Are Centurions a viable option?

[Guest MistaGav]

The thing is, that doesn't really solve the big problem of them being big, slow, expensive and fragile. They simply need to be cheaper for their stats.

[Captain Idaho]

Which most of us agree with.

[Dracos]

And I’ve become so enamoured with the idea of Primaris-izing the Assault Centurions Im still going to do a squad .... as soon as I can figure a conversion for those god awful looking drills :)

[Guest Triszin]

The thing is, that doesn't really solve the big problem of them being big, slow, expensive and fragile. They simply need to be cheaper for their stats.

I think making them slightly cheaper, and giving them standard marine movement speeds.

add the option for tac squads to upgrade their heavy gunner to a centurion.

 

- then tact sqauds that are objective campers from round 1, would be more inclined to take a centurion

-tact squads that need to move across the board would then, instead of taking a centurion, take a razor back.

[Ishagu]

They need to cost less than half of what they do currently lol

 

I've already pointed out Necron Destroyers who have the same statline, similar firepower but have fly with a movement star in the double digits. All for a bit over 50 points. You could argue they are too expensive too! lol

[Guest Triszin]

They need to cost less than half of what they do currently lol

 

I've already pointed out Necron Destroyers who have the same statline, similar firepower but have fly with a movement star in the double digits. All for a bit over 50 points. You could argue they are too expensive too! lol

how much are they now? ( I play wolves so have no idea)

 

they should just be 2.5 the cost of a marine with a heavy bolter, no?

[Ishagu]

With Las Cannon and missiles they are over 130 points each I think. I'll need to check.

 

Imagine it. a 3 wound, t5 guy with no invul and 4" movement costing more than a Ravager lol!

[Ishagu]

Ok, so just taking a Heavy Bolters puts a Centurion at 110 points!!!

 

They are 155 points with las cannon and missiles. LOL it's so much worse than I had remembered. That's only 9 points less than An Armiger Warglaive! 5 Points less than a Custodes Biker Captain.

 

They need to drop the cost by 100 points or more per MODEL. Utter crap. Do not buy unless CA reduced them to 1/3 of current cost.

[justicarius6]

With Las Cannon and missiles they are over 130 points each I think. I'll need to check.

 

Imagine it. a 3 wound, t5 guy with no invul and 4" movement costing more than a Ravager lol!

Add another 25 to that.

 

You get three destroyers per centurion near as dammit.

[Guest Triszin]

Ok, so just taking a Heavy Bolters puts a Centurion at 110 points!!!

 

They are 155 points with las cannon and missiles. LOL it's so much worse than I had remembered. That's only 9 points less than An Armiger Warglaive! 5 Points less than a Custodes Biker Captain.

 

They need to drop the cost by 100 points or more per MODEL. Utter crap. Do not buy unless CA reduced them to 1/3 of current cost.

I say reduce the points by 60-80, but increase their movement values to a tac squad. Moving 4" is awful, they should only have that move value at 1 hp

[Ishagu]

Worst unit in the entire game? Yep lol

[justicarius6]

Worst unit in the entire game? Yep lol

And they're also one of our only unique units too.

[Race Bannon]

Wasn't 4" movement the average until 3rd edition?

 

Meh, who cares.  Centurions needs help and it's nuts how GW has not seen it yet after all the work they put into making the models.

 

/gripe OFF

[Brother Quixote]

I think we're all agreed centurions are overcosted.  I'm as much a fan of exaggeration as the next man, but I'm glad some of you don't write the rules and points costs.  A ponts drop of 80 would mean you're just paying for the weapons!

 

At the risk of being the voice of reason a drop of their base cost by 30pts would make them much more attractive.

 

It would bring them to more like the cost of 2 heavy destroyers, but with a 2+ save (compensates for less wounds a little), higher strength (very important for assault centurions before you go there), and better shooting (don't forget the omniscope ignores cover too).

 

The movement shouldn't be an issue for shooting (36 & 48" range with no movement penalty) but give them access to a drop pod/transport again and that's assault centurions/shorter range guns sorted.

[Ishagu]

They can't cost more than Destroyers under any circumstance.

 

Destroyers are super fast and can fly over terrain and leave combat and still shoot, not to mention they can be revived easily.

[Panzer]

As I see it we have three rather similar units here. Centurions, (Heavy) Destroyers and Broadsides

 

Centurions:

• M4 BS3+ T5 W3 Sv2+

Heavy Destroyers:

• M10 BS3+ T5 W3 Sv3+ FLY

Broadsides:

• M5 BS4+ T5 W6 Sv2+

 

Now the Centurion costs 23p more than a Heavy Destroyer (or 30p more than a regular Destroyer) and 20p more than a Broadside.

The Destroyer have super useful special rules for such a unit in form of re-rolling 1s and not getting a penalty for moving and shooting with Heavy weapons while Centurions gain the same thing for moving and instead of the re-roll thing which they could easily gain from a nearby Captain they get to ignore Cover. I'd say it's pretty equal on the special rule front. Only the Broadside is left behind here, however for a little bit more points (ranging from 2p to 12p) they can get a support system like for example +1 against FLY, intercepting shots or a 4++ and of course they too can re-roll 1s or ignore cover via Markerlight application.

 

Alright so what else is different. Destroyer can have only one weapon per model while Centurions get to have two main weapons plus one secondary weapon. That means for the same fire power Destroyers have to buy more bodies but that also means they get more wounds (in split pools even) for the same amount of fire power. More weapons per body is better for an alpha strike but Destroyers are clearly more durable despite having only Sv3+.

Broadsides actually have a very comparable loadout to Centurions when we go with Lascannons&Hurricane Bolter vs Heavy rail rifle&Smart Missile System. However they do have twice as many wounds per body.

 

Now when we look at which units get played then we see that Destroyers are part of basically every single list. Probably for being a bit too strong for their cost. Broadsides, especially the HRR variant, get played regularly but aren't a must take so I'd say they are actually pretty balanced. After all a unit being good enough to take regularly but without being so strong to be in every list is the most ideal state it can be in.

Centurions on the other hand get pretty much never taken.

 

 

So after this little analysis I conclude that Centurions need more wounds and a little price drop to ~60 to 65 points without weapons and Destroyers could probably do well with a slight increase in points considering their high movement stat and FLY keyword in addition to being such a heavy weapon platform (don't quote me on that tho since I don't know that much about the internal balance of the Necron Codex).

[Captain Idaho]

Points costs don't have to be equivalent throughout EAC Codex. It's a case of how many points is the unit worth to the army in question.

 

Allies blur the lines of course and that sucks, but GW balances each army largely based upon its solo performance. They've said they cost points based upon worth in an army in the past and there's no evidence this has changed.

 

However, they're currently over costed.

[Panzer]

Hence why I included the last part about how often we see those units in their respective armies. ^^

[Trevak Dal]

 

 

Naw man, bump that. Buy and build and paint. They are a great looking unit to own in a collection.

 

HOBBY FOR THE HOBBY GOD!!

I don't agree on the great looking part but instead I'll agree twice on the hobby for the hobby god part!

Back in 7th I got myself lots of Stealth Suits, Vespid and Pathfinder with Rail rifles ... aka the worst units the Tau Codex had to offer but I just liked them too much. Now in 8th with the new Codex they suddenly all are viable and you can find Stealth Suits in basically every competetive T'au list. Times change but your models stay. Get what you like even if it's not good unless you plan to play only on serious tournaments. ;)

And what I learned is to never have more than 3 of a given unit. As gw will at some point, :cuss you for your choices (ala Deathwing, ala White Scars bike army, ala Crisis Wing).

 

I'm looking at the Khorne Berserkers i have and I'm feeling nervous.

[GreyCrow]

Jumping on the bandwagon: way too expensive

 

Not enough T, not enough W

They are going to melt

As others mentioned, for the same price as the Dakka Centurions, you can have 2 Las Bolter Predators

+2T, twice the wounds.

It’s 80 points for the base Centurion model.

 

80 POINTS !!!

Base Predator is 10 points more only !

For +2 T and 3xW !!

 

I need to find the drug dealer of whoever designed the economics of this edition, because that’s some good stuff he’s got.

 

I work with tons of statistics, I know what happened. They are pricing based on Armour saves.

Geniuses, base your entire economics model on the only statistics that can be negated.

 

Geniuses.

[BrainFireBob]

Based on pricing from the old AP system

[GreyCrow]

Yup

 

Now how the fact that they forgot that they changed the AP system is beyond me !

[chapter master 454]

Also remember the difference between assault centurions and devastator centurions is double trouble.

 

Devastator centurions don't have anything base and have to pay for their main guns and chest guns ALONG with having higher base cost to start with. They literally cost more than an assault centurion base which is something like 20 odd points cheaper and already has their drills attached, no cost added.

 

Their current pricing is based on what they did last edition. So if we could get them down to actual reasonable point costs, that would be great. Also remember one of their weapon options is no longer full power. The grav-cannon lacks the AMP component of the weapon which would also help while we are at it. I mean, their special rules aren't bad to be honest and being an infantry unit that can move around in buildings while hauling a tanks worth of weaponry is their thing (so even while they have a 2+ it does let them get cover or even help try to get objectives on top of buildings) but the problem is they are priced out of reason making crisis suits look well priced.

[Guest Triszin]

hmm, so centurions are basically Repulsor of infantry?

[justicarius6]

So, with the points drop of Centurions (specifically Dev cents) has the consensus changed on the beefy marines?