Siege of Terra - Primarch duels

[Moonreaper666]

Omegon vs Dorn

 

Omegon can sneak into Terra during the Siege

[bluntblade]

Everything about Omegon's appearance in Slaves to Darkness indicated that the Twenty-First Son has had enough.

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Carrion Throne

 

The statue reference? Yeah I think those two will fight :)

[Kelborn]

Everything about Omegon's appearance in Slaves to Darkness indicated that the Twenty-First Son has had enough.

If the rumors are indeed true and Horus found the XXth Primarch, he'd be aware of Omegon and potentially why he broke the dagger.

I'm curious if we will even see the AL in action during the siege at all.

 

I agree with a chess-ish showdown between Dorn and Perturabo would be much more enjoyable. And please let it be done by John!!!!

[SkimaskMohawk]

The scene at the end of slaves to darkness can have multiple meanings. There's absolutely no objective statement that can be made about the alpha legions or omegons disposition.

[b1soul]

Redarding Carrion Throne, I only remember a reference to Khan vs. Mort

 

During the Great Heresy, legend told the site had seen some of the fiercest fighting as Traitors and Loyalists had slaughtered one another for control of the prime landing sites, and even now many of the old stages were revered centres of devotion, hallowed across the millennia and protected by the Ministorum, the original crumbling rockcrete preserved under high vaults, the scorch tracks and mortar craters meticulously tended by armies of slaved menials.

‘Energy spikes detected,’ Revus noted, bringing them into line with the Lion’s Gate itself, its bulk still half shrouded in shadows.

‘Noted,’ said Crowl, working hard. ‘Maintain course.’

The wall now filled the forward viewers, rising like a cliff-edge above the old void stages, its parapets spiked with gun-lines. The immense portal doors, each one over two hundred metres high, were closed and had been for ten thousand years. The two door faces were embossed with beaten ceramite, sculpted into representations of the battles that had taken place. Idealised Angels of Death clashed in bas-relief, their blades glimmering under an accumulated patina of ages. In the very centre, where the immense bosses swelled out, were two greater figures – the Holy Primarch Jaghatai Khan, and a nameless daemonic monster wielding a scythe.

 

Khan vs. Fulgrim was a seminar announcement according to m_r_parker

[mc warhammer]

Redarding Carrion Throne, I only remember a reference to Khan vs. Mort

 

During the Great Heresy, legend told the site had seen some of the fiercest fighting as Traitors and Loyalists had slaughtered one another for control of the prime landing sites, and even now many of the old stages were revered centres of devotion, hallowed across the millennia and protected by the Ministorum, the original crumbling rockcrete preserved under high vaults, the scorch tracks and mortar craters meticulously tended by armies of slaved menials.

‘Energy spikes detected,’ Revus noted, bringing them into line with the Lion’s Gate itself, its bulk still half shrouded in shadows.

‘Noted,’ said Crowl, working hard. ‘Maintain course.’

The wall now filled the forward viewers, rising like a cliff-edge above the old void stages, its parapets spiked with gun-lines. The immense portal doors, each one over two hundred metres high, were closed and had been for ten thousand years. The two door faces were embossed with beaten ceramite, sculpted into representations of the battles that had taken place. Idealised Angels of Death clashed in bas-relief, their blades glimmering under an accumulated patina of ages. In the very centre, where the immense bosses swelled out, were two greater figures – the Holy Primarch Jaghatai Khan, and a nameless daemonic monster wielding a scythe.

 

Khan vs. Fulgrim was a seminar announcement according to m_r_parker

 

 

i really like that passage, but i also like the idea that it might not have happened.

[b1soul]

It could easily be symbolic art...

[Izlude]

Khan vs Fulgrim would be sweet, the two swordsman dueling where one is stoic and economic and the other flamboyant. Would make for great banter between the two.

[b1soul]

Khan's smack talk makes Fulgrim turn purple

[Indefragable]

I am/would be stoked to see more Khan in action. He's a cross between Russ's angry outsider, Sanguinius/Fulgrim's agility, and maybe Corax's strategic acumen*. Definitely underrated...and that's kind of his shtick.

 

 

 

*as in he's good at what he does, using his preferred units and tactics, but perhaps not as good in a Supreme Allied Commander/Warmaster type function

[carlisimo]

Jaghatai vs. Fulgrim was a slight surprise when it was announced, if only because we’re all pretty sure he’ll also fight Mortarion later at the Lion’s Gate Spaceport and we’re not sure how many inconclusive duels we can handle.

 

In the Index Astartes version of the Siege, the White Scars start by harrying the besiegers from the flanks, and the Emperor’s Children leave the siege before long to go do things to civilians. There wasn’t an explicit connection between the two, but there could be. They could change the story to the Vth Legion driving off the IIIrd. I think it’s the best way to make their primarch duel matter… but it would reduce the quality of the overall story. I like that unreliability was a price Horus had to pay in exchange for help from the Chaos gods, and the Emperor’s Children ran off on their own. In Index Astartes, their rampage is what completes their fall to Chaos so it’d make more sense if it were their own decision.

 

Index Astartes also describes the White Scars’ attack on the spaceport. The Death Guard were Horus’s reserve, so he sent them to retake it and the Vth had to try and hold firm. There’s a scene in Brotherhood of the Storm (2012) where Shiban is defending a position and thinking, “I could not imagine us ever distinguishing in warfare of that sort - under siege, fighting with our backs to the wall as the skies burned above us.” Chris Wraight’s been playing the long game. It’s safe to assume the unfinished duel with Mortarion in Scars was also foreshadowing, more or less confirmed in The Carrion Throne.

[Indefragable]

Jaghatai vs. Fulgrim was a slight surprise when it was announced, if only because we’re all pretty sure he’ll also fight Mortarion later at the Lion’s Gate Spaceport and we’re not sure how many inconclusive duels we can handle.

 

In the Index Astartes version of the Siege, the White Scars start by harrying the besiegers from the flanks, and the Emperor’s Children leave the siege before long to go do things to civilians. There wasn’t an explicit connection between the two, but there could be. They could change the story to the Vth Legion driving off the IIIrd. I think it’s the best way to make their primarch duel matter… but it would reduce the quality of the overall story. I like that unreliability was a price Horus had to pay in exchange for help from the Chaos gods, and the Emperor’s Children ran off on their own. In Index Astartes, their rampage is what completes their fall to Chaos so it’d make more sense if it were their own decision.

 

Index Astartes also describes the White Scars’ attack on the spaceport. The Death Guard were Horus’s reserve, so he sent them to retake it and the Vth had to try and hold firm. There’s a scene in Brotherhood of the Storm (2012) where Shiban is defending a position and thinking, “I could not imagine us ever distinguishing in warfare of that sort - under siege, fighting with our backs to the wall as the skies burned above us.” Chris Wraight’s been playing the long game. It’s safe to assume the unfinished duel with Mortarion in Scars was also foreshadowing, more or less confirmed in The Carrion Throne.

 

The short story Restorer gives us hints about the part I bolded as well. Great little read.

[b1soul]

A poster raised the idea of the Khan purposefully diverting/leading Fulgrim and his EC to civilian quarters. If the depraved IIIrd are off torturing civilians, they're not attacking the Imperial Palace.

 

That's a rather dark idea I like.

 

As for a duel, Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince...so a conclusive outcome would be Fulgrim getting banished or Jaghatai getting (surprise, surpise) killed. I don't think GW would let the latter happen. The former is problematic because of how powerful Daemon Primarchs are relative to regular Primarchs, but can be addressed by having the "duel" be some sort of ambush by Jaghatai, with plenty of WS heavy support. Think the withering firepower Perturabo threw into Daemon Angron. Fulgrim's boys would be too busy engaging in depravity to back up their Primarch.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, I could imagine the "duel" be more along the lines of the Khan fighting on his bike, doing repeated hit-and-runs on Fulgrim, leading him away from the wider conflict, before losing him in the warrens of the outer cities. Basically enraging Fulgrim with not being able to catch him, recognising that a straight-up duel will end with Fulgrim slicing him to pieces in a heartbeat, and ending with Fulgrim shrieking in impotent rage before turning his attentions on the civilians nearby.

[b1soul]

It could be more conclusive than that, depending on how much support Khan has. Khan could do to Fulgrim what Pert did to Angron. Fulgrim is almost as about far gone as Angron, so he could walk into a trap if goaded

[bluntblade]

And presumably there'll be Silent Sisters to draw on too.

[b1soul]

Even without support, I don't think Khan would be sliced to pieced in a heartbeat.

 

Guilliman manages to hold off Fulgrim for a while and even do some damage. I don't think Khan would do worse, especially if he enters the sublime state we see in Warhawk of Chogoris. Though I would of course prefer a smarter approach by Khan than "let me 1v1 my Daemonic, Warp-enhanced brother".

 

Trying not to fanboy here, but would love another example of a non-Daemon Primarch using smarts to best or stalemate a daemon Primarch.

[Angel_of_Blood]

 

Now indeed it seemed that the tide of battle had turned against the Emperor. The spaceports were firmly in the grasp of the minions of the Warmaster. Hundreds of thousands of troops poured down from orbit. Gibbering mutants and hideous amorphous Chaos Spawn surged out of the dread ships. Under the banner of the great eye, the sign of Horus, the lackeys of the four great powers of Chaos marched united. Mounted in Rhinos, lurking within mighty behemoths and clinging to the sides of gigantic war-engines, they made their way en masse to the Emperor's palace. 

 

Looking down on the seething sea of foulness, the defenders' hearts went cold. Mingling with the daemons and the mad-eyed cultists and the mutants, they could see heretical Space Marines and traitor Guardsmen. These were people they might have once fought alongside, who had once been as loyal to the Emperor as themselves. They looked upon a dark mirror of their souls. Down there they could see martial honour become berserk madness, human cleverness become sly treachery, hope become foulness and love become abominable lust. The brave men on the walls knew that there was no way out. Here they must stand and fight and die. There would be no mercy from those below. 

 

This was a war where there could be no honourable peace. It was destroy or be destroyed. For a moment all was silence, then Angron strode forth. In his brazen voice he demanded that the loyalists surrender. He told them that their cause was hopeless, as they faced a foe which could not be defeated. They were cut off, outnumbered, and defending a ruler too weak to be worthy of their loyalty. In that moment the men on the walls felt their resolve weaken. Looking at the transformed face of the Primarch who had once been one of the Emperor's finest warriors, they saw an invincible, relentless foe backed by a numberless horde and all the daemonic might of Chaos. 

 

There was a clamour on the walls as Sanguinius and the Blood Angels arrived. Standing on the wall, the angel-winged Primarch glared on Angron with angry contempt. For long moments their gazes locked, each Primarch seemed to be measuring the other, searching for chinks in the armour, for any sign of weakness and lack of resolve. Who knows what they saw there? Perhaps they communicated telepathically, brother Primarch to brother Primarch. The truth will never be known. Eventually Angron turned and walked back to his lines. He told his troops that there would be no surrender; they should kill everyone they found within the palace. No stone should be left upon stone. 

 

I've just always loved this passage from that original short by William King. The idea of this huge mass of an army storming towards the Palace and then stopping, letting the defenders look on in despair, then Angron marching forwards and making his demands. I'd like to see a lot more then from the defenders, the feeling of hopelessness perhaps, many even considering giving up, other resigning themselves to dying in the battle.

 

Then that moment as Sanguinius and the Blood Angels arrive, fill the defenders with hope again. I mean how much more uplifting do you need that basically an actual Angel arriving?

 

And then yeah, I want that stare down, maybe have the telepathic exchange, maybe not actually. Then I just imagine Angron sort of snorting in contempt or similar as he turns away. 

 

I need this to happen still!

[no I'm alpharius]

The Khan Fulgrim fight is set up in the post-Ullanor banter between the two. Fulgrim tells the world what he can do. Khan does not. Khan is more than confident. 

 

I'd like to see him sucker-punch him, basically, and show Fulgrim that he is being sucker punched and hard. 

 

Sanguinus vs Angron should remain a stare-down. 

[Taliesin]

Even without support, I don't think Khan would be sliced to pieced in a heartbeat.

 

Guilliman manages to hold off Fulgrim for a while and even do some damage. I don't think Khan would do worse, especially if he enters the sublime state we see in Warhawk of Chogoris. 

 

Agreed. I think we should not overestimate the difference between daemonic and loyalist. Yes there is a difference but I think a creature as powerful and capable as Jaghatai could make a good go of this if they handle it right.

 

Likewise, as stated early in the thread, we need a great confrontation for Sanguinius where he can really let loose. It does not necessarily have to be another Primarch for me, it's just that Angron is there, and he immediately comes to mind as a potentially superb face off, which with the whole staredown thing, already has some preliminary background. We've had plenty of novels of set up, now it's time for pay-off.

[Red_Shift]

I would like to think that the whole daemon primarch thing is not just a level up but comes with disadvantages that a loyalist could use - the aforementioned compulsion towards excess mentioned with fulgrim that led them to attack civilians rather than the military goals.

[bluntblade]

And the Khan does have Zagyin Arda to call upon.

[Slan Drakkos]

It could be more conclusive than that, depending on how much support Khan has. Khan could do to Fulgrim what Pert did to Angron. Fulgrim is almost as about far gone as Angron, so he could walk into a trap if goaded

except for how Fulgrim not only outsmarted Guilliman but also had the support of his children during their fight. Let's be honest, Fulgrim may be a demented, evil, psychopath, but he always thinks tactically.

 

I personally see the Khan getting wrecked in their duel,and retreating while bragging about having held the EC off long enough for Dorn to reposition a bunch of Custodes and IF. The EC will probably retreat from the withering amounts of overlapping fire and start attacking civvies (probably to try and bait the defenders into making a mistake).

I would like to think that the whole daemon primarch thing is not just a level up but comes with disadvantages that a loyalist could use - the aforementioned compulsion towards excess mentioned with fulgrim that led them to attack civilians rather than the military goals.

It was implied in Talon of Horus that Horus himself had the Emperor's Children attack the civilians. Also, this is chaos, sacrificing humans can be incredibly tactical when done right.

[b1soul]

Well, I don't think your logic flows...as in I don't think the fact that Daemon Fulgrim outmaneuvred Guilliman at Thessala would preclude the possibility that he himself could be outmaneuvred by the Khan at Terra

 

Daemon Fulgrim is intelligent but he has a tendency toward excess, which Khan might be able to exploit. Same thing with most Slaaneshi EC really...

 

As for the Khan bragging after getting wrecked by Daemom Fulgrim, yeah...the Khan could get wrecked, that's not an unbelievable outcome, but bragging about merely holding off the EC would be really out of the Khan's character IMO