What are Thousand Sons hoping for from Chapter Approved?

[Tyriks]

Although I can't find the source, I'm pretty sure that in this year's chapter approved GWS said there will be NO POINTS CHANGES. Most of the changes would be in the stratagems themselves and other stuff.

 

Even if I am wrong, I agree that the marines need to be heavily tweaked because right now, it's a no brainer to choose birdmen over the marines every single time. The only marine I field in my TS GT army is Ahriman for his +1 and ability to spam spells and deny them too.

 

However, even if the changes that the OP suggested were implemented. I still wouldn't bat an eyelash at the marines, because the birdmen are far too strong in every aspect except survivability, but that's not much of the problem when you can teleport and deepstrike them. As a unit of 30x birdmen can quite easily murder a 10 man rubric marine unit in one assault phase and the marines won't be able to do much. Plus, they're only a 10 point difference, before you factor in special weapons.

Comparing Tzaangors to Rubrics is never going to give you a good idea of which is better because they do vastly different things. Of course Rubrics will lose in cc to cc units - they have no teeth in cc. Rubrics have very dangerous shooting, which Tzaangors don't. Rubrics have much more durability. Rubrics can also cast. I tend to bring rubrics in 5 man squads that I just treat as a disposable sorcerer and I get great mileage out of them. They're 4 points more than a sorcerer with one less cast but essentially an extra wound, better saves and ten times the shooting (with better range).

 

There are 100% guaranteed points changes in CA. Quoted from WHC on the subject:

"Matched play fans have been scrutinising the new points from the book, and it’s clear at this point that one massive winner is the Grey Knights, who have seen sweeping points reductions across a swathe of units."

[antique_nova]

I had thought they meant no point changes for Fall FAQ though CA still might be on the table. I could be wrong.

That might have been what I was quoting.

[antique_nova]

 

Comparing Tzaangors to Rubrics is never going to give you a good idea of which is better because they do vastly different things. Of course Rubrics will lose in cc to cc units - they have no teeth in cc. Rubrics have very dangerous shooting, which Tzaangors don't. Rubrics have much more durability. Rubrics can also cast. I tend to bring rubrics in 5 man squads that I just treat as a disposable sorcerer and I get great mileage out of them. They're 4 points more than a sorcerer with one less cast but essentially an extra wound, better saves and ten times the shooting (with better range).

 

There are 100% guaranteed points changes in CA. Quoted from WHC on the subject:

"Matched play fans have been scrutinising the new points from the book, and it’s clear at this point that one massive winner is the Grey Knights, who have seen sweeping points reductions across a swathe of units."

 

 

It actually does, when they're competing for the exact same spot and by that I mean troops choice. Other than that, yes they do vastly different things in the sense of how they're optimised.

 

Rubrics are dangerous at shooting, but compared to the damage output of the rubrics shooting to the tzaangors assault. The rubrics get their ass handed to them. If you don't want to read my breakdown of the comparisons in roles and you want to read my direct response to how you use them. Then please scroll down until you see a long ass line of ***********. :)

 

If we compare a 10 man rubrics unit with inferno bolters that's 20 shots (when rapid firing. Being generous here, because they'll shoot 10 shots most of the time. 13 of which will hit on average.

If we compare a 30 tzaangor unit with tzaangor blades. That's 61 attacks. 40 of which will hit on average. (If a shaman is nearby, then that's 54 hits)

 

Both wound on S4. While the tzaangor blades are AP1, the inferno bolters are AP2. We don't need to compared wounds caused, because it's obvious who wins here as the damage output of the Tzaangors is 4x the rubrics. But 

 

There's only 10 points between them. Both units have +5 invul saves. But now this is where they differ.

 

The rubrics are clearly winners against small arms fire and little else, because no one is going to argue that rubrics take heavy weapons fire better than the tzaangors. By heavy weapons I mean anti-tank weapons. If we're talking about anti-horde weapons, then obviously rubrics win, but no ones really going to try and shoot AP0 D1 weapons at the rubrics.

 

But let's just move away from all that for a moment and think about the three biggest roles they can play. Objective sitting. Spearhead & contesting. (bubble wrapping is a minor role and doesn't really count)

 

Objective sitting (at home): Rubrics win in most cases with a 5 man squad against a 10 beast man squad, even though they cost 30 points more. But if you're going to use an objective sitting unit at home, never are especially suited as brimstone horrors and cultists are much better and can be out of LOS. Or, you can just use a sorcerer as they sit back and spam spells. Hell, even a chaos spawn or tzaangor enlightened are better due to their smaller size and having to spend less points. So, even if rubrics win this section, it's not something you'd generally want them to do at all. Especially when they suffer no heavy weapons penalty for moving and shooting.

 

Spearhead (initiating their own attack into the heart of the enemy): I'm not talking about picking off stragglers, but being able to cause some serious damage to pretty much anything they set their sights on. In this case, tzaangors are far more reliable with warptime shenanigans from the shaman and dark crystal matter and deep striking. Most people are unable to survive such an onslaughter. Hell, even mortarion is going to lose 10 wounds after disgustingly resilient against a full 30 beast unit and that's in just one assault phase. Even titans should be afraid. However, I have to admit that this tactic normally requires at least 2 full 30 beastman units, because the enemy may have bubble wrap units and forward denial units, so you need some good shooty units to back them up and clear a path (something you don't rely on rubrics to do as their shooting is so weak in general)

 

Contesting (Objectives and deep strike areas say in the middle of the board): This one is the least straight forward to argue, but the outcome is somewhat similar to the objective sitting comparison I made earlier. Both can do it to varying degrees, but again, they're too expensive for this when you have so many other options such as tzaangor englightened, screamers, vortes beasts (yes they are more expensive, but they survive much better and can handle CC much better).

 

However, I can't ignore what you said and the role you used them for.

 

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** :)

 

I must admit I didn't think of what you thought, but here's what I think of it.

 

Rubrics can cast, but they're severely limited by the one cast limit. Yes they're a tad cheaper, but when you buy a sorcerer you buy him for the crud load of support spells you can have him cast. When you choose a rubrics unit, you aren't doing that. However, I will admit that the only advantage I see to this is that then your spellcaster won't get sniped by the ridiculous shield breaker missiles. (I hate those, It just feels like a cheap under the table gimmick made legal to make the knights competitive).

 

I also don't like the idea of a disposable sorcerer, because those points could have been used to get a proper psyker by having another spell to cast. Although, I just had a realisation. Every model in the rubric unit counts as a psyker, so you should always be able to take full advantage of the catabalistic focus. :P Now that sounds fun! ^^.

 

I'm not exactly sure what else you have in your TS army, so it's hard for me to fully understand how you feel you get great mileage out of them, because with the TS army I have, I'm heavily reliant on psykers as I have two sorcerers (one of them is my warlord with +1 to cast) and ahriman (for the 2x sorcerers with +1 to cast in case one of them is killed by say that silly shieldbreaker missile or snipers). That way, I can pretty much always ensure that whenever I really want a spell to go off, then I use Ahriman or my warlord with Catabalistic focus for +3 to my psychic test. (Which is basically better than Magnus the red's +2). I also have a shaman, so that's 4x Thousand Son psykers in total who hide behind a lot of units. (I have a lot of tzaangor units, so that's why I need so many spells as my army is quite reliant on it to go full tilt mode. But they're pretty deadly even without it)

 

Also, are you seriously comparing the shooting of a sorcerer with a rubrics unit? :P (I mean come on, the guy isn't even made for shooting, so you can't compare them, just like you mentioned you can't compare tzaangors and rubrics in general, because they fill different roles ^^)

[Tyriks]

They really aren't comparable. It doesn't matter that they're in the same slot. They aren't doing the same thing. Tzaangors need support to do anything - you're either spending cp to deep strike them or burning the dark matter crystal. Rubrics don't need that.

 

Obviously an actual sorcerer is going to cast more but rubrics are a good halfway - they hold objectives better and yes, they have much better shooting. Sorcerers aren't used for shooting because they suck at it. That doesn't invalidate that rubrics can shoot. It is silly to criticize how rubrics take heavy weapons fire. If someone is shooting heavy weapons at rubrics they aren't using their tools effectively anyway.

 

Sorcerers also don't cast better than aspiring sorcerers. They cast one more spell with the exact same effectiveness (besides smites). Cast your support spells with rubrics and your sorcerers are free to smite more.

 

I'm not saying don't use tzaangors. I like a squad of 30. But rubrics do a lot they can't.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I had thought they meant no point changes for Fall FAQ though CA still might be on the table. I could be wrong.

Warhammer Community's coverage of the Vigilus Weekender specifically said that Grey Knights would get sweeping point drops across the army.

[Raven1]

I had thought they meant no point changes for Fall FAQ though CA still might be on the table. I could be wrong.

Well Reese from frontline gaming without going into specifics talked about point drops for losta of stuff. I forget which army he said it was but it dropped 3 digits in points.

[Prot]

I still say it has to be more than points. I’ve had this debate with so many friends.

 

Some always say ‘ yea my Dark Angels need a point reduction ‘ or whatever the army is. I’ll say okay take 5 free Intercessors in your next game. Do you think you’re going to win now? Think about it. That’s about 100 free points, potentially 5+% of your list for free.

 

Is a 100 points not enough? Or is it the unit in question? Is it both? Think about this. I really believe it’s more a mechanical issue and aside from a new codex I hope the CA gives us this opportunity at fixes. Points certainly help a bit though but I think that’s more the bandaid fix personally.

[BoomWolf]

People often underestimate just how impactful are a few bodies due to cascading effects.

One more squad on T1 kills a bit more, in return you take fewer losses and have even more at T2 and so forth.

 

Mathematically speaking, a even a force of 101 tacticals actually had a notable advantage over a force of 100

[Tyriks]

I still say it has to be more than points. I’ve had this debate with so many friends.

Some always say ‘ yea my Dark Angels need a point reduction ‘ or whatever the army is. I’ll say okay take 5 free Intercessors in your next game. Do you think you’re going to win now? Think about it. That’s about 100 free points, potentially 5+% of your list for free.

Is a 100 points not enough? Or is it the unit in question? Is it both? Think about this. I really believe it’s more a mechanical issue and aside from a new codex I hope the CA gives us this opportunity at fixes. Points certainly help a bit though but I think that’s more the bandaid fix personally.

This is true, to a point. I would rather have units work better but I'd take cost reductions over not changing. And point changes can make a difference. I know I've had games that came right down to the wire, an extra unit with obsec could have turned the tide there. But also if cost s come down I'm probably not adding exrra troops, I'll add more big toys.

[Skerr]

"Every model in the rubric unit counts as a psyker, so you should always be able to take full advantage of the catabalistic focus.  Now that sounds fun! ^^."

 

Is this true? I actually never thought of that and hope GW clarifies the rubric psycher keyword confusion.

 

I can see it from a mechanical point though if it were on film or other media it seems the intent is 3 legit sorcerers in semantic ritual together and dont see Rubrics doing this, without snickering...

 

 

[Tyriks]

The whole unit has the keyword but only the sorcerer can cast. The rules for the unit casting specify the sorcerer.

[Skerr]

That is how I read it as well though an interesting point by the poster.

[Tyriks]

For the strat I'm not sure at all how that works. Raw it works.

[Ahzek451]

I know this is coming from BoLS and needs to be taken with a truck of salt and all that jazz...but man! I hope its true:

cultists to 5 points

point reductions on greater daemons

Tzaangors possibly bumped up from 7 to 8 points

90pt 5-man Rubrics

26pt Grey Knight Terminators

Rites of Banishment is being removed for Grey Knights, gaining Smite

Cultists up from 4 to 5 points

Scarab Occult Terminators getting a points cut from 33 per model to 26 per model

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/12/40k-rumor-round-up.html

 

Obviously we all really hope for points drops for the sons, but man.... I hope the greater daemon one is true. I would love to go back to how I started playing T.sons....with a big ol' lord of change and a host of rubrics. 

[Quixus]

Obviously we all really hope for points drops for the sons, but man.... I hope the greater daemon one is true. I would love to go back to how I started playing T.sons....with a big ol' lord of change and a host of rubrics. 

I'm not so sure what the LoC would do for Thousand Sons, but I like the idea of a few rubrics and sorcerers aided by lots of daemons. Goats are not my thing.

[Ahzek451]

 

Obviously we all really hope for points drops for the sons, but man.... I hope the greater daemon one is true. I would love to go back to how I started playing T.sons....with a big ol' lord of change and a host of rubrics. 

I'm not so sure what the LoC would do for Thousand Sons, but I like the idea of a few rubrics and sorcerers aided by lots of daemons. Goats are not my thing.

 

Yeah this is more of a fluff thing and aesthetic throwback. Back in 2nd and 3rd, there was no daemon codex and daemons were lumped in with chaos marines. It was more common and accepting to see daemons and chaos marines together, actually if anything it was that unholy union that really set them apart from space marines. The synergy may not be as strong now, but I would love to make that oldschool feeling come back. Nothing from stopping me now, granted, but I was not as excited with how expensive big birds are and the lack of goodies they can get if I make sons the primary detachment. 

[Paladin777]

That kind of drop on the SOT would be great as I’ve got a bunch of them!

[BoomWolf]

I know this is coming from BoLS and needs to be taken with a truck of salt and all that jazz...but man! I hope its true:

 

cultists to 5 points

point reductions on greater daemons

Tzaangors possibly bumped up from 7 to 8 points

90pt 5-man Rubrics

26pt Grey Knight Terminators

Rites of Banishment is being removed for Grey Knights, gaining Smite

Cultists up from 4 to 5 points

Scarab Occult Terminators getting a points cut from 33 per model to 26 per model

 

Source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/12/40k-rumor-round-up.html

 

Obviously we all really hope for points drops for the sons, but man.... I hope the greater daemon one is true. I would love to go back to how I started playing T.sons....with a big ol' lord of change and a host of rubrics. 

 

None of it is sourced, and its written in a really odd manner.

I'd say its inaccurate at best.

 

After all, it uses with-equipment costs for some cases, and without-equipment costs to others. (especially inconsistent where "before" costs are with gear, and "after" costs are without most of the time)

[Skerr]

Rubrics are already 18 points now without wargear. A five man squad is 90 points sans wargear. Need more info. If true good news on SOTs

[antique_nova]

They really aren't comparable. It doesn't matter that they're in the same slot. They aren't doing the same thing. Tzaangors need support to do anything - you're either spending cp to deep strike them or burning the dark matter crystal. Rubrics don't need that.

 

Obviously an actual sorcerer is going to cast more but rubrics are a good halfway - they hold objectives better and yes, they have much better shooting. Sorcerers aren't used for shooting because they suck at it. That doesn't invalidate that rubrics can shoot. It is silly to criticize how rubrics take heavy weapons fire. If someone is shooting heavy weapons at rubrics they aren't using their tools effectively anyway.

 

Sorcerers also don't cast better than aspiring sorcerers. They cast one more spell with the exact same effectiveness (besides smites). Cast your support spells with rubrics and your sorcerers are free to smite more.

 

I'm not saying don't use tzaangors. I like a squad of 30. But rubrics do a lot they can't.

 

I never said that sorcerers cast better than aspiring sorcerers, I stated that one of them is my warlord and has the ability that adds a +1 to all their psychic test rolls.

 

You compared Sorcerers to rubrics for shooting and I just stated that you can't do that, because as you said earlier. They don't both try to compete for the same role, so that point is irrelevant when making a comparison. I never said that the fact rubrics can shoot is invalid, just the comparison between it and the sorcerer. Rubrics can shoot and shoot well, but cost way too much for what they can achieve.

 

My conclusion is that whatever role you put them in, rubrics always lose, because they're not the best at pretty much any role you give them. If you're worried about your spell casters from being sniped by any weapon and/or abilities. Then get more of them and hide them behind more units and cover. Because by getting a rubrics unit to make it silly to try and shoot down the spell caster in that unit, you've halved the psychic potential of that sorcerer. When there are far less costly methods to do so.

 

I also never critisized how rubrics take heavy weapons fire. I specifically stated that no one is going to argue about it. So, I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

 

Regardless of what rubrics or tzaangors do and don't need. The main point I'm trying to make is that, rubrics are invalid. They aren't the best choice for anything, where being the best is the number one objective and fluff is not involved. They cost too much to do anything and they do not synergise well with the support spells anywhere near as well as every other unit available to us.

 

That's why unless there are some serious improvements made to the rubrics. I'll never take them.

 

Also, I really hope that there isn't any points increase for the tzaangors, because then I'll have to drop either 1 obliterator from my army or sacrifice all my brimstone horrors and I'd really rather not have to do either.

[BoomWolf]

Well, it appears pretty near every unit that is under 10 is getting a 1 point increase so far.

And every marine-based unit is getting a slight decrease.

 

 

So, I see the game shifting slightly more towards marine type units and less towards hordes-and rubrics are GREAT when it comes to firefights with marine type units.

[Sonoftherubric21]

That slight drop combined with Tzzangor and cultist increase makes Rubrics incredible.  Although I tend to mix my lists anyways so the points average out. 

 

Scarab Occult however....might just feature in the army quite a bit if this turns out to be true......

[WarriorFish]

Isn't that pretty much the same points drop for normal Terminators? Good if true, altogether if this does pan out then it could be a nice shot in the arm for more elite armies. My first squad of Rubrics is almost complete too...

[BoomWolf]

Given I usually run 15 Rubrics, 10 Scarabs and 0 Tzaangors I really hope this is true.

 

But, lots of things are unknown even assuming this is accurate.

[Marshlands]

Poking through my codex and Battlescribe a bit tonight, and something occurred to me that might be nice to help - Sorcerers. As in normal ones. Does anyone use them? Why would you when you have the Exalted option? The extra hitting skill and re-roll aura seems useful to me, but it's also a theme thing.

 

A Sorcerer who is the same as any other CSM spell flinger doesn't seem fitting for the Thousand Sons It seems a bit odd that Exalted Champions in C:CSM are a nice extra option for sub-commanders yet there's no equivalent here - a Sorcerer is simply a budget option?

 

I don't expect a change in CA of course, but this bugs me now :P

I use sorcerers, they're not as good, but a budget option. Personally I struggle to justify the exalteds as the extra combat proficiency doesn't always get used, they don't get any psychic benefits and the rerolls are easy to come by for TS.

 

I'd like the exalted sorcerer to get a buff that distinguishes it from the sorcerer, and also the DP as I can't ever justify the exalted sorcerer as anything over than a budget DP (the extra 40 pts versus a disc ES is a huge upgrade).