CA Speculations

[BolterZorro]

 

It's worth remembering too, that Ad Mech really aren't that bad. They aren't top tier right now, and could use a little love, but they're far from being poor performers too - falling more in the middle of the pack.

 

The problem of Admech: too few entries. As soon as a unit underperforms you won't see it anymore. (kataphrons etc...). But if the unit completly sux, then you NEVER see it and it hurts a lot the codex. The main examples are the CC kastelans and the rustalkers. They are our main CC units and they sux. Leaving the whole army almost without CC units (except dragons which are expensive money wise).

So, technically, several strategies are out of the codex.

[Finkmilkana]

 

 

 

It's worth remembering too, that Ad Mech really aren't that bad. They aren't top tier right now, and could use a little love, but they're far from being poor performers too - falling more in the middle of the pack.

 

The problem of Admech: too few entries. As soon as a unit underperforms you won't see it anymore. (kataphrons etc...). But if the unit completly sux, then you NEVER see it and it hurts a lot the codex. The main examples are the CC kastelans and the rustalkers. They are our main CC units and they sux. Leaving the whole army almost without CC units (except dragons which are expensive money wise).

So, technically, several strategies are out of the codex.

Eh, while it sucks that they suck, ad mech still has quite a few meele options. Priests would be the prime example, (FW) hoplites another.

What ad mech is lacking (again) is ways to get them into combat reliably, in addition to shooting being generally better this edition.

[Vash113]

 

To be brutally honest, pure knights will see more play as soon as the Castellan becomes more expensive. As long as people don't see it as an auto-include, it won't feature so heavily, and people will not be in such dire need of CP to make it perform. That opens up for more play with 12 CP pure knight lists, which in my experience is just fine. If they reward pure knights with more CP, I think pure knights will be too good. I had hoped they reined in on the CP battery spam, and to an extend they did with the Big FAQ 2, but not enough. Guardsmen and cultists going up in cost might help a bit, but it might not be enough.

 

I'd still much rather run 4 questoris and 2 armigers though. It's just more fun than bringing frikking CP batteries plus Castellan.

 

I run pure Knights often myself but I very much doubt upping the points on the Castellan will help pure Knights. In a pure Knight list the Castellan is already an expensive option, it if becomes more so then it will have a harder time competing with the Porphyrion or the cheaper Crusader. As far as soup goes I doubt that will be effected either. A Raven Castellan with OOC is still just too darn good, but if it really struggles to justify its points then I expect we'll just see Raven Crusaders assisting soup lists instead. Pure Knights just have too many problems to be top competitive without support, the lack of objective secured to hold objectives being one of the big downsides.

 

 

The problem of Admech: too few entries. As soon as a unit underperforms you won't see it anymore. (kataphrons etc...). But if the unit completly sux, then you NEVER see it and it hurts a lot the codex. The main examples are the CC kastelans and the rustalkers. They are our main CC units and they sux. Leaving the whole army almost without CC units (except dragons which are expensive money wise).

 

So, technically, several strategies are out of the codex.

 

Small factions is a problem for a number of armies. Custodes, AdMech, Knights, even Grey Knights. One or two under-performing units sort of get lost in the mass of Codex: Space Marines but in armies with a dozen or so entries the impact is much larger.

[sneakybamsen]

 

 

To be brutally honest, pure knights will see more play as soon as the Castellan becomes more expensive. As long as people don't see it as an auto-include, it won't feature so heavily, and people will not be in such dire need of CP to make it perform. That opens up for more play with 12 CP pure knight lists, which in my experience is just fine. If they reward pure knights with more CP, I think pure knights will be too good. I had hoped they reined in on the CP battery spam, and to an extend they did with the Big FAQ 2, but not enough. Guardsmen and cultists going up in cost might help a bit, but it might not be enough.

 

I'd still much rather run 4 questoris and 2 armigers though. It's just more fun than bringing frikking CP batteries plus Castellan.

 

I run pure Knights often myself but I very much doubt upping the points on the Castellan will help pure Knights. In a pure Knight list the Castellan is already an expensive option, it if becomes more so then it will have a harder time competing with the Porphyrion or the cheaper Crusader. As far as soup goes I doubt that will be effected either. A Raven Castellan with OOC is still just too darn good, but if it really struggles to justify its points then I expect we'll just see Raven Crusaders assisting soup lists instead. Pure Knights just have too many problems to be top competitive without support, the lack of objective secured to hold objectives being one of the big downsides.

 

What I mean is, that if less people will want to field the Castellan, less people will be playing Order of Companions on a Raven dakkabot. Cause let's be honest, even a fully kitted Crusader is not as good a target for the stratagem, and with it costing 3CP nowadays, I don't think it will see that much use. I know it's an odd angle on the issue, but for those of us playing pure knights without Castellans, I feel 12 CP is fine. Of course, it becomes expensive when you want WLT and relic on 3 knights, which added CP would help with, but often the third relic and WLT is a luxury you can easily do without.

 

The reason I take this approach is I don't want knights to become a lot better than they are, as a lot of people already won't play against knights, because of the strength of the codex. That said, I feel that armigers need to stay where they are in points, or pure knights will die. Dreadnoughts/hellbrutes/walkers of various sorts however will need to become cheaper. A lot cheaper, as, when compared to armigers, the latter is way better point for point.

 

I feel pure knights, when built for it, can put up a good fight competitively as they are now, although holding objectives is not something that is done easily, I'll concede that.

[Stray]

 

 

 

 

I feel pure knights, when built for it, can put up a good fight competitively as they are now, although holding objectives is not something that is done easily, I'll concede that.

 

 

Nah, holding objectives is easy enough - just summon in some daem... ahem, I mean, yeah! Ob sec is tricky with Knights and the Emperor is awesome ;)

 

In all seriousness though, I think I'd still like to see Ob Sec on Armigers. Even if only in pure Knight lists. You can kinda do it via freeblade traits, but having it as standard would make them more attractive to me. They're not bad units, but I've never been that sold on them personally. 

For roughly the same points, I can take a Decimator and dump out 4D3 mortal wounds a turn.

[sneakybamsen]

 

 

 

 

 

I feel pure knights, when built for it, can put up a good fight competitively as they are now, although holding objectives is not something that is done easily, I'll concede that.

 

 

Nah, holding objectives is easy enough - just summon in some daem... ahem, I mean, yeah! Ob sec is tricky with Knights and the Emperor is awesome

 

In all seriousness though, I think I'd still like to see Ob Sec on Armigers. Even if only in pure Knight lists. You can kinda do it via freeblade traits, but having it as standard would make them more attractive to me. They're not bad units, but I've never been that sold on them personally. 

For roughly the same points, I can take a Decimator and dump out 4D3 mortal wounds a turn.

 

 

Let's agree that the decimator is ridiculously good. It's one of the reasons why some people still won't play with FW toys. I think the armigers are pretty strong, but they are where they need to be to enable pure knights. In running a pure knight army they are key, as else it won't work below 2500 points or so.

 

Obsec on them could be a boon, but they are not harder to remove than that, so one would need to protect them in order for it to have effect. Most armies can handle them without breaking a sweat, so I'm not sure if it would actually solve the issue. Having obsec on bigger knights as a general rule would probably be too strong, though.

[Ulfast]

I think one thing I want GW to do in the future for us (and a couple of other codexes) is to flesh out our army. We could really need 2-3 new units with new roles.

 

And one thing more, make dragoons cheaper to buy :)

 

this has nothing to do with CA but it should fix some of our problems that perhaps the CA can´t.

[Spiritual Liege]

 

And one thing more, make dragoons cheaper to buy

 

 

 

GW making a unit cheaper? What is this heresy?

[Frostglaive]

You dare suggest our glorious leaders in GW, in all of their infinite and infallible wisdom, make a unit cheaper?! They're prices are perfect! How dare you suggest they should change something they created so beautifully!

 

Where's the Inquisition?! We have a traitor in our midst!

 

..... but it would be nice if they cost a little bit less...

[Ulfast]

I tihnk they could do a deal like they have done for eldars cannons. You get 3 and pay for 2,5 models. That would at least be something. 

[Tiger9gamer]

You dare suggest our glorious leaders in GW, in all of their infinite and infallible wisdom, make a unit cheaper?! They're prices are perfect! How dare you suggest they should change something they created so beautifully!

 

Where's the Inquisition?! We have a traitor in our midst!

 

..... but it would be nice if they cost a little bit less...

 

I mean, they did it for liberators and AoS dorfs I think... they were outrageous before, then they doubled the model count for like, ten bucks more? I would get behind that.

 

Come on, if they have two armigers per box why the heck not two dragoons? or ten electropriests?

[Sea Reaper]

I've been out of the loop since before last Chapter Approved. I heard that Stygies infiltration stratagem got a beta test change. Is this a thing now, or do you expect it to be 'official' in CA? Do you expect any stratagems at all to get redone? Sorry, as I said a bit out the loop for a year :(

[Stray]

Beta changes are funny things. They're supposed to act as optional changes for the community to try out, when actually the practical reality is that they are treated as hard and fast amendments to the rules which all major entities adopt. This has the knock on effect of them being adopted by the community at large also.

 

The 'rule of three' was this last years example.

 

The 'beta' rule may be further tweaked in one direction or another, be nullified, or simply stand as is depending on CA or either of the bi-annual FAQ's.

 

Basically, when you see a rule change - however it is labelled - you might as adopt it. Everyone else will be

[brother_b]

These changes are geared for and normed for tournament and the WAAC mentality that creates most of the "problems" in the first place.

 

In our area the minute a beta rule comes out it's adopted by the players as a permanent rule change.

[Vash113]

Beta changes are funny things. They're supposed to act as optional changes for the community to try out, when actually the practical reality is that they are treated as hard and fast amendments to the rules which all major entities adopt. This has the knock on effect of them being adopted by the community at large also.

 

The 'rule of three' was this last years example.

 

The 'beta' rule may be further tweaked in one direction or another, be nullified, or simply stand as is depending on CA or either of the bi-annual FAQ's.

 

Basically, when you see a rule change - however it is labelled - you might as adopt it. Everyone else will be

 

Unfortunately I think you are entirely correct here. I think a lot of players and communities almost immediately adopt beta rules as a given as soon as they are out. Maybe enough complaints would see them slightly modified but mostly I would agree that the beta rules are largely set in stone almost as soon as they hit the net.

[Vel'Cona]

These changes are geared for and normed for tournament and the WAAC mentality that creates most of the "problems" in the first place.

 

In our area the minute a beta rule comes out it's adopted by the players as a permanent rule change.

 

Same.  I for one am very happy to see the across-the-board nerfs to -1 hit shenanigans as such things largely invalidate shooting phases for many armies and make for obvious "just take this" army selections.  Whenever one option clearly overwhelms the others, it needs to be brought into line.

 

Besides, the army that benefits most from this is Eldar, and anything that knocks the space elves on the noggin is fine in my book :)

[BolterZorro]

this is not CA but vigilus: did you see the upcoming specialist detachment? Focused on kastelans...

[brother_b]

 

These changes are geared for and normed for tournament and the WAAC mentality that creates most of the "problems" in the first place.

 

In our area the minute a beta rule comes out it's adopted by the players as a permanent rule change.

 

Same.  I for one am very happy to see the across-the-board nerfs to -1 hit shenanigans as such things largely invalidate shooting phases for many armies and make for obvious "just take this" army selections.  Whenever one option clearly overwhelms the others, it needs to be brought into line.

 

Besides, the army that benefits most from this is Eldar, and anything that knocks the space elves on the noggin is fine in my book

 

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately) my Admech army is Stygies. I see the -1 as a potent ability for sure (-2 for dragoons). Admech isn't a tier 1 army on the tournament scene though, so it's not like Stygies is wrecking face across the nation in the competitive scene. Now stackable -1s from Aeldari, etc, seem pretty damn powerful.

 

I think a simple fix would be make all 6s hit, or add cheap 1 CP stratagems to all armies that allow 6s to hit. They fixed orcs, but need to fix other armies that reach that "iimpossible to hit" negative modifier.

 

Adding a cover save to armies like stygies, etc, would have to be stackable. Otherwise other abilities like canticles of the Omnissiah etc would be redundant. 

 

I'm very interested to see how they address this.

[Frostglaive]

I personally don't think cover saves for Stygies will stack. Yeah it'll make shroudpsalm essentially worthless, but think about this: Opponent gets Turn 1, your ENTIRE army with both Stygies and Shroudpsalm in effect has a 2+ save for AT LEAST 1 turn. Then you spend 2CP to choose Shroudpsalm again, or get lucky on the Canticles roll, your entire army gets it for another turn. And possibly more if you keep getting lucky on Canticles.

 

As much as I would love for the two to stack, I feel like that'd be way too powerful for us... But on the other hand, getting nerfed to only having non-stacking cover completely negates one of our best canticles... I'm not sure here.

[frosteldar]

Scans of the points changes from CA for AdMech:  https://imgur.com/gallery/kTqk7Pz

 

Lots of points drops.  Knight stuff looks like it is just in-line with the IK codex.  But it appears they dropped points on the following unit base cost (based on comparisons in Battlescribe....so not sure if I'm entirely accurate:

Ironstrider Ballistarii

Kataphron Breachers and Destroyers

Sicarian Infiltrators and Ruststalkers

Onager

Tech-Priest Dominus and Enginseer

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Scans of the points changes from CA for AdMech:  https://imgur.com/gallery/kTqk7Pz

 

Lots of points drops.  Knight stuff looks like it is just in-line with the IK codex.  But it appears they dropped points on the following unit base cost (based on comparisons in Battlescribe....so not sure if I'm entirely accurate:

Ironstrider Ballistarii

Kataphron Breachers and Destroyers

Sicarian Infiltrators and Ruststalkers

Onager

Tech-Priest Dominus and Enginseer

 

Yeah, from what I can see, it looks like those are all of the regular units that get points drops.

 

Only other non-wargear changes appear to be Cawl going down and Servitors going up (I guess to compensate for wargear reductions).

[Frostglaive]

By the Omnissiah, those are some serious points drops for us. That's insane. I knew we were getting them, but not to that extent. I love this!

[frosteldar]

I agree, nice points drops on many of those units!  The only concern I have are the sweeping price reductions across most armies....making me wonder if we will just see more of the same models we already see on the table!  Hopefully more diverse lists anyway....;)

[Focslain]

Scans of the points changes from CA for AdMech:  https://imgur.com/gallery/kTqk7Pz

 

Lots of points drops.  Knight stuff looks like it is just in-line with the IK codex.  But it appears they dropped points on the following unit base cost (based on comparisons in Battlescribe....so not sure if I'm entirely accurate:

Ironstrider Ballistarii

Kataphron Breachers and Destroyers

Sicarian Infiltrators and Ruststalkers

Onager

Tech-Priest Dominus and Enginseer

 This wasn't just Admech, it's all almost all the point changes, seems that IK were not really touched other then lowering of some weapons. 

[Heliomanes]

Any highlights? A bit hard to do the calculations right now.