Thousand Sons build help

[Tyriks]

Discs are screamers, so anyone on a disc has the daemon keyword because they're riding a daemon.

[antique_nova]

Discs are screamers, so anyone on a disc has the daemon keyword because they're riding a daemon.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks!

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

I just did the math and I based it on averages against T5-7 units, because against T4 or lower it makes no difference and also, because you'll be facing almost no units with T8 or higher. Plus if you do, well lets just say that you'll either be only needing to take down one of them (say the one with a shieldbreaker missile) and the slaanesh oblits should be more than enough to take it down in one turn with focus fire. The oblits will use use their weapon's average, so S8 - AP2 - D2. All oblits are assumed to have the reroll 1s to hit.

 

On average, the Slaanesh based oblits x3 + prescience for one unit shooting twice + VOTLW do 41 hits and 31 wounds.

On average, the tzeentch based oblits x3 + the +1 strength buff, the daemon spark and prescience for one unit shooting + flickering flames + VOTLW for separate units do 30 hits and 27 wounds.

 

The different in buffs and support is:

 

Slaanesh - chaos lord - 1x spell - 2x stratagem 

Tzeentch - chaos lord/ahriman etc - tzeentch daemon hq with warlord trait - 2x spell - 2x stratagem

 

As you can see, not only does the tzeentch option cost more (you'd need other units to synapse, so I guess that makes them equal on points), but it's also faaaar more complicated and reliant on one more spell for massive difference in results which are obviously inferior to the former.

 

If you are against T8 units, then the tzeentch oblits would only get 22 wounds (not counting damage wounds) on average, while the Slaanesh oblits would only get 18 wounds on average. Since it's rare to face such units, it's not really a win for the tzeentch oblits, because both are still nowhere near enough to take down a T8 ++4 invul save Knight Castellan . Although the Tzeentch version should just force the knight to sneak into the final bracket, the knights have a stratagem that allows them to fight at full strength and with only 6 wounds left, the knight can easily have a priest repair itself to just be nudged back into the middle bracket. Plus, you're not really going to have anything else that can finish it off.

 

So in short, there's proof that unless your oblits are shooting T8 targets, they never beat Slaanesh ones and even when they do against T8, it's only by a small margin, which isn't even enough to make a difference in any case. So that advantage is mute.

 

 

Not quite. Daemonspark is a Warlord Trait, not a Stratagem. The only CP used here is a single spend of VotLW for 1 CP, as opposed to 3 for VotLW and Cacophony.

 

So one more spell, 2 fewer CP. Flickering Flames is only a 5 to cast, BTW, so very unlikely to fail.

 

The Daemon Prince can be the HQ from the same Legion that the Oblits come from (the HQ from the Spearhead). He'll give reroll 1's to hit to all Tzeentch Daemons in the army near him as well.

 

The Herald will give reroll 1's to wound during shooting, +1 Strength, and the CC protection to all Tzeentch Daemons close to him. This includes the Prince, the Oblits, himself, and any other Daemons in the army (like the Flamers).

 

So yes, in isolation, Tzeentch costs more points for more output against big stuff and less against small, but the Prince is going to contribute more buffs to the rest of the Tzeentch Army than the Slaanesh Chaos Lord will (nothing). The Herald will likewise enhance the other assets in the army, so those additional points are doing double duty.

 

This build is far more CP-efficient and less vulnerable to bad dice. 3 x 3 Oblits is a LOT of chances for bad dice. I play Iron Warriors and field 3 x 3 Slaanesh Oblits with a Lord regularly and the rolls can really bite you.

 

As for Exalted Flamers, their Blue Fire is Heavy 3, 18" range, Str = User + 4 (Str 10 near Herald), AP-4, Damage D3. Pink is Pistol D6, 12" range, Str User (6 near Herald), AP-2, Damage 1.

 

9 shots with the Heavy profile plus what the Oblits bring is not overkill when facing all Knight armies, Death Guard, tank-heavy IG, or Deathwatch Primaris spam. I have to face all of those where I am.

 

Their anti-tank has enough range that dropping in at midfield (or close against Primaris) isn't suicide and 3D6 auto-hitting shots at 12 inches is with the Pink profile will do a decent job clearing any lightweight units that approach midfield where they plan to sit.

 

As for the other utility, I've already explained the counter-tarpit plan. Most cheap tarpit units should die due to a combo of overwatch, heroic intervention, Oblit melee attacks, Prince and Flamer melee attacks, Morale, and then Flamer Pistol attacks on the next round before the Oblits' turn to shoot comes up. At least 1 unit, if not two, should easily be free to fire. Maybe all 3.

 

In any case, based on my experience with Slaanesh Oblits and Tzeentch Daemon synergies, I like this build better. You prefer the simplicity and directness you get and you play on a clock more often than I do. If Slaanesh Oblits weren't good, we wouldn't see them everywhere, but I put more stock in reliability. Not sure we even need to agree based on how that seems to work for us.

[antique_nova]

I didn't say Daemon Spark was a stratagem, because I said that there was a Tzeentch hq with a warlord trait. But looking again, I'm not sure why I put 2x stratagem and in hindsight, I should have been much clearer that the Daemon Spark was a warlord trait in my response.

 

I didn't mention that the Chaos Lord had to be Slaanesh as I don't use a Slaanesh lord and he doesn't give nothing, he gives the reroll 1s to hit as well, just like the DP. Also, the big disadvantage of the DP is that he can't deepstrike with the oblits without being summoned or using a stratagem. Sure he can move to the general area, but that is too many variables.

 

The only real difference that the Tzeentch DP will have over the Chaos lord in terms of buffs is by casting a buffing spell. That's it, unless I've missed something. Yes, he may use heroic intervention, but so can the chaos lord and in all honesty, whatever is charging the oblits will either be so many that the DP with his attacks won't be able to kill enough of them to prevent the oblits from being tied for at least one turn or he himself will be ripped apart as they target him first from their charge as they'll be strong enough to do so and then tie up the oblits. And even if they don't target the prince first and go for the oblits, chances are, at least one squad of oblits will die and the other two will still be tied up for at least one round.

 

My point is, whatever is charging the oblits will be more than enough to take down a DP without too much trouble. (This is under the assumption that cheap tarpit units aren't being thrown your way as I don't do that and don't face such units as my opponents. Probably like me, don't see the advantages as being big enough of doing it or even taking such units. And when I talk about cheap tarpit units, I mean about using them to tarpit the enemy units, not to tarpit enemy tarpit enemy units as I have my own units that act as cheap tarpits in a defensive matter to hold enemy assaults)

 

The other point is, the DP's spell buff is not an advantage when he can't keep up with the oblits if they deep strike on opposite sides, which the chaos lord with a jump pack can. 

 

I do agree that there is a lot of potential for bad dice with 3x3 oblits, but I believe that I've shown that the shoot twice stratagem wins out in most cases and yes, while there is the potential for bad dice rolls to ruin your game, I think you'd be overspending in that department just to ensure that you get the edge against T8 targets and higher, because even with bad dice rolls, the Slaanesh oblits come out on top of the Tzeentch oblits against T7 and lower targets. However, as you've stated you wouldn't be overspending at the same time, because your synergy isn't just limited to the oblits, whereas mine are moreso and I completely agree with that.

 

I also agree that it's not overkill when facing the armies you face with the Exalted Flamers, but I personally believe that those points are much better spent elsewhere. Personally, I prefer spamming Tzaangor Englithened with a Shaman as that +5 auto-wound is incredibly deadly. Plus they have range, meaning most of the time, the enemy won't be able to use the anti-infantry weapons that are so useful against them most of the time. They have to split their anti-tank weapons between them or the oblits and that can be a hard choice. Sure your exalted flamers are characters, so can't be targetted, but the rest of your army has to get pretty close to the enemy to cover them to prevent them from being picked out and if you're using a tzeentch heavy army without tzaangors, then I don't think that's a good idea.

 

I'm not sure what cheap tarpit units that your opponents send against your oblits, because I'd never do that since it makes no sense in the first place when it's better to go in seriously. And your oblits should be well protected enough in the first place that your enemies shouldn't even be able to assault them in the first place.

 

While I don't disagree with your statement of synergies. I still must disagree with the point about reliability, because I believe that the number of extra shots ultimately wins the day, even with bad dice rolls. Because the way I've built everything in my army makes it extremely difficult to decide which to focus on, as they'll are deadly against everything in their own way, but they just have different methods going about it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I didn't say Daemon Spark was a stratagem, because I said that there was a Tzeentch hq with a warlord trait. But looking again, I'm not sure why I put 2x stratagem and in hindsight, I should have been much clearer that the Daemon Spark was a warlord trait in my response.

 

I didn't mention that the Chaos Lord had to be Slaanesh as I don't use a Slaanesh lord and he doesn't give nothing, he gives the reroll 1s to hit as well, just like the DP. Also, the big disadvantage of the DP is that he can't deepstrike with the oblits without being summoned or using a stratagem. Sure he can move to the general area, but that is too many variables.

 

 

The Chaos Lord cannot be a Thousand Son. He gives nothing to the rest of the army because of the Legion rule (reroll 1's is only for <LEGION>). That is not the case with the Daemon Prince. He will give bonuses to any Tzeentch Daemons, period (in addition to Legion). That means his own Oblits, the Exalted Flamers, the Herald, and any Thousand Sons in the rest of the army that happen to be Daemons (probably another Prince at least).

 

As for cheap tarpit units, I see DE Venoms and Kabalites, Rhino-equivalent transports, Gaunts, and masses of Cultists used in that fashion. Stormboyz or teleported Orks of many different kinds also exist. Scout Bikes also come to mind....immediately after they've wrecked a screening unit with 22 shots from even 3 bikes. Badly weakened units from other categories that have survived the initial charge will also often charge/consolidate later to tie up enemy units.

 

Reece Robbins from Frontline Gaming recently went 4-1 at an event with roughly 75 Cultists, 60 Bloodletters, Skarbrand, a Daemon Prince with the Skullreaver Axe and a Dual Battle Cannon Renegade Knight. There was also a Dark Apostle and an Exalted Champion. One of his primary strategies was to frontline, run forward, and tie up as many units as possible so that they couldn't shoot, while dropping in Bloodletters, which would often multi-charge to again, tie up shooting as well as kill. There was also an ITC tournament in the northeastern U.S. (I believe) won by Abaddon and 100 fearless Marines.

 

As for never getting charged, I fail to see how that will happen against, say, Hive Fleet Kraken with 100 Genestealers, who leave you zero space on their side of the table to drop Oblits and can get many of them into combat on Turn 1, or Ork armies who do the same thing with even more fast infantry models (via tellyporta, da jump, etc.) while a Loota Star erases every screening unit you have in front of the Oblits.

 

Units that fight twice (or more) can kill their way to you even when they charge something else.

 

The Oblits need to be within 24 inches of the enemy to fight effectively. That's a danger zone when facing many armies. I prefer to fight in that danger zone and clear my units so they can shoot, since falling back will be a never ending death spiral against a horde.

 

You probably have a different answer to this. I'd like to hear it and then we should probably get back to more concrete theory for the OP's benefit.

 

EDIT: found the actual numbers on Reece's list.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

I didn't say Daemon Spark was a stratagem, because I said that there was a Tzeentch hq with a warlord trait. But looking again, I'm not sure why I put 2x stratagem and in hindsight, I should have been much clearer that the Daemon Spark was a warlord trait in my response.

 

I didn't mention that the Chaos Lord had to be Slaanesh as I don't use a Slaanesh lord and he doesn't give nothing, he gives the reroll 1s to hit as well, just like the DP. Also, the big disadvantage of the DP is that he can't deepstrike with the oblits without being summoned or using a stratagem. Sure he can move to the general area, but that is too many variables.

 

 

The Chaos Lord cannot be a Thousand Son. He gives nothing to the rest of the army because of the Legion rule (reroll 1's is only for <LEGION>). That is not the case with the Daemon Prince. He will give bonuses to any Tzeentch Daemons, period (in addition to Legion). That means his own Oblits, the Exalted Flamers, the Herald, and any Thousand Sons in the rest of the army that happen to be Daemons (probably another Prince at least).

 

As for cheap tarpit units, I see DE Venoms and Kabalites, Rhino-equivalent transports, Gaunts, and masses of Cultists used in that fashion. Stormboyz or teleported Orks of many different kinds also exist. Scout Bikes also come to mind....immediately after they've wrecked a screening unit with 22 shots from even 3 bikes. Badly weakened units from other categories that have survived the initial charge will also often charge/consolidate later to tie up enemy units.

 

Reece Robbins from Frontline Gaming recently went 4-1 at an event with roughly 100 Cultists, 60+ Bloodletters, a Daemon Prince with the Skullreaver Axe and a Dual Battle Cannon Renegade Knight. One of his primary strategies was to frontline, run forward, and tie up as many units as possible so that they couldn't shoot, while dropping in Bloodletters, which would often multi-charge to again, tie up shooting as well as kill. There was also an ITC tournament in the northeastern U.S. (I believe) won by Abaddon and 100 fearless Marines.

 

As for never getting charged, I fail to see how that will happen against, say, Hive Fleet Kraken with 100 Genestealers, who leave you zero space on their side of the table to drop Oblits and can get many of them into combat on Turn 1, or Ork armies who do the same thing with even more fast infantry models (via tellyporta, da jump, etc.) while a Loota Star erases every screening unit you have in front of the Oblits.

 

Units that fight twice (or more) can kill their way to you even when they charge something else.

 

The Oblits need to be within 24 inches of the enemy to fight effectively. That's a danger zone when facing many armies. I prefer to fight in that danger zone and clear my units so they can shoot, since falling back will be a never ending death spiral against a horde.

 

You probably have a different answer to this. I'd like to hear it and then we should probably get back to more concrete theory for the OP's benefit.

 

One more thing: Not using a Tzeentch army without Tzaangors. The other detachment would be a Battalion with 2 TS HQ's and, as I said earlier, a mix of Tzaangors ("goats") and Rubrics.