Indefragable Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 As I have always said, I don’t care if we’re the first book or the last, as long as it’s done right Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riot Earp Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Not happy that the Fireraptor has gone up in points. Huh is he not already base 280 after the last update FAQ? He got 20 points cheaper if you choose twin lascannon over the rockets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Very interesting stuff. I'd rather see marine get more powerful rather than more numerous, but that's too big a change for the stat benchmark. Plasma pistols and power fists seem interesting - plasma-fist sanguard? I'll have to make some sword and shield veterans, I think. 23ppm for that is brutal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Couple VV (or Company Vets) w/ a few shields, a few dual LC, and a few mooks could be intense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
keeblerartillery Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Heck, dual chain swords + a priest in support rather than LC and you have a unit that is nearly as choppy and infinitely more durable than DC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Heck, dual chain swords + a priest in support rather than LC and you have a unit that is nearly as choppy and infinitely more durable than DC Just thinking that. How much are Vets now? They have to be cheaper than DC for sure and get 4A w/ dual chainsword all the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Vanguard Vets with dual chain will be 17 (jump version), and DC similarly armed will be 20. For those 3 pts, though, you lose, a 6+++ fnp and 2 bolter shots, and the synergy with other DC stuff (lemartes, forlorn fury, etc.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 On the flip side, the Vanguard Veterans get access to Storm Shields (only 2pts) and the 5+ FNP Standard. 10 VV: 8*2 CS, 2*CS+SS = 174pts 10 DC: 10*B+CS = 200pts Lemartes is now only 100, so 300 for 10 DC plus him. A Sanguinary Ancient with a Power Fist (and Standard of Sacrifice) is 96, so 270 with the Vanguard. The Vanguard are more resilient in every way and hit essentially as hard (less shooting, but Bolters are wet noodles anyway). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Agreed, just trying to make it a full comparison. I might buy some stormshields and just start converting DC models to carrying them and do a "counts as" vanguard vets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damon Nightman Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just to kinda play devil's advocate, does giving the DC power weapons or hammers make up for the extra cost a little bit since VVs can't get an extra attack with those weapons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadMilkman Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just to kinda play devil's advocate, does giving the DC power weapons or hammers make up for the extra cost a little bit since VVs can't get an extra attack with those weapons? VV w/ Power Swords deal .0370 damage per point to MEQ, while DC deal .0463 per point, assuming a charge. On the next fight phase, the VV drop to .0278 (no more Red Thirst), while the DC drop to .0232. I think the DC win that one. I'm still going to be using my DC for thunder hammers and power swords. I have some more bodies, I think I'm going to do them up with power fists now that those are cheaper. But my chainsword wielding maniacs? I'm planning to rip off their bolter arms, and put chainswords instead. I'll just run them as vanguard vets in black. Biggest change for me is I'm going to start running a brigade, instead of twin battalion and vanguard. An attack bike with HB is only 37 points. With a MM, only 49. Whirlwinds are 90 points with Vengeance launchers. It only gets me one CP, but I think it will be superior. I'll find out, anyway. The other big find for me is a Librarian Terminator, who can be given a storm shield as an index option. He's only 122 points with a storm shield and force axe. He can deep strike, with Wings he can be mobile, with Quicken he can charge from deep strike with ease. And he is way more durable than the Jump Pack Librarian I've been using, with a 2+/3++ save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Very interesting stuff. I'd rather see marine get more powerful rather than more numerous, but that's too big a change for the stat benchmark. Plasma pistols and power fists seem interesting - plasma-fist sanguard? I'll have to make some sword and shield veterans, I think. 23ppm for that is brutal. Inferno fist is much better though bruh . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The4thHorseman Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 So did Jump Pack Company Vets get cheaper via Wargear. They are 19 ppm in the Index. SO what are they now? 17ppm? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I’ve done plasma Sang Guard in the past. That was a go-to Index option for me before the Codex dropped. You ideally either want to go all in on a scary unit or do the “John Woo” and shoot unit A but charge unit B that’s closer so that you don’t shoot yourself out of charge range. I think Flesh Tearers and footslog BA will be better off with a lot of options now, such as the Libby termie and such as others have mentioned above. I think there’s potential for a 1-2 punch of DC for Forlorn Fury pressure backed up by a second wave of dual chainsword VV. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Some good drops for us, I'm really liking the Inferno Pistol drops (also Hand Flamers apparently all moving to D6 hits in the future) so my love of Pistols is accounted for. I'm really eager to try some full aggression where Anti-tank is covered by Inferno Pistols and CC, as opposed to dedicated shooting. With enough sprinkled around (and at only 5pts!) they still hit for S8 -4AP D6 Damage, which is pretty gnarly against all but the heaviest vehicles. Terminators going down is nice too as ours were always awesome - plus I bought quite a few at the back end of 7th with the Arch Angels introduction. Like everyone else I'm baffled by the Baal Pred - Overcharged Engines are clearly in the price and valued greatly, yet you can't even shoot the damn thing if you do. Suppose i'll just wait even longer to finish painting mine (turret is still white since the early 2000s ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Where did you get the hand flamers tidbit? If it's in the Sister codex, well, see Deathwatch, frag cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatbudda Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Are you not worried about the 6" range on fusion pistols though? Or do you find you manage to get close enough to use it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I just don’t understand where their heads are at for so many things (like the Baal the fact that Encarmine are overpriced force weapons). I think part of it is due to the fact that only SG can take encarmine weapons. Take SG and compare them to Terminators who were 30% more expensive (and are still 15% more expensive, even after their CA price cut). Both models come with 2W, 2A and a 2+ save. Termies get a 5++ (which is only an advantage against AP-4 or better weapons) while SG get a 12" move and the benefits associated with FLY (one of the best rules in 8th edition). The base SG model is clearly under-priced compared to the Terminator and I believe the inflated price of the Encarmine weapons is simply to put the total price back to where GW intended them to be. If GW brought the price of Encarmine weapons in line with Force Weapons but bumped SG up to 24 ppm, we would be back exactly where we are now and I think naked SG would probably be priced fairly compared to naked Terminators. I think basic SG are underpriced compared to other Elite options and it is only the wargear cost that brings them back into balance. SG cost the same as JP DC yet have twice as many wounds and a 2+ save. Does Black rage and a 6+++ balance that? Personally I am not convinced that it does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 Are you not worried about the 6" range on fusion pistols though? Or do you find you manage to get close enough to use it? You treat them like melta bombs for that price. That's exactly what I thought Charlo, they are basically melta bombs for your units at that price point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 The base SG model is clearly under-priced compared to the Terminator and I believe the inflated price of the Encarmine weapons is simply to put the total price back to where GW intended them to be. Strongly disagree. Terminators were certainly overpriced, but SG are too. If you take PF/AB on the SG vs PF/SB Terminators, they're still cheaper (T, 23+2+9=34; SG, 20+3+9=31) with those same benefits. The SG are probably fine at 31, but the Terminators at 34 are still a bit...meh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5211889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Where did you get the hand flamers tidbit? If it's in the Sister codex, well, see Deathwatch, frag cannon. Read it in one of the threads, its apparently in the designers notes of CA. Are you not worried about the 6" range on fusion pistols though? Or do you find you manage to get close enough to use it? You treat them like melta bombs for that price. That's exactly what I thought Charlo, they are basically melta bombs for your units at that price point. Exactly that! It's less about trying to get within the re-roll to wound range and more about just getting VERY cheap and powerful shots sprinkled around units that will be in the thick of it. Makes your anti tank a lot harder to remove. Plus if you make it into combat and the enemy doesn't retreat, shooting it point blank will be gnarly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5212032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Sang Guard: where the comparison fails is that Terminators have a native 5++ invuln. SG do not. i've asked a hundred times before, but what's wrong with flying terminators? SG need an invuln to make them so reliant on the Standard of cheese Sacrifice. Every game I have played they are magnets for all the AP-4 the opponent muster specifically because it's such an ideal profile for that weapon type. It might not seem like much, but it would make a big difference. Personally I would gladly pay for a 2W 2+/4++ SG. As for Inferno pistols ("fusion" pistols) where they come into their own is when the lines have already crashed and you're mixing it up with the enemy at close range; shoot target A and charge target B, etc... This might seem weird, but you can't wield them like melta guns, but rather as their own thing, best used for close-range character sniping and cutting open vehicles on your way to charging something juicy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5212043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I have lots of Fusion Blaster sprinkled around in my T'au list because it's just more interesting to have the Shas'vre of a Stealth Suit unit with a different weapon than the rest ... let me tell you that it's not nearly as effective as having a proper tank hunting unit that comes in and does the job properly. :P But yeah since the Inferno Pistol is for free might as well take a few in random units as long as it doesn't mean you trade in the option to take a better weapon instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5212053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverson Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 A power fist plasma pistol sanguinary guard model for 34pts just seems so good right now to me. I know people are saying th/as vanguard veterans at 35pts are the way forward but both seem good to me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5212083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Sang Guard: where the comparison fails is that Terminators have a native 5++ invuln. SG do not. i've asked a hundred times before, but what's wrong with flying terminators? SG need an invuln to make them so reliant on the Standard of cheese Sacrifice. Every game I have played they are magnets for all the AP-4 the opponent muster specifically because it's such an ideal profile for that weapon type. It might not seem like much, but it would make a big difference. Personally I would gladly pay for a 2W 2+/4++ SG. I did mention the 5++ in my comparison. It only becomes relevant if they are taking hits from AP-4 weapons. These are not massively common on the battlefield (although I grant there are some). Against Lascannons, Thunder Hammers etc, SG are just as durable as Terminators. If you find yourself facing units with AP-4, try to take them out as a priority. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351318-ba-and-ca-20/page/7/#findComment-5212228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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