Corvus Fortis Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 NDK is simply a bad unit. It hits on 4+ most of the time, 3+ in melee is okaysh - no more than that, and hammer always bad. 2+/5++, t6 and 12 wounds won't save from anything but lasguns and bolters. GMNDK is one of the best units of codex, if not the best. How they achived it? +1 BS/WS, +1 invuln, rerolls and stratagems for characters. So few was needed to jump from poor unit to the best one. I think, GMNDK and NDK must be the same stats, but GMNDK has reroll and be character, and NDK must be singificantly cheaper. Or, without stat changes, NDK must be so cheap, that he would be disposable. If you just won't feel it, when you lose it, than it there is no problem about taking a couble. With Incinerators (which must be very cheap to), ballisitc won't be a problem and 3+ with swords/fists are ok for close combat, so they will hit hard at least. Balancing Terminators/Paladins duo is more compicated, imo. Their stats are way too similar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5207939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biscuittzz Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Eh I think you may have misunderstood the point of my post. This is to do with points/ cost effective of units that essentially fulfil the same role bar a few minor differences. It is nothing to do with models or what can be made from different kits. I disagree with your idea that the problem is solved by GW allowing us to field the NDK model regardless of what datasheet is used (NDK or GNDK). Reading through your follow up posts shows that you still don't quite get what I was saying from my post. Stating GW need to focus on more practical issues is disingenuous considering internal balance is a very practical issue that needs to be solved. Fixing internal codex balance of individual codexes will go a long way to fix overall balance without GW having to tweek the main rules of the game. I don't know how you can't see that lowering the points of the GNDK without doing something similar or more drastic for the normal NDK is a good option. NDKs are non-existent within the game now. I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying. It's the same point Capt. Mytre implied...you guys are coming from the principle or ideology of what an internally balanced GK codex SHOULD BE. I get that, I simply disagree. This is far from a perfect world, so I chose not to hold the idea of a perfectly internally balance Codex on a pedestal, to use as some benchmark to judge the CA coming in just two weeks. Also, I never said it was good that the NDK and GMDK are unbalanced. If you thought that, you misunderstood the hypothetical that emphasises that imbalances between various GK units - have levels of real-world consequences (financial / time / usage investments etc.) for the player. I'm curious do you guys even have an answer to the hypothetical I proposed? Which GK unit imbalance is the least consequential to you as a GK player? Which one can you accept without any meaningful change? If from what i gathered from both of your posts, have an answer along the lines of: "No, each GK unit imbalance is as important as the other, there are no priorities and GW needs to address each one to equal attention. " Then, I do understand what you were both talking about, but again simply disagree. Imo, fixing certain unit imbalances CAN greatly change the composition and viable variety of mono-GK armies, while fixing others...not so much. That's what I think. And I already know it's to different to you what you guys think. That's fine. Somehow and somewhere you've taken the previous points of imbalance between two similar datasheets in the codex and convoluted it into a strange pseudo-philosophical tangent. My point was simple and discussed the current imbalance between a GNDK and a normal NDK. This imbalance will seem to get worse if the leaks are to be believed that the GNDK is getting a points drop. That is all. Nothing to do with ideology or principles or whatever you were going on about. Your so called 'hypothetical' doesn't even make sense, so is probably why you didn't get an answer on that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5207947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waking Dreamer Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Somehow and somewhere you've taken the previous points of imbalance between two similar datasheets in the codex and convoluted it into a strange pseudo-philosophical tangent. My point was simple and discussed the current imbalance between a GNDK and a normal NDK. This imbalance will seem to get worse if the leaks are to be believed that the GNDK is getting a points drop. That is all. Nothing to do with ideology or principles or whatever you were going on about. Your so called 'hypothetical' doesn't even make sense, so is probably why you didn't get an answer on that. Our best unit gets a points discount (if true) and instead of seeing that as a positive, you've expressed in multiple posts a glass-is-half-empty attitude to that...LAMENTING of how this can become worse for our GK codex....nice one mate. It's clear to see how you've set yourself up for major disappointment in CA, that's where your principle of what an internally balanced GK should be WILL lead you. Don't need to be a prognosticar or philosopher to see that. lol Just because you couldn't comprehend it...doesn't mean it doesn't actually make sense. Your whatever statement shows it was probably beyond you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5207990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvus Fortis Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 The just published SoB faction focus at WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/ SoB will have stratagem which gives their SB for 1 CP -2 rend and 2 Damage. -2 rend. 2 Damage. For 1 CP. In case Daemonic Incursion was not enough for you, Grey Knight players. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronos Darkhelmet Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 The just published SoB faction focus at WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/ SoB will have stratagem which gives their SB for 1 CP -2 AP and 2 Damage. -2 AP. 2 Damage. For 1 CP. In case Daemonic Incursion was not enough for you, Grey Knight players. Fixed to don't use terms coming from non-existing games :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 The just published SoB faction focus at WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/ SoB will have stratagem which gives their SB for 1 CP -2 rend and 2 Damage. -2 rend. 2 Damage. For 1 CP. In case Daemonic Incursion was not enough for you, Grey Knight players. literally just saw this and came here to see if anyone had picked up on it.... Why do they get a double effective psybolt strat for half the cost? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Hmm. I guess by making the 'buffed' nemesis dreadknight an hq, they increase the power and utility while limiting the spamability in theory (if you want to take 1000 points in gmndks you can...) Edit: sisters getting better psybolt, maybe affirmative action? (That is a joke) I think it's on their special weapons squad (...meltagun squad?) So they probably can't give their 20 person squads stormbolters and use this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beams Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 The just published SoB faction focus at WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/ SoB will have stratagem which gives their SB for 1 CP -2 rend and 2 Damage. -2 rend. 2 Damage. For 1 CP. In case Daemonic Incursion was not enough for you, Grey Knight players. literally just saw this and came here to see if anyone had picked up on it.... Why do they get a double effective psybolt strat for half the cost? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 @Beams Correct, ours does affect any bolter weapon. But if anyone is actually using it on a single dreadnought or razorback with a single heavy bolter then you're kinda failing at life... Lol I guess it has the most utility on a stormraven or raider. But again, its farrr more cost affective on a squad of guys and would indeed make it more effective like you said. I didn't think of bs3 ect. Still think ours is too expensive though! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beams Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 @Beams Correct, ours does affect any bolter weapon. But if anyone is actually using it on a single dreadnought or razorback with a single heavy bolter then you're kinda failing at life... Lol I guess it has the most utility on a stormraven or raider. But again, its farrr more cost affective on a squad of guys and would indeed make it more effective like you said. I didn't think of bs3 ect. Still think ours is too expensive though! I don't disagree, I think GKs were a victim. Of being first, and most of there strategems were overcosted. Psybolts should only be 1 CP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinkosh Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 The just published SoB faction focus at WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/06/6th-dec-faction-focus-sisters-of-battlegw-homepage-post-1/ SoB will have stratagem which gives their SB for 1 CP -2 rend and 2 Damage. -2 rend. 2 Damage. For 1 CP. In case Daemonic Incursion was not enough for you, Grey Knight players. literally just saw this and came here to see if anyone had picked up on it.... Why do they get a double effective psybolt strat for half the cost? Just like you, I saw the preview and was straight over here to talk about it. If SoB are getting a 1 CP stratagem to buff the AP and damage and Deathwatch have perma-on special ammo, why in the name of the Emperor are we paying through the nose for Psybolt ammo? Seeing this for the Sisters actually gives me some hope that we might get either a new FAQ or something else in CA19. As it is, 2 CP for +1 Str and -1 Ap just doesn't make sense. Im not even touching on the fact that unlike some armies *coughGuardcough* CP for us is tricky to get. Im starting to think all the savings we make come CA19 will be spent on a Guard battery. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 It's also worth mentioning that SoB are in for a completely new Codex. These are just the beta rules and I'm sure we'll be seeing completely new units for when the Codex drops so even if there's just one unit with max 5 Stormbolter now it's impossible to tell what SoB will have end of 2019. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Mytre Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 I'm fine with them having -2 AP and 2 Dmg, they don't have the same options as us for delivery (Deepstrike and the amount of Storm Bolters available per squad), but the costs should be 1CP for both of us. I'd like to see all characters given "Psybolt Storm Bolters", so that our characters always fire psybolt ammunition and Psybolt ammunition go down to 1 CP and work on autocannons again. Would love to see rifledreads a thing again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danarc Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 I would change title in NO hope. terms at 39 points and PAGK SS no points change. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvus Fortis Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Termies are 39 pts. Another failure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5208993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvus Fortis Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Ok, what do we have here: Apothecary - 75 BroCap - 110 BroAnc - 90 BroChamp - 90 Chappy - 105 Dread - 150 GM - 130 GMNDK - 170 Interceptors - 21 LR - 200 LRC - 200 LRR - 180 Libby - 113 PallyAnc - 98 Pallies - 47 Puries - 19 Razor - 70 Servitors - 5 SR - 192 TechMarine - 55 Termies - 39 VenDread - 85 Stern - 105 Crowe - 80 Voldus - 153 Draigo - 180 H,Incinerator - 19 H. Psycannon - 24 Incinerator - 9 Psycannon - 7 (11 for termies) Psilencer for Termies - 8 Incinerator for termies - 13 Twinlas - 40 Twin MM - 40 Typhoon - 38 ML - 20 Some other SM-wide changes there too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danarc Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 In my current list I save 115 points. Other 5 PAGK. WOW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biscuittzz Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 That's a whole other baby smite. WOW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soder Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Ok, what do we have here: Apothecary - 75 BroCap - 110 BroAnc - 90 BroChamp - 90 Chappy - 105 Dread - 150 GM - 130 GMNDK - 170 Interceptors - 21 LR - 200 LRC - 200 LRR - 180 Libby - 113 PallyAnc - 98 Pallies - 47 Puries - 19 Razor - 70 Servitors - 5 SR - 192 TechMarine - 55 Termies - 39 VenDread - 85 Stern - 105 Crowe - 80 Voldus - 153 Draigo - 180 H,Incinerator - 19 H. Psycannon - 24 Incinerator - 9 Psycannon - 7 (11 for termies) Psilencer for Termies - 8 Incinerator for termies - 13 Twinlas - 40 Twin MM - 40 Typhoon - 38 ML - 20 Some other SM-wide changes there too. Seriously?!.. sigh.. where did you guys see this? Please for the love of god let there be rules/CP cost changes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
STTAB Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Pics of CA are kicking about but are generally being deleted by FB groups soon after going up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_149 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Makes the interceptors even better than strike squads now with only 10 PTS in it (I think?) If it wasn't for the need for cp :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvus Fortis Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Makes the interceptors even better than strike squads now with only 10 PTS in it (I think?) If it wasn't for the need for cp 32 loyal are always at your service. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_149 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Yeah just irritating that they are required but I guess that's the future for definite no messing :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soder Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 And purifiers cost the same as strikes now.. So looks like instead of actually fixing rules/stats/CP costs they just slapped on point reductions on a bunch of things and called it a day. No hope for rule changes at this point anymore I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweetcurse Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Are PL also adjusted? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/350981-little-hope-in-ca-for-gks/page/6/#findComment-5209096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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