Struggling with variety.

[Morticon]

Hi guys. 

So, reaching out to the board to brainstorm some ideas. 

I don't want this to turn into another "marines are suck" thread - despite me fully believing the heart of my issue is because of a poorly designed core codex (SM). 

What i'm looking for is solutions.  

For those that know me, I love playing dynamic lists with a lot of tactical flexibility and variety.  I don't usually go gimmicky lists.  

That being said, I'm REALLY struggling with variety. 

I'm playing a list I enjoy, and I think out of about 6 games I've played with it so far, I've lost 2 won 4- But no really convincingly, despite facing lists that weren't optimised. 

The issue is, however, that I cannot build a list that doesn't automatically gravitate towards the exact same build. 

For information sake, i'm rocking this as a *core*

 

Brigade:

 

Smash Cap

Mephiston*

Sang Priest*

 

5x Intercessors

5x Tacs - lascan

5x Scouts -bolters, HB

5x Scouts -bolters, HB

5x Scouts -ccw, axe

5x Scouts -ccw

 

8x DC - 2 Hammers, JP

8x VanVet - Hammer, Swd, 5Shields, JP

1x Venator *

 

5x Dev - ML, LC, HB, Cherub

5x Dev - 2LC, HB, Cherub

Quad Launcher

 

Tarantula

Tarantula

3 Inceptors - Plasma* 

____________________

 

Now, the units that I have * on, are literally the only ones I feel I can play around with. The rest I feel are almost necessary. 

The venator is rarely successful for obvious reasons (he's the only tank there), and the scorpios is slightly more successful although this drastically reduces the amount of AP i need in a knight/Russ heavy environment. 

The DC I want to change out for VV, but dont have the built models at the moment. 

But, that aside....what else!? 

I cant get anything that i feels comes close to contending with the tougher lists out there.  This is a nice all-rounder list...but, it's not going to be a tournament winner. 

What else can I work with that plays to BA strengths, has good CP and maintains competitive edge?   *baring in mind im a BA purist* So i wont be inducting guardsmen into the list.  

(and Is that the problem???)

 

[The Unseen]

You already answered your own quesion unfortunately.

 

If your serious about remaining a purist in this edition, that list is pretty much as solid an all rounder list you can make.

You could drop the intercessors for more scouts, and the choice between vanguard and DC is basically a personal feel thing.

 

Pure BA I think manage to scrape into the mid-tier of codexes by the skin on our fangs thanks to a few of our best strategems and characters, but you aren't going to get much better than that.

When you compare a pure BA list vs say, one with BA and nothing else but 500 pts of guard for board control, bodies, and volume of fire, it isn't even close, and the mixed Imperium list gets better the less BA you add, until you get the command detatchment with mephy and 2 captains with a bunch of CP to fuel them with.

[Arkhanist]

 

I cant get anything that i feels comes close to contending with the tougher lists out there.  This is a nice all-rounder list...but, it's not going to be a tournament winner. 

 

What else can I work with that plays to BA strengths, has good CP and maintains competitive edge?   *baring in mind im a BA purist* So i wont be inducting guardsmen into the list.  

 

(and Is that the problem???)

 

In short, yes. With the changes to wounding and AP, the meta has definitely swung towards some extremes - mortal wound spam, hordes of dirt cheap troops, or super tough big guys, and usually some mix of the 3 to maximise key strats. Marines haven't fared well in the change, they are not as tough or capable of damage output to compete. The recent change to Fly I think has also been crippling for some of BA's strongest tactics, and the lack of strats/traits that apply to vehicles (unlike later released codexes) also hurts.

 

I wouldn't even try to run a competitive mono minimarine BA list right now unless you want a real challenge, you're running at a substantial disadvantage. Going heavy on primaris can work better, but they too are struggling. We may see some improvement in CA, but I think the problem is more fundamental than points alone. Mono anything is at a strong disadvantage right now, the synergies of soup are just too good, with the possible exception of orks.

[Morticon]

You already answered your own quesion unfortunately.

 

If your serious about remaining a purist in this edition, that list is pretty much as solid an all rounder list you can make.

You could drop the intercessors for more scouts, and the choice between vanguard and DC is basically a personal feel thing.

 

Pure BA I think manage to scrape into the mid-tier of codexes by the skin on our fangs thanks to a few of our best strategems and characters, but you aren't going to get much better than that.

When you compare a pure BA list vs say, one with BA and nothing else but 500 pts of guard for board control, bodies, and volume of fire, it isn't even close, and the mixed Imperium list gets better the less BA you add, until you get the command detatchment with mephy and 2 captains with a bunch of CP to fuel them with.

 

That's tragic game design on an epic proportion, sadly :( 

[Arkhanist]

GW have always aimed their games at the beer and pretzels crowd - a hobby, rather than just a game - and to be fair, I'd say the majority of games are played more for fun than in a strict competitive environment. 8th was an attempt to simplify to bring in new players.

 

They are making a lot more effort now towards balance with CA, the big FAQs and watching how tournaments play so it's a lot better than it used to be, but it's a tough row to hoe with so many variables and a playerbase that takes the flexibility for narrative (i.e. allies) and bends it to the limit. I think shadespire is their attempt at a truly balanced game, and kill team is proving popular as a quicker variant of 40k that strips out a lot of the more abusable stuff.

[Panzer]

A common misconception tho is that beer&pretzels gamer don't care about balancing and winning. We just don't min-max the heck out of each list and don't care about following each rule 110% when the situation is not perfectly clear. ^^

[The Unseen]

Casual players care just as much about balanced rules as hardcore competetive players.

I'd argue even more so.

If your playing 40k as a beer and pretzels game, and you get your teeth kicked in because the ruleset is busted, you just don't want to play anymore.

Whereas the competitive types it's just a challenge, or something they can exploit themselves potentially.

It isn't hobbyist gamers buying a new army everytime the top dog changes.

Hobbyists deserve good rules too.

 

But to elaborate, marines in general don't have what it takes to take on the best armies, much less multiple at once.

 

Bringing a marine list capable of handling 200+ infantry in a reasonable # of turns will leave the list crippled when your opponent drops an army entirely composed of T7-8 units like a knight list.

So you have to split the difference, and probably lose vs both

[Arkhanist]

I think 40k is mostly balanced, if you're reasonable about army composition and are prepared to bend or houserule ambigious situations to make the game run smoother. It's when you crank the rules and units until they squeak that small differences make a big impact on the table, especially with the natural swinginess of I-go-u-go. Much as we would wish otherwise, 40k is not a super tight ruleset.

 

Casual players care about the game and winning too of course - but it is about more than just winning with the most ludicrous list you can put together from 3 books, and mono BA can't compete at that level well, and marines are overpointed for their effectiveness.

[Jolemai]

Banner shenanigans perhaps? A Company Ancient can work well with your firebase and a Sang Ancient can do the same with your jump troops.

 

Have you considered a Flyer?

 

Would an anti-meta list work well for you, or perhaps a classic list like Razorspam?

[Panzer]

Bringing a marine list capable of handling 200+ infantry in a reasonable # of turns will leave the list crippled when your opponent drops an army entirely composed of T7-8 units like a knight list.

So you have to split the difference, and probably lose vs both

 

Honestly that's the case for pretty much any army tho. 200+ infantry and lists composed entirely of T7-8 models are the two opposite sides of the spectrum and so will always hard to deal with with an allcomers list. Only some armies have the means to deal with both types well, mostly due spamming S7 AP1 D1d3 shooting. Those weapons used to be the optimum of both worlds in 7th and are in 8th again. You won't be able to deal with tanks as well as you would using Lascannons and you won't be able to deal with hordes as well as you would using Assault cannons, but you deal with both well enough to be able to win against them.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Hey Mort,

 

Here is a list I've been having a bit of success with.

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [120 PL, 1998pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Brother Corbulo [5 PL, 94pts]

 

Chaplain [5 PL, 81pts]: Inferno pistol

 

Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 96pts]

. Scout: Sniper rifle

. Scout: Missile launcher

. Scout: Sniper rifle

. Scout: Sniper rifle

. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Sniper rifle

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol and boltgun

 

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol and boltgun

 

+ Elites +

 

Company Veterans [8 PL, 151pts]

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun

. Veteran Sergeant: Combi-plasma, Power sword

 

Death Company [16 PL, 175pts]

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe

 

Death Company [27 PL, 341pts]: Jump Pack

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power fist

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power axe

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]: 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant

. Two assault bolters: 2x Assault bolter

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Predator [9 PL, 196pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Twin lascannon

. Two lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 128pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 128pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

 

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

 

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [120 PL, 1998pts] ++

 

 

Basically turn 1 I pop smoke and advance the rhinos up the board. The Razorbacks sit on objectives help build a perimeter to keep deepstrike at bay and I spend 2 CP to forlorn fury into cover, or I don't. It just depends on the need.

 

Corbulo activating off attacks in combat with re-rolls from the chaplain are really strong. Not to mention it makes wounding T8 on 4s a thing, and T4 on 2s.

 

I run company vets because plasma + 3 attacks that re-roll misses and can generate more attacks is a very smooth combo for this particular build.

 

Hopefully it can give you some inspiration.

[Prot]

Hey Mort.

 

My friend plays a lot of BA ( not Gagan) and last night he just about (shockingly) tabled my Custodes. I should preface this by saying we’re werent playing cut throat lists.

 

What he’s been using lately that I find interesting is two blobs of DC with fists and a Chappy. What a great anti horde unit. But I’d say the unit that continues to impress me is that Libby dread. It’s such a pain in the butt. I find it to be a great support unit and still has great punch and is so unpredictable with access to that fly power I think it takes time to really master though. For quite a while he put it up there too early, and now he uses it properly with a mixture of support and counter punch and/or mortal wounds at a crucial time.

 

You can’t blame anyone for at least one smash Captain. What a great unit ( with strats he has taken down 3 Vertus praetor bikes of mine from full health on the charge... insane!)

 

The scout synergize so well with some tactical support for these games giving him a very respectable footprint considering the amount of elite units he uses at 2K. I think his dual battalion really maxes out those great strats that BA have while stil leaving enough points for a decent fire base.

[keeblerartillery]

Hey Mort,

 

I figured I'd chime in since most of my lists have been based on your experiences. I played several games with a brigade and have now decided to go double BN. Mostly to give myself flexibility, even though I am using almost the exact same units.

 

I am sticking to a strictly infantry list for the most part, with a fire raptor on occasion. I've found that using rapier laser destroyers are sufficient anti tank, while scout bikes and bolter inceptors are great screen clearing. I think the key is finding a hammer that doesn't require as much support as DC or SG. And I think you did that with VanVets. I've been experimenting with 2x8, each with a sang priest as support to decent effect. I rely on my shooting much more, but think the tactical flexibility, tougher primaris/biker bodies and general synergy work well.

 

In short, we aren't going to be the best. But I think you should stray a little from some of your units and see what feels right!

[Charlo]

If you feel like you need all that CP, then I think it's hard to make the Brigade much more different.

 

It might be worth looking into a double Battalion instead, freeing up a lot of those needed slots. You'll need 4HQs but there are cheap and useful options.

 

As Jol said, the banners may be a great idea (even the relic one) for that 5+++ and making the most out of your marines. SG ancient has a jump pack to keep pace too.

 

For BA I think it's best to play them as a mobile, shooty force but always remember charging is a GOOD option. I think it's why our Primaris are standout, they're as good as any others but also get a bonus to another phase of the game. The access to power swords making it even moreso.

[Xenith]

It's a weird thing that marines generally underperform competitively.

 

Since 3rd. they were always, consistently outclassed by Xenos. The only time I remember them being on top was during 5th ed with Pedro Sternguard combi spam, Vulkan melta lists, or Calgar/Lysander tag teams.

 

In 6th/7th, the company/demi co was on top with pure staying power - like 30 Obsec units?

 

Marines truly lack the focussed damage output that other armies can have, which leaves you with their tanking ability.

 

I do believe that their biggest strength is that 3+ save, which has been somewhat neutered by the new AP rules. They still have their resilience, especially with 2w primaris.

 

I'd consider flooding the board with as much power armour as possible, and units to boost their survivability (FNP banner, etc).

 

I havent played in a while so I might be way out. Finding the balance between the anvil of bodies and the hammer of elite killers would be the hard part. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

It's a weird thing that marines generally underperform competitively.

 

Since 3rd. they were always, consistently outclassed by Xenos. The only time I remember them being on top was during 5th ed with Pedro Sternguard combi spam, Vulkan melta lists, or Calgar/Lysander tag teams.

 

In 6th/7th, the company/demi co was on top with pure staying power - like 30 Obsec units?

 

Marines truly lack the focussed damage output that other armies can have, which leaves you with their tanking ability.

 

I do believe that their biggest strength is that 3+ save, which has been somewhat neutered by the new AP rules. They still have their resilience, especially with 2w primaris.

 

I'd consider flooding the board with as much power armour as possible, and units to boost their survivability (FNP banner, etc).

 

I havent played in a while so I might be way out. Finding the balance between the anvil of bodies and the hammer of elite killers would be the hard part.

Dont forget GKs were the best army in 5th. BA was strong for a while. Wolves have been consistently above average.

 

Super friends have been a thing since allies came back because of bloated rules that weren't intended to overlap.

 

What has made marines strong in previous editions wasnt so much the resiliency of the marines themselves but tanks in 5th followed by drop pod assault with the ability to null deploy.

 

Then in 6th it was the ability to be army wide T5 and always having a save. That combined with strong characters and bad rule designs, like 1 T5-6 model tanking 100% of shots only to pass off wounds on a 2+ etc. Exacerbated by free units and the ability to take armywide grav.

 

Then we have to think. 5th edition ended almost a decade ago and marines in some form or another have been fairly consistent and strong throughout that tenure.

 

Since we've moved to 8th, it is definitely an edition that hasn't been kind to all Adeptus Astartes, not just a piece of them. Losing things like AP5 bolters, and hellfire rounds didn't do our marines any favors, being 1 wound with garbage cover save rules and no real way to circumvent first turn shooting i.e. night fighting turn 1 etc. And GWs theory to try to shorten games has really hurt marines also.

 

This is somewhat washed over in casual settings because you can still handle certain games fairly well, but when your opponents are bringing knight allies with daemon primarchs or having -3 to hit flyers etc. It only shows the glaring weaknesses of marines in the casual setting harder than Imperial soup in the tournament scene.

[Charlo]

Alpha Strike is what made my BA strong in 7th and is a playstyle that I gravitated towards. When supported by fast & shooty units like Grav Bikers & Storm Ravens for a 1-2 punch we were able to make a solid dent turn one and present a lot of targets so that our combat elements were able to advance with less attention. Believe me, no one is targeting the DC units when 3 Dreads are in their face along with a full Flamer Tac Squad and some Suicide Assault Squad Melta just blew up their "Big-Gun". Yes, I was running 5-7 pods every game

 

However, 8th all but killed this gameplay. Dreads are disallowed from normal pods, 9.01" deep strike bubbles, AP change & Template removal all contributed to my 7th ed army being unusable. As such i'm yet to play the boys in red for 8th outside of a massive apoc game, where any take-aways are fairly inconsequential.

 

As codex creep as well and truly kicked in I'm not sure where to go to be competitive. I think there is at least a half decent answer available in our codex (and by extension added FW sauce) but it'll take some real cunning stunts from any commander to pull off.

 

I think CA will be the make or break for us, though with the previews we've seen for it so far - I'm not optimistic.

 

TL;DR - Charlo misses the Flamer Template 

[Xenith]

 

 Then in 6th it was the ability to be army wide T5 and always having a save. That combined with strong characters and bad rule designs, like 1 T5-6 model tanking 100% of shots only to pass off wounds on a 2+ etc. Exacerbated by free units and the ability to take armywide grav.

 

Heh, you reminded my of the glory days of the BA 5th ed codex with 6th ed rules and Corbulo's 3+ armour, 2+ feel no pain, 2+ look out sir saves and reroll 

 

I think Mat Ward just wrote a good codex in general.

 

Are the screens still as necessary now that T1 9" deepstrikes have been knocked on the head?

[Charlo]

 

Are the screens still as necessary now that T1 9" deepstrikes have been knocked on the head?

 

When they're cheap, provide CP and hold objectives theres no reason not to take them still. You just get an extra turn to position them even better!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well here's the thing. you keep screens because you can't hop over them when assaulting, which is blah. The main thing is keeping turn 2 beta strikes from happening. Guard with their 60-100 footies congalined around their tanks so you can't assault them is kind of gross to deal with. Prepared positions is great for guard players, especially if they are running 8-10 tanks ontop of that almost 100 boot on the table screen to keep you from getting to the plasmacutioners, wyverns, and all the other LoS ignoring 4d6 shots with shred. Now they just got better against marines when they already had the advantage. 4 hand flamers for a guardsmen is still too cheap. i hope they do go up to 6 Hf's per model.

But then we look at something like Exocrines who really don't care about +1 saves because they are AP -3 doing 2-3 damage per turn hitting on 3s possibly re-rolling 1s and are heavy 12. So a T8 12 wound monster with a S7 Ap -3 D2/3 and you can take two for under 430 points. Then combined with the ability for a monstrous 3++ T7 model that's ap -4 D3 with mortal wounds added to 6s that's also hitting on 2s S8 and has a 40" or better movement really makes you want more from marines in general. And you have smite for days. reliabe smite because the Neurothropes get to re-roll 1s in the psychic phase. AND you are -1 to all non Bug Psykers!
 

The fact Kraken gets to advance on 3D6 and pick the highest, plus disengage and assault in the same turn leaves so much to be desired for a melee centric marine army. 

Anyhow, going back to BA. Its an uphill battle. T4 3+ doesn't mean anything any more, which is kind of wild compared to how it used to be. And the only really good Astartes are Death Guard, because Emperor are they resilient. And they have really cool stratagems. The biggest let down is you only ever maybe see 1 squad of 5-10. Because Poxwalkers. Taking primaris would be cool but their transport is as much as a gallant. And the damage output isn't nearly as good as a Galiant.
 

i've played 4 of my last 9 games with BA and I have struggled against each opponent. Mainly because There aren't a lot of answers to take on a Knight, Mortarion, 2 daemon princes of nurgle and Typhus Followed by Bloat Drones that just hang in cover. You only have so many Lascannons/knight allies. Getting into combat against mortarion or a knight now is terrible because they are screened by 2-3 squads of 15-20 pox walkers. And you don't have very many reliable sources to take them out, because you can't jump passed the screens anymore, so you have to make a decision on your priority. And let's not talk about playing against Tau. Woof. 

About the only games i've had major success with as far as playing BA against DA/SW/SM Minor success against Death Guard. 

 

i love tactical TDA and they have proven to be just as weak as assault TDA. I love Las/Plasbacks; There is almost zero reason to take Las/Plas anymore because you'll nuke your razorback if it fails its overcharge on a 1. 

I'm sorry I need to real back this tangent. Main part of the story is I've had some success with things. DC dread, Libby Dread, Corbulo + footy DC + Chappy and a few other combos, but the feel of BA and marines as a whole right now just seem to be missing something.

[Bonzi]

Sometimes you just need to burn it all down and start from stupid to relearn an army. I make it a point to feature new/unused units in every non-tournament list I run.

 

I've run a squadron of three dual heavy flamer Landspeeders because their rule gives then huge range. They were expensive, but I cant tell you how frustrated a Knight player gets when their Armiger Hellverins get tied into combat turn one and spend the rest of the game backing out only to be recharged again and again and again.

 

A techmarine walking behind a dual Storm Cannon Leviathan dred was also good fun.

 

15 Sanguinary Guard, a Sanguinary Ancient with the FnP banner, and the Sanguinor made a big splash.

 

A Baal Pred with flamers played stupidly aggressive was underwhelming but fun and unexpected for my opponent.

 

I'm looking forward to a pair of Rhinos, each loaded with a quad heavy flamer dev squad and a Tactical squad with plasma/Combi plasma.

 

I want to make a walking bunker built around Intercessors and agressors backed with Smash and a FnP banner.

 

I want to resurect the old Blood Rodeo bike list to see what happens.

 

Sometimes in the course of being stupid, you get so far outside the meta that the meta doesn't really work against you anymore and you might just have fun doing it.

[Charlo]

Some great points Bonzi, and a few ideas i'd like to try out there myself!

 

I think however while some of this is "anit-meta" and unexpected, the general performance of the units overall and just plain overpriced/ underpowered means even these niche and quirky ideas will only go so far in a competitive environment such as Mort's.

 

Going back to the problem at hand... And to avoid the "marines suck!" talk even more...!

 

Doing a quick battlescribe I can see you're playing at 2K points, if you take away the units that you aren't sold on this leaves you with 600 points to play with. Now, how attached are you to the Brigade? By running two Battalions instead you only lose out on 2CP (13 vs 15) and it frees up your options considerably, as you won't be locked into needing 3 HS/E/FA - thus freeing up points to experiment a bit more. I imagine those Tarantulas most likely aren't pulling their weight aye? However you will need 4HQ, but this is fine and workable.

 

With the build you've got, I think some Inferno Pistols certainly wouldn't go amiss. You can sprinkle these around your other units to take chunks out of vehicles that may otherwise be a problem and overall make the sum of your anti-tank harder to deal with - especially in the age of multi-targeting. The cheapest HQs you can get a SP, Techies and Lt. While techies don't have a place in this list, the other two certainly do. A Priest and Lt supporting the Vets could work wonders with their auras and heals.

 

Add in a company banner to this too (relic!) for 5+++.

 

I think aswell, you probably need one more assault unit to hit critical mass. Even if this is just another copy of the Vanguard - I've heard you sing their praises before and think they're a hidden gem with the shields.

 

Maybe I'm going totally along the wrong lines... Who knows!

[Morticon]

Shot to all for the feedback so far!! 


The issue ive found is that I wind up needing good fire support and that pushes me towards Devs and batteries-  and then all i need is 111 points for 3 tarantulas (which never make their points back/pull their weight per se - BUT do get placed on objectives and as a result, help claim).  Those 111 points are close to any other HQ i would use, so, the double battalion vs brigade debate becomes moot for me :( 

Maybe I need to experiment with even more aggressive lists -  and throw in Banner for the 5+++ - I'm just not seeing enough to break through what i'm facing.  But, will definitely give some of the suggestions noted here a try. 

I've not yet played with SG every game I play against an opponent leads me to believe theyd be completely wrecked were I fielding them.  But, maybe I'll give it a go. with the priest as well.   

Re: razors - with the way weapons work now, and the fact that we cant reliably negate the heavy shots from lascannons and ilk, razors with a paltry 10 wounds is just a no-go for me. 3 lascannons means either a dead Razor/Rhino or maybe 3 devs dead max.  It just doesnt add up in this system.  

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Shot to all for the feedback so far!!

 

 

The issue ive found is that I wind up needing good fire support and that pushes me towards Devs and batteries- and then all i need is 111 points for 3 tarantulas (which never make their points back/pull their weight per se - BUT do get placed on objectives and as a result, help claim). Those 111 points are close to any other HQ i would use, so, the double battalion vs brigade debate becomes moot for me :(

 

Maybe I need to experiment with even more aggressive lists - and throw in Banner for the 5+++ - I'm just not seeing enough to break through what i'm facing. But, will definitely give some of the suggestions noted here a try.

 

I've not yet played with SG every game I play against an opponent leads me to believe theyd be completely wrecked were I fielding them. But, maybe I'll give it a go. with the priest as well.

 

Re: razors - with the way weapons work now, and the fact that we cant reliably negate the heavy shots from lascannons and ilk, razors with a paltry 10 wounds is just a no-go for me. 3 lascannons means either a dead Razor/Rhino or maybe 3 devs dead max. It just doesnt add up in this system.

This is my thought process as well. Why take a pred when a Leman Russ is so much better?

 

I find myself in the exact same boat. The best non allied options I've come up with is TacLas to act as psuedo devs because of the rule of 3. I think if I had sicarians I would run 3 of those.

 

Something to ponder, Aggressors are T5 and pump out an absurd amount of shots. That might be an option over a tarantula.

 

I take lasbacks because of the rule of 3, and because I need to deviate some of my opponents target priority. But also to have protection against small arms fire for back objectives to lessen the risk of deep strike through conga-lined tanks.

 

Since we don't really have reliable chafe in Astartes armies without allies.

 

I've been thinking about trying out some storm talons since they have strafing run, but they still bubble over 200 points with lascannons. But I do think that is a decent option since Ork Hordes are going to be a pain to deal with in the future.

 

But preparing for 120+ models and a deepstriking gorkanaught that can assault on 3d6 leaves some to be desired. With effective shooting. And the fact knights are still really powerful I'm holding out for CA 2.0 to alleviate some of the overcosted units there are.

[Bonzi]

Shot to all for the feedback so far!!

 

 

The issue ive found is that I wind up needing good fire support and that pushes me towards Devs and batteries- and then all i need is 111 points for 3 tarantulas (which never make their points back/pull their weight per se - BUT do get placed on objectives and as a result, help claim). Those 111 points are close to any other HQ i would use, so, the double battalion vs brigade debate becomes moot for me :(

 

Maybe I need to experiment with even more aggressive lists - and throw in Banner for the 5+++ - I'm just not seeing enough to break through what i'm facing. But, will definitely give some of the suggestions noted here a try.

 

I've not yet played with SG every game I play against an opponent leads me to believe theyd be completely wrecked were I fielding them. But, maybe I'll give it a go. with the priest as well.

 

Re: razors - with the way weapons work now, and the fact that we cant reliably negate the heavy shots from lascannons and ilk, razors with a paltry 10 wounds is just a no-go for me. 3 lascannons means either a dead Razor/Rhino or maybe 3 devs dead max. It just doesnt add up in this system.

The honest answer here is that if you're playing ultra competitive, your options are always going to feel stiffled and repetitious. There aren't secret units out there that you haven't heard about...you know what BA has that's in that top tier. Eventually if you follow that rabbit far enough down the hole your BA army will be two smash captains and mephiston in a Command Detatchment allied with Guard and Knights.

 

I would encourage you to look at your 'must have' units and ask why? In a marine army there are huge amounts of redundancy and different units that can fill the same role in a different way. If you want to change things you need to start with your 'must haves'.

 

The truth is Marines have problems and GW isn't really building the game for mono armies to be competitive at the top tier. They've said the allies system is working like they want. Chapter Approved may help, but if you must have that extra 1% of efficiency, your going to continue to be limited in choice.