New Primaris chapters had me thinking....

[Ioldanach]

It would be really interesting to see what a Primaris only chapter looks like in the rules. Right now, you can opt to build a Primaris only force, but you aren't functionally limited to that in any way. 

 

A Primaris only chapter would need a special rule limiting you to Primaris keyword units, and I wonder what type of bonus they would get to offset that limitation.

 

But the current codex covers all three varieties: pure Oldmarines, pure Primaris, and mixed. They are still Space Marines, after all, and other than the basic differences we see, don't need their own special rules (Chapter Tactics, keywords) to set them apart. I just don't see a need for a Primaris-only codex.

 

I think the key thing limiting pure Primaris armies now is simply the number of models available. GW gave us an initial range, but I doubt that it is the complete planned range for the Primaris Marines. As GW slowly churns out additional models and sprues (e.g., more transports, chainswords for Primaris, etc.), we'll see the options increase to the point where pure Primaris will become a viable option. Hopefully we'll see the salt diminish as the Primaris become more flexible in their options (we'll never see it go away entirely - this is the Internet and a fandom, after all ).

[Lemondish]

 

It would be really interesting to see what a Primaris only chapter looks like in the rules. Right now, you can opt to build a Primaris only force, but you aren't functionally limited to that in any way.

 

A Primaris only chapter would need a special rule limiting you to Primaris keyword units, and I wonder what type of bonus they would get to offset that limitation.

But the current codex covers all three varieties: pure Oldmarines, pure Primaris, and mixed. They are still Space Marines, after all, and other than the basic differences we see, don't need their own special rules (Chapter Tactics, keywords) to set them apart. I just don't see a need for a Primaris-only codex.

 

I think the key thing limiting pure Primaris armies now is simply the number of models available. GW gave us an initial range, but I doubt that it is the complete planned range for the Primaris Marines. As GW slowly churns out additional models and sprues (e.g., more transports, chainswords for Primaris, etc.), we'll see the options increase to the point where pure Primaris will become a viable option. Hopefully we'll see the salt diminish as the Primaris become more flexible in their options (we'll never see it go away entirely - this is the Internet and a fandom, after all ).

I think we're talking about an Ultima founding Primaris only chapter and what that might look like ruleswise, not necessarily a Primaris only codex.

 

Per the rumours, it would be a new chapter with new tactics taking a part in the action on Vigilus. Being Ultima founding, I figured they'd need the chapter rules to only affect Primaris.

[Brother Tyler]

...What if they did a book of pure primaris stuff. So you still have your first founding vallina chapter with the old space marines and a book of the new Primaris only chapters. That would push Primaris and still let ppl have there old style chapters...

  

I think we're talking about an Ultima founding Primaris only chapter and what that might look like ruleswise, not necessarily a Primaris only codex...

OP is definitely suggesting a codex that is only about Primaris. Additionally, the OP's first post might be interpreted as suggesting that the current Codex: Space Marines revert to purely legacy Adeptus Astartes (though this may simply be vague wording and not the actual intent).

[Lemondish]

I apologize, I thought the discussion had shifted. To put context to my comments, I was coming from the perspective of adding rules for a primaris only chapter not a primaris only codex. As I see this would need to be discussed elsewhere, I'll drop the whole topic.

[TempestBlade]

Yea I was saying have a primaris only codex with Ultima founding chapters in there and brother Tyler is correct leaving the legacy marines in the original codex space marines.

[Dracos]

If additional unit types are added a Primaris Codex would be a welcome supplement as opposed to a “true” Codex. Said unit types would still have to be available to a non-Ultima Chapter but I would like to see a shake up in the Organaizational Chart for a Ultima Chapter

 

For instance. Reivers should be moved to the Troop choice slots. Then add an Elite deep strike unit type ... say a variant on Aggressors with a thermal spear equivilant. Fast Attack of Inceptors with paired power fist that get the +1 attack Aggressors should be getting. :( and Sgt gets a power sword option of course because Grav Captain deserves a “jump pack” option :)

[Medjugorje]

The rumour could be wrong aswell.

I find it weird pushing a new chapter when we have plenty others that could use the spotlight...

 

GW has no love for BT !

 

hmmmm......can't see it happening. collectors of long standing chapters would be pissed given the current state of their armies. if it does happen then i would predict that GW would do it only after long standing chapters got new specific primaris units like blood angels having primaris death company or something unique to them. then it would be fair to go full primaris on a new chapter.

I disagree. A new Primaris only chapter taking centre stage for a short bit in the narrative does not affect collectors of long-standing chapters. They can still collect, and are still supported.

 

Getting something new is preferable to a rehash of current things, even if it's just a new piece of the ongoing story or rules for a new chapter.

 

 

In terms of rules they get even more bonusses because there are just Primaris allowed.

 

[Dracos]

All you need a a few new chapter tactics and three primaris specific strategies and boom Primaris supplement twenty five bucks please. (shrug) about as likely as new primaris units ... at least for this year

[Red_Shift]

At the rate gw kills off imperial fists in the fluff they would be all primaris after about a fortnight!

 

If/when gw fleshes out primaris with new releases I would love to see a company and chapter layout.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't think we'll see a Primaris codex anytime soon. There just aren't enough units yet, and GW isn't going to go away from their legacy chapters anytime soon.

[Lemondish]

I don't think we'll see a Primaris codex anytime soon. There just aren't enough units yet, and GW isn't going to go away from their legacy chapters anytime soon.

However, rumours do point to an Ultima founding chapter on Vigilus jumping into the narrative alongside a second wave of primaris unit releases.

 

Probably doesn't mean a new Codex, but it does deal with the issue you had about them not having enough units to fill.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah a campaign book wouldn't shock me at all. I just don't think we'll see a primaris codex for awhile. A new primaris chapter is also something I think will happen I just see the old chapters staying selling points because they have followings

[Panzer]

There already ARE pure Primaris chapters. The new thing here is that one is supposed to be coming to that one specific planet to help defend it.

[Doghouse]

I think the main thing they are missing is weapon options, the lack the traditional special, heavy weapons and close combat weapons is the big hurdle for me. But like I have said before this is more due to all options having to be in the box and the new trend of everything fitting into five man squads and being on two sprues.

 

I also think that the way they introduced them is a little confusing for some people. In 40k terms they are not a new thing, they've been fighting for the Imperium for at least a hundred years now. So in terms of gaming product they are fairly new but in lore terms they are well established and mostly likely would have veterans by now.

 

So I would imagine all Primaris chapters are fairly well established and to the average joe they wouldn't be viewed any different to a chapter composed of purely regular marines. All Primaris chapters are already a thing in terms of lore.

[Warhead01]

I think the main thing they are missing is weapon options, the lack the traditional special, heavy weapons and close combat weapons is the big hurdle for me. But like I have said before this is more due to all options having to be in the box and the new trend of everything fitting into five man squads and being on two sprues.

 

I also think that the way they introduced them is a little confusing for some people. In 40k terms they are not a new thing, they've been fighting for the Imperium for at least a hundred years now. So in terms of gaming product they are fairly new but in lore terms they are well established and mostly likely would have veterans by now.

 

So I would imagine all Primaris chapters are fairly well established and to the average joe they wouldn't be viewed any different to a chapter composed of purely regular marines. All Primaris chapters are already a thing in terms of lore.

I would add to that list. I think they need one or two more vehicles and a flyer. (at least 3 more vehicles.) 

Some hike of light transport, a second tank acting as a battle tank and some kind of flyer filling another role. Maybe like a fighter bomber.  I guess I might think they need an artillery of some kinda as well but I don't know what role it would need to field beyond being an indirect fire weapon. In which case I would think it needs 2 kinds of ammo, one for thinning infantry and one for busting vehicles or bunkers open.

For a main Battle tank I'm thinking a predator on steroids so dual or quad sponson weapons and a fancy turret weapon. 

The transport should also have the fly keyword and have minimal weapons off set by the speed to get the units where they are going. 

I thing giving all the Primaris vehicles the fly keyword is a good idea for continuity with in the Primaris range, if for no other reason.

If a transport vehicle seems out of place I'd have a hope of deepstriking some of the infantry instead. 

That's my wishlist I guess. I guess that turned into 4 kits.  

 

I don't know though, I wouldn't say it would make the SM codex obsolete or directly phase out SM's. But it would be another lock on the IP for GW 4 kits A book, some cards and kits they already make. If costs are minimal they could see how much blow back there is to the future removal of "old marines" and if it didn't look good just stick those units int codex SM.

Even as a campaign book and kits instead of a codex.

 

To the  OP, I'd be for it but I don't see it as a very thick codex. In a way it makes me think of AoS Bonesplitterz. but unlike that army it will need a few more new models to work. Bonesplitterz being built on 2 unit boxes and I want to say 4 character models and a book. Primaris already have more kits than that but still need a few more and a few interesting ways to play them to keep them from being to similar. 

 

 

 

[Lemondish]

I think the main thing they are missing is weapon options, the lack the traditional special, heavy weapons and close combat weapons is the big hurdle for me. But like I have said before this is more due to all options having to be in the box and the new trend of everything fitting into five man squads and being on two sprues.

 

I actually find that to be beneficial. Right now, all Primaris options are mostly exclusive to their platforms. Those platforms even started out with different points costs when they first launched, suggesting that there's will to point them independently if necessary. Hellblasters and Intercessors may wear the same armour, but on launch they didn't have the same base point cost, and it too was also independent of Reivers for a bit. 

 

When you need to adjust the points on Hellblasters, you can do it without affecting Intercessors, because they have previously and could today be separate base point costs. More importantly, you can adjust the points cost of a plasma incinerator without it affecting any other unit or affecting any other version of that weapon. Think of a plasma gun, and how an imbalance in its cost resulted in a variety of weird, undesirable outcomes that have equally undesirable solutions. Plasma Scion squads were too good for what they did at the current weapon's point cost, so now plasma has a different cost based on the BS of the unit (which is BS), making things much more complicated. Adjusting the cost of a plasma gun affects a dozen different units, but if you need to shift the point cost of a plasma incinerator, you're only affecting a single unit, and you're affecting every model in that unit instead of just an optional, potential fraction of it.

 

I think there's value in that. It's a significantly easier way to balance - sadly, it hasn't exactly helped Primaris yet since they suffer from the same overcosting of their baseline defensive stats as any other marine. T4 and 3+ isn't really worth what it currently costs in 8th.

 

So I would imagine all Primaris chapters are fairly well established and to the average joe they wouldn't be viewed any different to a chapter composed of purely regular marines. All Primaris chapters are already a thing in terms of lore.

 

 

Absolutely, but this specific chapter would be unique in terms of game mechanics in that it's meant to be a Primaris only Ultima founding chapter with a rumoured unique chapter tactic and character specific to them. Not only is this important because it would be our first look into the lore of a new chapter taking centre stage in the ongoing narrative (that isn't one of the big four), but it also poses some major questions about how this would work mechanically in the game. One can opt to run a pure Primaris force today, just as you describe - it has existed for over 100 years. 

 

But how does a pure Primaris only chapter look when it is codified into the rules? What machinations would exist to limit it to Primaris only units? What is the chapter's structure, for instance, if other chapters still make normal marines, why does this one opt not to? How does it treat Veterans, and how does it go about recruiting and training if it doesn't run scouts? And for those who identified it as a gap precluding a full Primaris codex, what toys does it now use to fill those gaps on the battlefield? 

 

Personally, I think those are the truly interesting questions, and why I hope that this Primaris only chapter concept isn't just a lore hook. 

[Xisor]

Strictly speaking, it's not inconceivable that they could just say: Intercessors are Scouts and Veterans.

 

As soon as you've had all implants, you're deployed.

 

If you've not got all the implants, you don't get deployed.

 

There's indication that the Primaris technique doesn't actually take anywhere near as long, or with as much fine-tuning in-the-field calibrations as the older technique that needed specific scouts outside of power armour.

 

If that's the case, Primaris Scouts don't exist by necessity.

 

Might be a Wolf Scout deal - but Reivers can do that, with better armour.

 

And as far as Primaris non-transport tanks go - what do they need that isn't supplied by Repulsors or Astra Militarum? ;)

 

Guilliman might be enforcing that division of labour thing that stripped the Marines of their (decent) Navy assets and applying it to tanks/aircover too...

 

(I doubt they'd miss the opportunity to sell some damn cool models though. But lore-wise, it's plausible.)

[Ishagu]

I think the gaps in unit capabilities will be filled with future releases and said units will be retconned into the lore as always having existed in the first place.

[Panzer]

Those are all interesting questions that we'd like to see an answer to but I personally am more interested in the possibility of the campaign containing new Primaris releases. It would be the perfect opportunity with a Primaris chapter on its way.

[redmapa]

I guess we will see whats going to happen this weekend at the Vigilus weekender, I am seriously expecting to see a preview of new marine stuff there.

[Gederas]

And as far as Primaris non-transport tanks go - what do they need that isn't supplied by Repulsors or Astra Militarum?

Not everyone wants to spam Repulsors or play Imperial Soup.

 

Like, Primaris got a frigging super-heavy tank before a legit "normal" tank. Especially because the Repulsor is specifically referred to as an Armoured Personnel Carrier multiple times in the fluff. It's not a tank.

 

[Lemondish]

 

 

And as far as Primaris non-transport tanks go - what do they need that isn't supplied by Repulsors or Astra Militarum?

Not everyone wants to spam Repulsors or play Imperial Soup.

 

Like, Primaris got a frigging super-heavy tank before a legit "normal" tank. Especially because the Repulsor is specifically referred to as an Armoured Personnel Carrier multiple times in the fluff. It's not a tank.

Sure, it's not a tank.

 

Do we need a tank, though, when Guard corners that job pretty well already? I'm not going to say no, but I'm afraid an MBT is pretty boring.

[Panzer]

 

 

And as far as Primaris non-transport tanks go - what do they need that isn't supplied by Repulsors or Astra Militarum?

Not everyone wants to spam Repulsors or play Imperial Soup.

 

Like, Primaris got a frigging super-heavy tank before a legit "normal" tank. Especially because the Repulsor is specifically referred to as an Armoured Personnel Carrier multiple times in the fluff. It's not a tank.

Sure, it's not a tank.

 

Do we need a tank, though, when Guard corners that job pretty well already? I'm not going to say no, but I'm afraid an MBT is pretty boring.

 

 

The Guard does pretty much every job pretty well already. Why have Marines at all? ​

[Boldthreat]

 

 

 

And as far as Primaris non-transport tanks go - what do they need that isn't supplied by Repulsors or Astra Militarum?

Not everyone wants to spam Repulsors or play Imperial Soup.

 

Like, Primaris got a frigging super-heavy tank before a legit "normal" tank. Especially because the Repulsor is specifically referred to as an Armoured Personnel Carrier multiple times in the fluff. It's not a tank.

Sure, it's not a tank.

 

Do we need a tank, though, when Guard corners that job pretty well already? I'm not going to say no, but I'm afraid an MBT is pretty boring.

No, we do not. The Repulsor is a tank whose primary job is transport elite super human infantry into battle and support them in their mission. I would rather the guard keep the vehicle heavy focus whilst we focus on elite power armored infantry.

 

Regarding the Repulsor, it is the quintessential astartes vehicle... It drops from orbit, it flies, it carries decent firepower and it carries 10 space marines. Keep the main battle tank. I would rather focus on more Space Marine infantry units or fast attack Calvary units like bikes or a gunship via the Overlord.

 

Now that we are rumored to get a price reduction on the Repulsor and across the space marine line I may get to squeeze that third Repulsor into my army.

[Xisor]

 

 

 

And as far as Primaris non-transport tanks go - what do they need that isn't supplied by Repulsors or Astra Militarum? ;)

 

Not everyone wants to spam Repulsors or play Imperial Soup.

Like, Primaris got a frigging super-heavy tank before a legit "normal" tank. Especially because the Repulsor is specifically referred to as an Armoured Personnel Carrier multiple times in the fluff. It's not a tank.

Sure, it's not a tank.

Do we need a tank, though, when Guard corners that job pretty well already? I'm not going to say no, but I'm afraid an MBT is pretty boring.

 

The Guard does pretty much every job pretty well already. Why have Marines at all? ​:rolleyes:

Now we're getting somewhere!

 

---

 

Stepping back a bit, I'd remind you folks I'm saying what I said from the PoV of lore itself.

 

Guilliman isnt supreme master of the Adeptus Astartes (though he might write his own name badge to that effect...), he's Lord Commander Guilliman Guilliman of the Imperium.

 

To that effect, Guilliman is *in the lore* very much playing Imperial Soup. (And apparently spamming Repulsors.)

 

(Guilliman leading Ultramarines seems unnecessary, save for the Victrix Guard. And even they aren't necessary.)

 

But on tabletop, obv. things are necessarily different, and the meta underpinning the tabletop does indeed suggest tanks and things.

 

But it's an interesting challenge: what could be added to Marines that isn't any of:

1- Existing Marine Vehicles

2- Treading on Astra Militarum treads re:utility large scale - no Russ/artillery/flamer/baneblades

3- Treading on other Imperial forces (Assassins, Scions, Custdoes, Sisters, Sisters)?

 

I think the only sensible options are (in my *very* limited imagination):

- heavy Land Speeder (the aforementioned MkX transporting mini-repulsor, and possibly heavy-gun variants - chunky Land Speeders with Lastalons maybe?)

- heavy hover tanks of the Land Raider/Repulsor quality.

- Plastic Primaris Thunderhawk

- Plastic Primaris Super Tanks (Baneblade-ish size, very distinct visuals)

 

So you can go either way on that second one, with all-guns Repulsor, and also lesser with stripped down "dedicated" Transport Repulsor.

 

In terms of models, you can play about with them a lot. Assume they have the CA Land Raider utility - stripping out bits and bobs to replace, maybe even with the variety that the Rhino has (or more).

 

But what does that yield in tabletop that:

1- keeps Primaris interesting

2- keeps them unique/distinctive

 

Annoyingly, Primaris infantry are super simple in datasheets, yet vehicles are bloody messy with they're endless variants and orkishly bolter on dakka. I'm not sure I'd recommend that 'going forwards'.

 

And there's no reason to *stick* to the tropes of the lore when breaking new territory. Guilliman could just have Cawl rustle up some fancy grav-Russes with Primaris inside. Or some newfangled octo-puncher hover-walker,like a Space Marine Talos/Cronos!

 

Primaris Outriders riding Grox.

 

Have at it.

 

But the decisions have consequences. I'm curious and excited to see where they go.