Lemondish Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 I don't get why first guy didn't add even a single blackshield. Were they detrimental somehow for him or something? I'm forever confused about that myself. It's a free extra attack, and sometimes free movement and protection from being shot just from HI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Black Shields are really good IMO . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Knight Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 I don't get why first guy didn't add even a single blackshield. Were they detrimental somehow for him or something? I'm forever confused about that myself. It's a free extra attack, and sometimes free movement and protection from being shot just from HI. I think it is the wording, not sure if this was ever sorted out but you HAVE to do an intervention if possible. So you could bring your unit into CC when you wanted to fire it next turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 You have to heroically intervene but with proper positioning it can be powerful . They probably weren't aware of what the Black Shield does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 I don't get why first guy didn't add even a single blackshield. Were they detrimental somehow for him or something?I'm forever confused about that myself. It's a free extra attack, and sometimes free movement and protection from being shot just from HI. I think it is the wording, not sure if this was ever sorted out but you HAVE to do an intervention if possible. So you could bring your unit into CC when you wanted to fire it next turn.Sure, but that's actually a major benefit if you're also running a VV. Gets you in combat, where you're safe from shooting and melee. Since HI doesn't trigger unless the enemy is that close, and a unit can't allocate attacks to you if they didn't declare a charge on them, they either have to fall back with their melee unit to shoot you (no other unit would be that close), or accept that you're untouchable that turn. Even though you're in melee now, the VV means you can fall back and shoot. Or you can pop damage on them in melee and teleport homer them out. Lots of cool options. I'm rethinking a few of my Vet teams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidNinja Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Also with heroic interventions you don't need to end up in combat, so long as you move closer to the enemy you have upheld the rule. Not many occasions that you wouldn't want to but still black shields are pretty much an auto take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 Also with heroic interventions you don't need to end up in combat, so long as you move closer to the enemy you have upheld the rule. Not many occasions that you wouldn't want to but still black shields are pretty much an auto take Absolutely true, great point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vigitant Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Point to be made Lemondish, you only have to run storm bolters if you want to. I get a LOT of work done with my 5 man frag cannon teams. They aggregate more damage than the storm bolters over the course of the game. Storm bolters drop and die. Frag cannons are annoyingly difficult to remove. Aside from charging(which has workarounds), I don't see how frags are any more difficult to remove than Stormbolters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Point to be made Lemondish, you only have to run storm bolters if you want to. I get a LOT of work done with my 5 man frag cannon teams. They aggregate more damage than the storm bolters over the course of the game. Storm bolters drop and die. Frag cannons are annoyingly difficult to remove. Aside from charging(which has workarounds), I don't see how frags are any more difficult to remove than Stormbolters. I have at least three bullet catchers in front of my frag cannons, one of whom has a shield. This setup makes it so that the enemy has to kill the entire team to kill the two models I have carrying the frag cannons. Often they will force overkill just to kill the two models. In this setup, I preserve the actual firepower and have a buffer to work with. With the storm bolters, there is no such buffer. Each dude lost is a direct loss of output. And while I do have 2 shields in the unit, often this is not enough to save the entire unit from having half or more of its members slain due to weight of fire. It is only my experience, but my frag cannon teams last longer than my storm bolter team and often do more...though the storm bolters do provide a nice and easy "kill this or take another 37 hellfire shots to the face." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 Point to be made Lemondish, you only have to run storm bolters if you want to. I get a LOT of work done with my 5 man frag cannon teams. They aggregate more damage than the storm bolters over the course of the game. Storm bolters drop and die. Frag cannons are annoyingly difficult to remove. Aside from charging(which has workarounds), I don't see how frags are any more difficult to remove than Stormbolters. I have at least three bullet catchers in front of my frag cannons, one of whom has a shield. This setup makes it so that the enemy has to kill the entire team to kill the two models I have carrying the frag cannons. Often they will force overkill just to kill the two models. In this setup, I preserve the actual firepower and have a buffer to work with. With the storm bolters, there is no such buffer. Each dude lost is a direct loss of output. And while I do have 2 shields in the unit, often this is not enough to save the entire unit from having half or more of its members slain due to weight of fire. It is only my experience, but my frag cannon teams last longer than my storm bolter team and often do more...though the storm bolters do provide a nice and easy "kill this or take another 37 hellfire shots to the face." Full disclosure - I hate the stormbolter/chainsword loadout for reasons completely unrelated to their effectiveness on the table. From a list building perspective, I dislike that you can double the offensive SIA output of a model at a 3 point premium, and on top of that you get a free extra attack in melee. It's the most efficient upgrade point for point that you can give a Vet, and that makes it boring. From a practical standpoint, I hate having to track down the bits. From a look standpoint, I think storm bolters look far too bulky and out of place on power armoured models, and despite chainswords being an iconic space marine weapon, I don't find them to thematically fit a squad of special forces, black ops style marines with advanced equipment. I ultimately just dislike everything about the build, but because it makes Vets super dangerous on the table, I feel compelled to use it. What I wouldn't give for the iconic Deathwatch boltgun/power sword combo to be just as effective on the table for the points. Apologies for the rant. What are the other gents in the unit carrying, my man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 My tried, true, and traditional unit of:5 Vets2 Frag cannons2 chainsword/boltguns1 boltgun/shield Total pts investment of 138. Combined with a Rhino for 72 it makes the total package 210. The same build in the last codex was 205. The other dudes have enough to support a hellfire crossfire, throw out vengeance rounds, or just be there if I need to get a 24" threat range with the frag cannons. I've toyed with shotguns, but I don't have 18 pts to swap all my 3 units of frags from boltguns to shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 Same cost to upgrade em to storm bolters per model as well, it seems, and if you're that tight on points it makes sense not to. Still, my mind looks at boltgun Vets and doesn't stop thinking about how I can shave the points elsewhere to literally double my SIA output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 The trick with that is, I could double my firepower, but when I have frag cannons in the unit, that sometimes do want to advance to get into the perfect position to either get a good shot off or to hustle to an objective, taking storm bolters on the spare dudes is a waste of points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 My tried, true, and traditional unit of: 5 Vets 2 Frag cannons 2 chainsword/boltguns 1 boltgun/shield Total pts investment of 138. Combined with a Rhino for 72 it makes the total package 210. The same build in the last codex was 205. The other dudes have enough to support a hellfire crossfire, throw out vengeance rounds, or just be there if I need to get a 24" threat range with the frag cannons. I've toyed with shotguns, but I don't have 18 pts to swap all my 3 units of frags from boltguns to shotguns. If you don't mind me asking why boltguns instead of storm bolters ? @ LD - no need to be bitter about the storm bolter option... it is one of the good things SM have in general. It cheap to get them via third parties too even with a DW icon on the side. The frag cannon is often seen as quite obnoxious tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 @ LD - no need to be bitter about the storm bolter option... it is one of the good things SM have in general. It cheap to get them via third parties too even with a DW icon on the side. The frag cannon is often seen as quite obnoxious tbh. I mean, my issues with it are clearly with the look and access over the actual affect. I can't really do third party outside of shapeways, since its the only thing that will actively approximate a GW storm bolter, but I have never had a good experience getting high quality plastic from the printers they use. It's always been pretty heavily textured and extremely brittle. But I agree with you completely - it's a pretty minor hang up all things considered. I wouldn't want to trade the power it gives Vets just because I dislike the way it looks and the access. I'm personally just going with Strike Squad storm bolters as I think those at least look slightly less ridiculous. What do you mean by the frag cannon being obnoxious? I enjoy the frag myself, having at least 2 in each 10 man squad where possible, and it looks straight up boss. I'm biased, though - I'm a huge fan of the quintessentially iconic and exclusive Deathwatch items seen in the art. Frag cannons, Blackstars, shotguns, boltgun + power sword, xenophase, infernus, heavy thunder hammers...you name em, if they're iconically Deathwatch, I love em and want them to be more numerous. That's why I like seeing some of these super mixed Vet squads do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 The frag cannon is obnoxiously powerful and I have no problem with it - that is all . I run a frag cannon and an Infernus heavy bolter per vet squad. Note that Sternguard come with storm bolters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 My tried, true, and traditional unit of: 5 Vets 2 Frag cannons 2 chainsword/boltguns 1 boltgun/shield Total pts investment of 138. Combined with a Rhino for 72 it makes the total package 210. The same build in the last codex was 205. The other dudes have enough to support a hellfire crossfire, throw out vengeance rounds, or just be there if I need to get a 24" threat range with the frag cannons. I've toyed with shotguns, but I don't have 18 pts to swap all my 3 units of frags from boltguns to shotguns. If you don't mind me asking why boltguns instead of storm bolters ? @ LD - no need to be bitter about the storm bolter option... it is one of the good things SM have in general. It cheap to get them via third parties too even with a DW icon on the side. The frag cannon is often seen as quite obnoxious tbh. Its a balance of mobility vs. firepower vs. cost. To requote myself just before you posted: "The trick with that is, I could double my firepower, but when I have frag cannons in the unit, that sometimes do want to advance to get into the perfect position to either get a good shot off or to hustle to an objective, taking storm bolters on the spare dudes is a waste of points." I would rather only losing 3 effective boltguns for 3 pts if I have to advance as opposed to 6 effective boltguns for 12 pts. ----- Concerning the matter of frag cannons being seen as obnoxious, they are. My local group hates that I use them. They say that they are a weapon that is far too flexible, and powerful for the quarter it is worth. At the same time, I'm also only running 6. There was a time when I ran 11. They still bitch though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I don't have the points for three frag cannons per squad. Maybe CA will help provide some list flexibility . One thing I really like about the storm bolter versus frag cannon is wounding on 2+ with SIA Hellfire rounds... sometimes quantity has a quality all its own . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 For myself I feel like the Frag Cannons play quite a different role most times than my Stormbolter units. Sometimes they overlap but typically they feel pretty different. I do know the Frag Cannon worth seems to triple for me when I'm playing a Xenos/assault army. I have games with Frag cannons where they seem 'ok' but an assaulty cultist army has had some real frustrations with my multi frag cannon squads. Orks despise them, same as many nids. Against my Tau opponents I often just don't seem to get to use them to their fullest potential a lot. Same with IG. I know for CA we are all hoping for some wide sweeping point reductions, but I really am hoping the Corvus gets some love. There's a few directions they could go with it, but I'm going to be disappointed if it's left largely untouched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 The frag cannon is obnoxiously powerful and I have no problem with it - that is all . I run a frag cannon and an Infernus heavy bolter per vet squad. Note that Sternguard come with storm bolters.Oh, I agree. Yep, Sternguard kit comes with 2, but they look pretty weird and disproportionate to me on power armour. Suppose they look better on the Sternguard since they seem to look a bit bulkier themselves with the tabards etc. @Qui-Gon sorry to hear about your friends complaining about Frag Cannons lol I mean, they're still on a 41 point T4, 1W, 3+ model. It's not like it's a Custodian Guard carrying em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 @Lemondish: That's the exact thing I tell them. Its a 1 wound dude with T4 and a 3+ save. You can literally drown me in saves or force mortal wounds to kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 @ LD - you can always slap two bolters beside each other... that’s literally what a storm bolter is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vigitant Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 When the codex came out I bought 30 storm bolter bits for a few bucks. But, yeah, it can be annoying getting them all put together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAetherick Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Strike marine storm bolters look awesome on reiver bodies. I use reivers for my veterans because I can't stand the difference between old marines and primaris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 Strike marine storm bolters look awesome on reiver bodies. I use reivers for my veterans because I can't stand the difference between old marines and primaris. I should probably start doing the same thing to be honest. Still use the vet arms for it, or just swap hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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