mc warhammer Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Even without support, I don't think Khan would be sliced to pieced in a heartbeat. Guilliman manages to hold off Fulgrim for a while and even do some damage. I don't think Khan would do worse, especially if he enters the sublime state we see in Warhawk of Chogoris. Though I would of course prefer a smarter approach by Khan than "let me 1v1 my Daemonic, Warp-enhanced brother". Trying not to fanboy here, but would love another example of a non-Daemon Primarch using smarts to best or stalemate a daemon Primarch. seconded. even powerhouse myths like hercules still had stories where they had to use brain over brawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Even without support, I don't think Khan would be sliced to pieced in a heartbeat. Guilliman manages to hold off Fulgrim for a while and even do some damage. I don't think Khan would do worse, especially if he enters the sublime state we see in Warhawk of Chogoris. Though I would of course prefer a smarter approach by Khan than "let me 1v1 my Daemonic, Warp-enhanced brother". Trying not to fanboy here, but would love another example of a non-Daemon Primarch using smarts to best or stalemate a daemon Primarch. seconded. even powerhouse myths like hercules still had stories where they had to use brain over brawn Agreed, I may have gone a bit far in my hyperbole... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Agreed, I may have gone a bit far in my hyperbole... i don't think you were, personally. and really, the clash could contain almost all the things in this thread. so far, most primarch vs primarch have been 1 round bouts...but the siege goes on for a while. i'd be interested in a series of ongoing encounters between 2 primarchs. kinda like lion v curze but more focused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 A near-death firstencounter against Fulgrim could lead the Khan to revise his tactics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slan Drakkos Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Well, I don't think your logic flows...as in I don't think the fact that Daemon Fulgrim outmaneuvred Guilliman at Thessala would preclude the possibility that he himself could be outmaneuvred by the Khan at Terra Daemon Fulgrim is intelligent but he has a tendency toward excess, which Khan might be able to exploit. Same thing with most Slaaneshi EC really... As for the Khan bragging after getting wrecked by Daemom Fulgrim, yeah...the Khan could get wrecked, that's not an unbelievable outcome, but bragging about merely holding off the EC would be really out of the Khan's character IMO You're not wrong, but even though he is excessive, our last picture of him involves him outsmarting one of the more intelligent primarchs. I also feel like the Khan wouldn't be able to bait him into going out on his own or letting himself get separated from his sons. After all, he knows first hand what happens when a primarch acts radhly and rushes into a fight unprepared *cough*Ferrus*cough*. I imagine less as a brag and more as a statement of how he manages to beat Fulgrim. I image the Khan getting beaten on (though putting up a very good fight) with Fulgrim gloating over him and asking if he has any last words. The Khan looks at him with this wry smile plastered accross his face. He asks Fulgrim how long they've been fighting and when he's told, he looks at something that's off in the distance, turns on his vox, and tells the sons of Dorn to fire everything on his position. Turns out that he was actually using himself and his kids as bait and over the roar of the falling missiles he even says as much before running over to his bike, hopping on it, and just barely managing to escape the blast radius. The White Scars use their superior speed to disengage and retreat under the cover of a truly rediculous hail of bolts, beams, and missiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 @ Slan Drakkos Your ideas are as good as mine... Sounda liks what Shiban did to Cario, except the Khan puts up somewhat of a better fight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 A poster raised the idea of the Khan purposefully diverting/leading Fulgrim and his EC to civilian quarters. If the depraved IIIrd are off torturing civilians, they're not attacking the Imperial Palace. That's a rather dark idea I like. As for a duel, Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince...so a conclusive outcome would be Fulgrim getting banished or Jaghatai getting (surprise, surpise) killed. I don't think GW would let the latter happen. The former is problematic because of how powerful Daemon Primarchs are relative to regular Primarchs, but can be addressed by having the "duel" be some sort of ambush by Jaghatai, with plenty of WS heavy support. Think the withering firepower Perturabo threw into Daemon Angron. Fulgrim's boys would be too busy engaging in depravity to back up their Primarch. It would be an interesting character arc for Khan to suddenly take personal responsibility for the civilians of a world he feels so disconnected from. That would be pretty cool. I can see Khan simply outlasting Fulgrim's attention span. Fulgrim is excited by the possibility of claiming another fallen brother, yet Khan can be like "nice try, bro, but I can go all day! I went 13 rounds with the exemplar of endurance himself, Mortarion!" Likewise, I have the feeling that BL will retcon a death or two (or three) into their arc of the siege and I have a sneaky feeling that Khan would be the one to draw that short straw. <snip> Yea it's such a great scene. Like a scene from a drama or a play, you almost don't need to see the action that happens off screen because the intensity of that moment conveys (almost) all you need to know. I like the idea of the staredown and nothing more. It's a duel of wills in a different way and a more subtle (and powerful?) sort of 1v1. ...that being said, it seems like a foregone conclusion that Must Sell More Models GW would push for fisticuffs between the two. And despite what I just said above, I can't say I hate the idea. It all depends on how it's done. The main reason for a Sanguinius vs Angron battle would be a narrative technique for setting up just how powerful Horus is/show how powerful Sanguinius is (and thus what the Imperium lost through his death). And Primarch cage matches sell. We can't help ourselves and get sucked into them. There could be other ways to achieve the same narrative affects, but this duel is such an obvious one that it's hard to escape it, for better and worse. Well, I don't think your logic flows...as in I don't think the fact that Daemon Fulgrim outmaneuvred Guilliman at Thessala would preclude the possibility that he himself could be outmaneuvred by the Khan at Terra Daemon Fulgrim is intelligent but he has a tendency toward excess, which Khan might be able to exploit. Same thing with most Slaaneshi EC really... As for the Khan bragging after getting wrecked by Daemom Fulgrim, yeah...the Khan could get wrecked, that's not an unbelievable outcome, but bragging about merely holding off the EC would be really out of the Khan's character IMO Yea, I don't really see Khan as the arrogant type. That's more of Russ. Russ's ego is only matched by his actual fighting abilities, and he wants everyone to know it. Khan is less boisterous. Yes, he's disdainful and cocky in his own way, but from what we've seen of him in the HH series so far, he tends to get introspective, especially when faced with the unknowns. He has an intense burning competitive streak to him, but whereas Russ or other Primarchs want to bark as much as bite, Khan is more of a "scoreboard" kind of person who wants his deeds to be far better than his words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 I do think the Primarchs should be shown clashing in more sophisticated now. Apart from anything else, Dorn should be seeing Horus' genius at work behind the enemy's advance as well as Perturabo's. Jaghatai is loose behind the enemy lines while Sanguinius is on the walls. Dorn is the only one at the centre, holding it all together for as long as he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knockagh Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 Primarch duels are probably not something I’m overly looking forward to. Although I wouldn’t say no to some fleet on fleet primarch commanded space battles, or huge scale battles, focusing on the commanders and their decision processes etc. I think the primarchs come into their own as characters primarily through their command abilities. Those sorts of duels can happily keep me occupied for a while but the bash and smash duels are best kept short and vicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 @ Indefragable I doubt GW would surprise kill off any extra primarch at the Siege...there’s more potential profit to be had keeping them around As for Khan in particular, The Last Hunt would imply that the Khan survived the Siege Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 @ Indefragable I doubt GW would surprise kill off any extra primarch at the Siege...there’s more potential profit to be had keeping them around As for Khan in particular, The Last Hunt would imply that the Khan survived the Siege Have not yet read Last Hunt, but I sure hope Khan makes it through. But in the words of every Star Wars character ever: "I got a bad feeling about this..." ******* I think part of the genius of the Primarch project is that the product is both new-age and old-age in its military effect. Primarchs by their nature can understand and interpret the massive quantities of data that 31st millenium multi-spectrum (planetary + orbital + deep space + warp) battles produce. Having one stand in a strategium exponentially increases Command and Control in a centralized way that someone like Mazer Rackham can only dream of. Yet the "old school" ideas of a warrior-king leading from the front, being visible for both sides to see takes things to the next level as well. Not only are they able to personally neutralize an opponent's elite/key units, but they inspire greater courage in their own forces while striking fear into their enemies. A commander would thank the stars to have either one of those on his side, but to have creatures that can do both....simoultaneously?!?!.....is what makes them so incredible. Obviously some lean towards one end of the spectrum a bit more than others, but I think by their nature Primarchs should be in the thick of fighting more often than not. Of course there are situations where they may want to in the rear (like say, commanding the Siege of Terra) or when they may want to be on the frontlines increasing the morale and fighting capabilities of forces exponentially (like say, during the heaviest fighting of the Siege of Terra). I agree that Primarch duels have potential to be one-note and overdone, but I think they are just as important as the command aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Killing off additional primarchs would be a ballsy move with no financial upside. I have faith in GW to maximise profit-earning potential. That's the primary reason for bringing back Guilliman and overhauling Fantasy. Though I agree...nothing is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonreaper666 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Killing off additional primarchs would be a ballsy move with no financial upside. I have faith in GW to maximise profit-earning potential. That's the primary reason for bringing back Guilliman and overhauling Fantasy. Though I agree...nothing is impossible. Omegon could chop off Dorn's hand in the Siege of Terra GW/BL has changed the lore before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie40K Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Killing off additional primarchs would be a ballsy move with no financial upside. I have faith in GW to maximise profit-earning potential. That's the primary reason for bringing back Guilliman and overhauling Fantasy. Though I agree...nothing is impossible.Omegon could chop off Dorn's hand in the Siege of Terra GW/BL has changed the lore before Or perhaps Dorn cuts his own hand off and pimp slaps Omegon with it using his other hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 For my money, there are so many more interesting things to do with Mr "we take the long view" than Roaring Rampage of Revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imren Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 You could argue that AL incursion on Terra and playing cat and mice with IF being a part of siege of terra. or at least a pre-invasion recon mission, I recommend reading preatorian of Dorn, AL trying to shove the middle finger up between the fists' clenched buttocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 i wish that had been the blurb for the book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlisimo Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Slaves to Darkness briefly discusses the recon mission idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAZ_AV_NZ Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 Emperors children abandoned the palace assault and go on a rampage over Terra killing civvies See Talon of Horus that discusses this White Scars come flying in on bikes etc assaulting them So Khârn will have a fight with Fulgrim He could potentially kill Fulgrim ( who is a daemon prince ) who comes back to life in the eye Will be interesting to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 I love the Idea (I think first proposed by Wolf Lord Kieran) that the WS purposefully lure the EC into the civilian quarters, knowing that the EC could not resist abandoning the Siege for some good ol' BDSM play with hapless mortals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Shift Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 Dorn loosing his hand in the siege is a really interesting idea, at least from the point of adding further mystery to his disappearance. Bit of a weird calling card though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted November 11, 2018 Share Posted November 11, 2018 It could even be a side effect of the Scars running interference out in the highways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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