Morticon Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 " Eventually if you follow that rabbit far enough down the hole your BA army will be two smash captains and mephiston in a Command Detatchment allied with Guard and Knights."That's exactly it- and why I'm not wanting to go there. Back home I play in what I would call "strongly competitive" environments - not necessarily "ultra competitive". The issue is, more so not being able to deal with above averagely strong lists - Knights + IG, IG + IG and Eldar. And not even ultra-comp, ultra-fine-tuned lists. We all know the problems here, and I think just part of me was hoping I had missed something. "I would encourage you to look at your 'must have' units and ask why? In a marine army there are huge amounts of redundancy and different units that can fill the same role in a different way. If you want to change things you need to start with your 'must haves'."For sake of discussion and interest to readers, I'll actually take the time to unpack that here. HQ: * Smash-Cap is a no-brainer. No need to unpack that. * I mix up the HQs- but Mephy pulls his weight well, and being a libby I like him. I'm often torn between him and a libby on a bike- but for an additional 16 points, I feel the 2+ save and the S10 and the extra attack are worth it. * The Priest works well to buff the fighty units (though, to be honest, im very rarely getting this off). He's worked to bring back wound son characters and bring back models from the dead. TROOPS: This is maybe where I can see some change that would affect the whole list design. Scouts are cheap. Id love to have more intercessors, but they just dont bring enough to the battle. ELITES: * Vanguard have been the best unit in my list in every single game. Their 3++ means they stick around longer, and in all honesty, this fact alone shows me how important the shooting/cover dynamic nonsense change has been in 8th. The only change I would make here is to add more. They fill the BA roll of being able to make use of a bunch of strats, and make the biggest use of the BA "chapter tactics". There's very little reason to not include them, and I dont see a better use of points in their role than them. * DC have been underwhelming. The units that is the most hit/miss. I'm happy to replace with more VV or try something else. HEAVY:Happy to change the Devs out for something i feel can put out reliable damage like they do and still make use of cover and not be monstrously gimped by one or two heavy weapon shots. For 130, the 2xLas,1xHB (or ML/LC/HB combo to make use of strats is too good to ignore). FAST: ASM are worthless when for a few points more I can have access to more weapons, more attacks and 3++ - arguably one of the biggest let downs here, so I'm not gonna consider them. The tarantulas are Brigade fodder. But, happy to look at Scout Bikes or Inceptors.That's where I stand at the moment. I'm going to try something around a few razors and Jumpers, but, will have to see how that goes!! Will keep people posted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5191893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 What are you using your CPs on that means you won't consider a double Battalion and Vanguard/Spearhead? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5191931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I think it's going to be a difficult task to add variety to a list that already reflects the distillation of effective units. I think your opponent's lists will also reflect a lack of variety - as you say, some weird mixes of Knights, IG and Eldar. What about attacking this from the other end and making a more unique army by having less variety of units? Distil down the 'most effective' units even further, albeit at the expense of tactical flexibility: Like 2x supreme command detachments and 10 smash captains? 100 intercessors and FNP banner? 50 Vanguard? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5191932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I think it's going to be a difficult task to add variety to a list that already reflects the distillation of effective units. Pretty much this. If you boil an army down to their most effective units none of them will have much variety. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5191945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Unfortunately BA players could play 2250-2500 of pure astartes and still lose to some 2,000 point lists. That is a problem. They've already addressed they are looking into rewarding single faction armies over taking allies. They also said they are happy with the allied system. I believe forgeworld is a partial answer because sicarians are what our predators should be already. Look at your dark angels Mort. Almost every single competitive build is a castle hellblaster blob protected by a banner, Azreal and talon master. Then 3-4 scouts and 2-3 dev squads. With minor deviation from that template. All of our lists revolve around a variation of a template. It is frustrating to be a 40k player who is constantly reminded to just take allies of "x" and "y" the same thing goes for the 40ktubers that don't seem to grasp that concept. I wish I had a better answer for you that didn't go off on a tangent. My best advice is hold our for a few more weeks so we can see how CA 2.0 changes the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5191970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I'd say try adding rhinos/razorbacks to the list. Company vets with stormbolter / chainsword are actually not bad due to flexible wargear (same logic as with vanvets). I saw a list at the ETC running triple vindicators that scored really well. Although the offensive point efficiency is very low, the ability to snipe stuff and do mortals is very useful and they are a cheap T8 platform/distraction canifex, making sure your other stuff surives. Not convinced of them for BA, but something worth noting. Libby dread is very strong with the dmg 4 warlord trait and drains less CP than Mephiston. You can quite reliably take out a knight only spending 1-2 CP on the combo, but it does struggle with spell denies. I'd throw it in as a top 3 unit in the codex. I have had a lot of success running him and Mephiston in the same list with mirrored powers (with unleash rage as the third power on Meph, he will buff and smite/deny until the libby dread goes down or vice versa. Does no allies include assassins? Culexus are so useful in power armor builds. Stalker is worth looking into another 100ish point t8 veichles, but a bit meta dependant. Personally i have found it best dealing with high toughness in the fight phase and focusing 70% of the points in anti infantry/scoring and durability. Lots of units with mixed in stormshields makes it tricky to focus stuff down, and cheap veichles can help out slowing down hordes, especially t8 ones. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5191982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzi Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 " Eventually if you follow that rabbit far enough down the hole your BA army will be two smash captains and mephiston in a Command Detatchment allied with Guard and Knights." That's exactly it- and why I'm not wanting to go there. Back home I play in what I would call "strongly competitive" environments - not necessarily "ultra competitive". The issue is, more so not being able to deal with above averagely strong lists - Knights + IG, IG + IG and Eldar. And not even ultra-comp, ultra-fine-tuned lists. We all know the problems here, and I think just part of me was hoping I had missed something. "I would encourage you to look at your 'must have' units and ask why? In a marine army there are huge amounts of redundancy and different units that can fill the same role in a different way. If you want to change things you need to start with your 'must haves'." For sake of discussion and interest to readers, I'll actually take the time to unpack that here. HQ: * Smash-Cap is a no-brainer. No need to unpack that. * I mix up the HQs- but Mephy pulls his weight well, and being a libby I like him. I'm often torn between him and a libby on a bike- but for an additional 16 points, I feel the 2+ save and the S10 and the extra attack are worth it. * The Priest works well to buff the fighty units (though, to be honest, im very rarely getting this off). He's worked to bring back wound son characters and bring back models from the dead. TROOPS: This is maybe where I can see some change that would affect the whole list design. Scouts are cheap. Id love to have more intercessors, but they just dont bring enough to the battle. ELITES: * Vanguard have been the best unit in my list in every single game. Their 3++ means they stick around longer, and in all honesty, this fact alone shows me how important the shooting/cover dynamic nonsense change has been in 8th. The only change I would make here is to add more. They fill the BA roll of being able to make use of a bunch of strats, and make the biggest use of the BA "chapter tactics". There's very little reason to not include them, and I dont see a better use of points in their role than them. * DC have been underwhelming. The units that is the most hit/miss. I'm happy to replace with more VV or try something else. HEAVY: Happy to change the Devs out for something i feel can put out reliable damage like they do and still make use of cover and not be monstrously gimped by one or two heavy weapon shots. For 130, the 2xLas,1xHB (or ML/LC/HB combo to make use of strats is too good to ignore). FAST: ASM are worthless when for a few points more I can have access to more weapons, more attacks and 3++ - arguably one of the biggest let downs here, so I'm not gonna consider them. The tarantulas are Brigade fodder. But, happy to look at Scout Bikes or Inceptors. That's where I stand at the moment. I'm going to try something around a few razors and Jumpers, but, will have to see how that goes!! Will keep people posted. I feel your pain on that. The sheer uphill struggle that it is to face some far more basic list from a different army is disheartening. Now that you've laid some things out I'll try to point you at a few specific things. #1. You're spot on with the Death Company. I've never really seen them perform consistently well. They've been tonned down so much that unless you list is built around them and includes Lemartes, I don't think they're worth it in our very competitive Elite slot. I'll suggest Sanguinary Guard as something you might try. #2. Inceptors could have a great place in your list. Especially if you drop them in with Smash for rerolling ones before he flys off to wreck face. #3. Consider a Leviathan Dred with dual Storm cannons. 2+,4++ T8 is no joke and the 20 shots it kicks out at a BS2+ is murderous. This guy can create a 24" dead zone where your opponent can't go until he deals with this guy. He even intimidates Knights and especially Armiger's. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5192055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhanist Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 If you want horde mulching i.e. Infantry Guard, the leviathan with one or two grav bombards is also worth a look - I think it's one of the best anti-horde guns in the game due the extra shots against bigger units, and is still effective against heavy units too due to the extra D. Does need to survive to get its points back, so needs some support and/or other vehicles to take the heat off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5192072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 Great insights and thoughts coming in on this thread. Thanks to all for contributing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5193270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 #3. Consider a Leviathan Dred with dual Storm cannons. 2+,4++ T8 is no joke and the 20 shots it kicks out at a BS2+ is murderous. This guy can create a 24" dead zone where your opponent can't go until he deals with this guy. He even intimidates Knights and especially Armiger's. Just saw the stats on him and bought him right now! Thanks for pointing him out. Will see how he rocks. Don't know if he'll be worth the points, but still looks like a fun unit to have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5193272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted November 17, 2018 Author Share Posted November 17, 2018 If you want horde mulching i.e. Infantry Guard, the leviathan with one or two grav bombards is also worth a look - I think it's one of the best anti-horde guns in the game due the extra shots against bigger units, and is still effective against heavy units too due to the extra D. Does need to survive to get its points back, so needs some support and/or other vehicles to take the heat off. Surely the other gun is better with a straight 10 shots? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5193285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiegel Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Hi, I’m not an experienced player but I found a pure blood angels list for myself that is fun to play, feels halfway like blood angels and is able to win. Although I never played against Guard, this list won against 150 Orks and against 3 big Knights with marine support. None of my units was especially good for their points at what they should do (except the smash captains), but together they worked great. Every unit was designed either for Anti Tank or Anti Horde. While I haven’t played with the new rules, this list might even benefit from them, as everything except the DC and 1 smash captain starts on the board (and maybe the inceptors). Double Battalion 2000 points 2 smash captains, Meph, Lieutenant with PF/JP 2 Las Tac Squads, 1 Intercessor Squad, 3 Scout Squads 2 AC Razorbacks, 2 Las Razorbacks AB Inceptors 10 DC/JP + 2 Power swords 2 Dev/ Cherub, HB, LC + one with ML and one with PC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5193339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
keeblerartillery Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Here is a pretty thorough report from a guy that brought almost pure BA (he had one knight) at a tourney this side of the Atlantic (or Pacific...seeing as you are in China now). He is running double BN and has a semi-unconventional list. Might be of interest to you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5193355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzi Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 If you want horde mulching i.e. Infantry Guard, the leviathan with one or two grav bombards is also worth a look - I think it's one of the best anti-horde guns in the game due the extra shots against bigger units, and is still effective against heavy units too due to the extra D. Does need to survive to get its points back, so needs some support and/or other vehicles to take the heat off. Surely the other gun is better with a straight 10 shots? The biggest thing about the grav variant is that it has no cap. Vs large blobs you're looking at 6 and 7d3 shots. The straight 5 damage vs large targets is nice too but you'll only get a single D3 for those targets. The reason I take the Stormcannon is it's 100% reliable in it's shot numbers and it has the best range. It's more likely to be able to sit still and rock a BS2+ while hitting targets. It's also the best vs smaller elite infantry units and monster hunting. It falls behind vs Superheavies and hordes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5193373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother_b Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Here is a pretty thorough report from a guy that brought almost pure BA (he had one knight) at a tourney this side of the Atlantic (or Pacific...seeing as you are in China now). He is running double BN and has a semi-unconventional list. Might be of interest to you! Did you miss a link? I'm interested in reading about his experience. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5193556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
keeblerartillery Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Hmmm...thought it posted. Let's try again: http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.com/2018/11/warzone-atlanta-game-recap.html?m=1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5193574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted November 19, 2018 Author Share Posted November 19, 2018 Hmmm...thought it posted. Let's try again: http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.com/2018/11/warzone-atlanta-game-recap.html?m=1 must be nice to play with actual LOS blocking terrain <_< :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5194168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonzi Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Hmmm...thought it posted. Let's try again: http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.com/2018/11/warzone-atlanta-game-recap.html?m=1 must be nice to play with actual LOS blocking terrain <_< :P My gaming group has decided it's a must have for there to be at least three large terrain features that completely block LoS in any game in addition to numerous buildings big enough for at least troops to hide behind. Area terrain is great, but cover saves don't mean what they did in 7th. Playing on planet bowling ball in 8th....well you can usually call the game after turn 1. Playing without such terrain may be a reason why you're struggling with unit variety. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5194203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherTim Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Here is a list that I have had some good success with recently. Give it a shot and let me know what you think. I am considering substituting VVets for the DC after reading your comments above though. The MVP in this list is the scorpious. Remaining stationary it gets to fire twice in the shooting phase at two different targets. When paired with a capt and LT he can chew through a lot more than you would think. ++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [140 PL, 2000pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + Armoury of Baal: 1 additional Relic of Baal, -1 CP + HQ + Captain [6 PL, 129pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord Captain [6 PL, 129pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Hammer of Baal (replaces thunder hammer), Thunder hammer Chief Librarian Mephiston [8 PL, 145pts]: 1. Quickening, 2. Unleash Rage, 6. Wings of Sanguinus Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts] . Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun + Troops + Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts] . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts] . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts] . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts] . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout: Boltgun . Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun Tactical Squad [5 PL, 74pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine (Special weapon): Flamer . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol and boltgun Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts] . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon . Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol and boltgun + Elites + Death Company [18 PL, 192pts]: Jump Pack . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword . Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword Relic Whirlwind Scorpius [12 PL, 215pts]: Scorpius multi-launcher Sanguinary Guard [20 PL, 175pts] . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Power fist . Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Power fist + Fast Attack + Assault Squad [6 PL, 113pts]: Jump Pack . Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Plasma pistol . 2x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword . Space Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun . Space Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]: 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant . Two assault bolters: 2x Assault bolter Scout Bike Squad [4 PL, 75pts] . Scout Biker: Twin boltgun . Scout Biker: Twin boltgun . Scout Biker Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Twin boltgun + Heavy Support + Devastator Squad [8 PL, 80pts]: Armorium Cherub . Space Marine: Heavy bolter . Space Marine: Boltgun . Space Marine: Boltgun . Space Marine: Boltgun . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun Devastator Squad [8 PL, 80pts]: Armorium Cherub . Space Marine: Heavy bolter . Space Marine: Boltgun . Space Marine: Boltgun . Space Marine: Boltgun . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun Rapier Carrier [4 PL, 85pts]: 2x Space Marine Gunner . Rapier Carrier: Quad launcher ++ Total: [140 PL, 2000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5194207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherTim Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 I do typically use the FF strat for the DC though and start my guard on the board. First turn sees my DC, scouts,and Guard in the enemy lines which can overwhelm a lot of players. Backed up by the 2 dev squads, scorpious, and the quad launcher the lust hits like a brick house. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5194210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Hmmm...thought it posted. Let's try again: http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.com/2018/11/warzone-atlanta-game-recap.html?m=1 must be nice to play with actual LOS blocking terrain I know that feeling. We play with enough terrain that we could almost use the Cities of Death rules but our board is still lacking big LoS blocking terrain (and paint). :D (that was a 2v3 with T'au/Space Wolves vs AdMech/GreyKnights/Orks) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5194225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majkhel Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Hmmm...thought it posted. Let's try again: http://ftgtgaming.blogspot.com/2018/11/warzone-atlanta-game-recap.html?m=1 must be nice to play with actual LOS blocking terrain I know that feeling. We play with enough terrain that we could almost use the Cities of Death rules but our board is still lacking big LoS blocking terrain (and paint). (that was a 2v3 with T'au/Space Wolves vs AdMech/GreyKnights/Orks) In my area we have decided that ground floors block LoS. Infantry can still enter, shoot and be shot at on the ground floor, but you can no longer shoot anything that is behind it (and it cannot shoot as well ofc). It made games easier, smoother and prevented "those guys" from crawling on the table all the time looking for windows through which they could see an elbow of the target with a knee of their own model... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5194244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 Yeah we do that as well but it's not really a replacement for actual big LoS blocking terrain. Especially when there are enough ruins to climb up to look over the ground floor of most ruins. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5194246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diagramdude Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 77pt scout bike units w a stormbolter on the sergeant are amazing BA skirmishers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5194274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted November 19, 2018 Share Posted November 19, 2018 77pt scout bike units w a stormbolter on the sergeant are amazing BA skirmishers. Yup, Scout bikers have always been massively underrated - from the disgusting amount of high speed shots (3x GL + Combi grav) for 100pts in 7th, to being able to fire shotguns and twin bolters in 8th. That 77pt unit can move 16", is putting out 16 shots a turn, and has 2A each due to combat knives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351111-struggling-with-variety/page/2/#findComment-5194333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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