights.

My argument is a) I paid for them, I built them, I painted them, I'm using them. And b) if we have a preorganised game, I will tell you I'm running them. I won't say how many, as that would be giving too much away, but it's up to you to decide whether to field a hard counter.

 

Same with dakka bots. I only have 2, and usually field them in both an admech army and a mixed army. I tend to put out a lot of terrain to make it harder for me to gun line my opponents.

My local meta has a fair few necron players who field loads of bodies, so dakka bots scare them, but it's up to them to use the terrain effectively to prevent me from blowing them away.

The only people that refuse to play me are people I wouldn't want to play against anyway as they spend the whole game moaning and act like spoilt children regardless of the game situation.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, sod anyone that doesn't like your dakka bots, you paid for them, they are your models. Use them as you see fit and if they don't like it, tough. If you tell them how to beat the bots and they don't try it, that's not your problem.

[LT_CLAWS]

As Charlo said, they need to adapt and overcome. That would be like me complaining about the deathguard players in my groups affinity to run large amounts of bloat drones. So what did I do instead of complaining? I ran an Icarus array instead of a neutron laser on one of my 3 crawlers. 

[frosteldar]

I will start by saying I only have 2 thus far and only had an opportunity to try them once, and they are effective.  But I agree with everyone here that it sounds like you are doing all the right things and your opponents are failing to adapt, take on the challenge, heed your advice, or play tactically smart.  You shouldn't let them whine enough that they are only happy if they beat you.  That isn't fun for you.  My suggestion is echoed above, but perhaps it would be good to have an honest chat with them and then offer AGAIN to advise them during the game, tell them when they are making a tactical error, how best to counter them.  If they can't adapt to a friendly local player, they will really struggle against anyone playing competitively in a different venue. 

[Stray]

It's a bit petty.

 

Kastellans are good units - no doubt about that. But Ad Mech on the whole aren't exactly what you'd describe as one of the more competitive armies out there.

 

Any time a player tries to restrict your ability to bring a perfectly reasonable, legal unit, I have to question why they feel that's OK. Holding 'play' hostage so they can have their way and to some degree, tailor your list to better suit them, is not OK in my opinion.

 

I completely understand that someone bringing a highly competitive tournament meta list to a casual setting is probably going to cause upset for some people - and sensible application of the social contract by reasonable human beings should make such occurrences a non-issue in the majority of cases.

You though, aren't bringing a meta list. You are bringing a unit they just don't like, and aren't willing to make the effort to learn to deal with.

 

I feel they're essentially expecting you to make changes until they win, without being willing to make effort themselves? That's a little more immature of an attitude than I believe I'd be willing to deal with, and I don't think you should reasonably be expected to have to either.

[Tyriks]

I'm with Stray 100%. Kastelans are pretty good but they're in a mediocre army. Someone saying they won't play them just doesn't want to try.

[Heliomanes]

I'd bring 8 to my next match just to show them how far they get with that kind of attitude.

[hermanista]

What I've done previously, when I worked at GW, is to make them an offer.

 

Now this obviously comes with the crevat that you trust them, but offer the swap game.

 

They play with your army, you play with there's and show them other ways of dealing with it by playing against your army.

 

Added bonus of playing another army style you might enjoy for future projects.

[Frostglaive]

I give these guys the courtesy of being willing to fight whatever they decide to bring. I may complain about something being over the top, but I'll deal with it. I'll learn from it, ask questions, etc. I simply ask that they do the same, which many of them aren't willing.

 

I've had the same problem with my Knights, but shockingly enough not to the same extent as my Kastelans.

 

I'm at the point now to where I don't even care anymore. Like ImperialSquishiness said, I built them, I painted them, I took time and effort to make them tabletop ready, so I sure as hell am going to use them. If my opponent wants to whine about it because he either doesn't like it or doesn't know how to handle them, then I guess he'll learn the hard way. I'm not going to bring all 8 of mine like heliomanes said (although that is highly tempting...), I'm going to bring them.

Adapt and overcome, get lit up by heavy phosphor blasters, or quit now and get out. Their choice.

[Frostglaive]

I do apologize for ranting and whining about this. This kind of thing just frustrates me in 40k and I see it more than I should. It's one thing when someone brings stuff to be a win-at-all-cost That Guy kind of player. But when someone takes the time and effort to build and paint a model like Guilliman or a Knight simply because they love the model and want to play it, then their opponent whines and yells or outright refuses to play, it's frustrating. Not everyone who brings a powerful model is some WAAC That Guy player.

[Soulhunter1995]

I know how you feel with this Frostglaive :) Back in 7th edition I used to play Chaos Daemons and brings lots (and i mean lots) of Flesh Hounds. Simply because of the fact that I thought they were cool and I wanted to use them. And whilst I never had anyone refuse to play me (it was close on numerous occasions however) the amount of flack I used to get was unbelieveable. 

 

I ended up just continuing with what i was doing and in the end my opponents realized that they were just going to have to get used to me using them, and most of them did. Even now in 8th, I play against a guard player who trounces me every single time due to orders and certain models and whilst i have a moan during the game, I know for a fact that i would never want him to stop using models just because i have either no luck or just stupidly forget to deal with them etc 

 

Keep doing what your doing Frostglaive, they are your models so you should do with them what you wish 

[Marshal Reinhard]

Honestly, in the case of this particular player it doesn't sound like you lost a worthwhile opponent to begin with...

[Tyriks]

His opponent was playing the long game. He DID have a plan all along - set up poorly so the Kastelans look OP so he has an excuse to never play them again. It's the perfect crime!

[Frostglaive]

No, he was just an idiot who thought the Combined Squads stratagem was pure gold.

EDIT: That and I think he was a little bitter that someone young enough to be his grandson outplayed him

[Magos_Adephus]

Been seeing this a lot lately, mostly against Knights. Guy in a new shop near me, twice my age, supposedly been playing the Rouge Trader days, talked a HUGE game, says he’s placed well at all sort of tournies in the area. Refused to play against Knights at all, eventually talked him down to let me play 1 Knight, with a third dude looking for a game allying with me to fill out the list (unoptimised Marines). Wrecked him bad (#noregrets), but he didn’t understand the difference between and armor save and a Feel No Pain.

 

I’ve had a fair few games with a good mix of people, old blood and new. It feels to me that just some of the old blood has gone sour, either cuz they’re just not good players and they’re venting that frustration in a rude way, or they’re so used to calling out cheese that’s its all they see. And as we know, birds of a feather. I’m sorry to everyone who’s local meta is filled with that, its really sucky.

 

But do not be angry at them my brothers, they do not live in the Emperor’s Light, it is their nature. We are called to burn the mutant, kill the alien, and purge the heretic, not hate them. It is not our place to pass judgement, only to execute the Emperor’s judgment.

 

So, for those about to Cheese, I salute you.

[Gaz1858]

Youre always going to get this unfortunately. People spend lots of time building lists, formulating plans etc only to be blown away T1.

 

It happens, especially if you get a bad match up (heavy infantry focus against dakka bots for example). I have done the swap that Hermanista mentioned against a mate that I kept on beating. I used his Drukhari and still won. If theure constant opppnents you could offer it as a learning excercise.

 

But dakka bots themselves arent OP or overcosted. Theyre good but not great and if in double shot a wiley opponent will tie them up on combat. This neutralising them. Thats why I try to have a dominus or cawl nearby to jump in and help

[Ammonius]

I agree with our esteemed colleagues.

Because I myself am an old and bitter person, I wish I could lend you ... say 9 basilisks + 32 dudes to add some indirect fire to your gunline. Few things beat combining "Nowhere to Hide" with "Dear Grid Coordinates..." when you want to give a poor sport something to really cry about.

[Vel'Cona]

I do apologize for ranting and whining about this.

 

Hey, it's your thread and ultimately if someone doesn't like it there are plenty of others to look at (or they can start their own) :)

 

All that being said, I'll weigh in on this one from my own experience.  Honestly, I get where you're coming from with your local 40k community as I'm sure many of us have had similar experiences.  I won't wax philosophical about "WAAC" and "Narrative" players and all of that nonsense as ultimately 40k (and wargaming in general) is meant to be a fun hobby for everyone.  Now, the issue becomes what "fun" means to the individual, with the definition varying wildly.  It sounds like locally your community's fun is "this is the army I picked and these are the units I like, I expect to win with this".  That's certainly fine as I can understand going to the trouble to build up an army and perhaps painting it (never can be sure these days on that count) and wanting to use it as-is, meta be damned.

 

Unfortunately, that just isn't a "winning" long term strategy as rules changes, FAQs, new codexes and especially the annual Chapter Approved can have massive implications on one's chosen army.  What's OP and sweeping tourneys today could see a points hike, a restriction or a seemingly delicate rules change that invalidates it competitively the next day.  With that in mind, flexibility is absolutely the key to success from a purely competitive standpoint.  That means flexibility in unit selection, builds, and possibly even faction if winning is the #1 goal.

 

Now, whether this is the case or not with your local community I can't say, since I haven't played there, but what I do understand is the cognitive dissonance between "this is my favourite army and I want to play it this way, but it's not working!" I've definitely been there more than once, especially during an edition change.  I'm not sure what the solution is, but suffice to say you can chalk this issue up to your opponent and nothing you've done wrong.  Whether it's Kastelan Robots, Imperial Knights, or those godawful Custodes banana-bikes, the meta will shift and change at every level and if winning is one's goal, then we must change with it or accept the self-imposed game handicap of inflexibility.

[synthaside]

This is incredibly Interesting to me ,  In my experience and my meta amongst my club group  and  local tourney, scene kastelan's have become a non-viable option ...
everyone has seen what they do and knows exactly how to counter them as a result taking 2 or more arent justifiable as use of my CP and points .... 

 

We play with large line of sight blocking terrain, often at least 1 large central piece along with at least  2 smaller side pieces and a good density of other cover , we also play that the bottoms of buildings block ( windows and such ) block Los ... just like ITC rules.

With these rules its really easy to hide key units from kastelans  if your opponent forces you to move them to get LOS ,  they hit on 5 unless you spend another CP , it also means locking them in place with their protocol is a real bad idea ... a good player can easily counter them ... tie them up in combat ...  a regular marine player i play charges them with rhino's ....  which means they spend their entire game trying to punch a t7 transport with 0 ap ...  any good Assault unit can bring down kastelans with relative ease but the best way is just to move your units out of line of sight and not even bother shooting them ... its a bit of a trap.

Kastelans are our dedicated Anti infantry, a bit like assault cannon razorbacks, leman russ punishers  Etc .... 

[DanPesci]

Deploys 4 squads of infantry in the open knowing you have a high-volume anti-infantry specialist elites choice????.......yeah its clearly your fault haha.

 

Also....quitting after 4 squads of guardsmen die???!? 

 

Chenkov would not approve.

[Clingy]

they hit on 5 unless you spend another CP

 

 

What happens if you spend another CP?

[Frostglaive]

He's thinking of the Protector Doctrina Imperative stratagem. The problem there is it only works on Skitarii keyword units, Kastelans not having that. If you wanted to beef up their BS by 1, you'd have to spend 2CP for Elimination Volley and have a unit of Destroyers nearby too.

[Clingy]

Ah, for a moment I got very excited thinking I’d missed something!