What are Thousand Sons hoping for from Chapter Approved?

[Sonoftherubric21]

I really see their tactics play out differently. Unless your going webway portal my rubric deployment will be straightforward where as SOTs can DS. Also utilizing them in cc where appropriate against specific units sets them apart.

 

I dont have a diverse meta and play Eldar quite a bit so my sample size research is not great though a unit of SOTs provides a great bully to apsects and other Eldar units with a warptiming Termie Sorcerer. They are situational and there is a need for them to be flexible like a cataphract, though with with DS, WT, even DMC can offer that.

 

I also play against DA and GK so a MVB to have str5 vs T4 buff I am hoping can do similar work.

 

That is fair, I often forget their melee ability and with some support they become relatively formidable. I do love fielding them I just hesitate in many of my list builds. 

[Heliomanes]

I've played pretty aggressively with my SOT. Using a big 10 man squad to maximize the utility we can get from the buffs we have available, and deploying them right in view of the enemy turn 1. That way they can draw fire from other things, and I have the option of black matter crystalling them into the enemy backfield if I want. Which my opponent has to plan for.

[Skerr]

A great tactic Helio, they are really opportunistic if you can manipulate your opponent. I deep strike and often have them in coming T1 into my own deployment zone to shore up defences and /or if my opponent went first and threatens my DZ or needed and wildcard objectives.

 

I would love to try a 10 man, do you go double src or ever test out the hwf? I assume you go double hellfyre? I know it adds up but at that point might as well. I could see 1 src and 1 hwf with 2 hfm.

 

What seems to always have me reconsider a 10 man sot or 20 man rubric is knowing i can split them in two for an additional caster.

[Paladin777]

I would recommend against 10 SOT’s and 20 rubrics in the same list. If they both get tarpitted in combat after popping the DMC you’re kinda done as you likely won’t have enough points leftover for other stuff. I’ve done it and it was fun, but not effective! One or the other is great!

[Heliomanes]

Good points. Yeah I usually splurge on double hellfyres and gatlings. Again, if you use veterans of the long war or prescience, it will buff all the weapons they have available in one go.

With the micro-smite, and using plenty of character casters, I must admit that I don't find the split up squads too tempting. I much prefer being able to max out the utility I get from the buffs and spells by casting them on a big unit. I usually get the -1 to hit spell on them, since it works in melee as well

[Ahzek451]

I really want to like the heldrakes for the look and the new fluff stating that the sons favor them, but man.... 

With the points discount, I tried using mine again and while I love the reach of the unit, it just does not do enough. And I realize the points drop for the drake was not dramatic enough to do anything....I suppose I wasn't sure what I was expecting.

 

But! I did try rocking a couple of the vortex beasts. I gotta say, I dig them. You get a couple of them right in the middle of a force and shoot of 2 mortal wounds to every unit in 9"....nice. 

[Prot]

How do you use the Vortex in a post CA world? Are the points that good for what you get? I just couldn't get into them on release.

 

I haven't pulled out my Heldrake either. It just feels like there's only so much mileage you can get out of a point discount.

[Ahzek451]

I was ok at 150 with the mutalith, but still not ecstatic. At 125, it was just enough for me to be ok with trying it again. First game with the new CA was against necrons also using the new CA discount. We both benefited from the discounts. He had a shooty list of 3 immortal squads, 6 destroyers, 9 tomb blades, the FW tesseract ark, overlord, cryptek, and triark stalker. I had 20 tzaangors, 10 rubrics with bolters, rhino, 5 rubrics with flamers, prince, ahriman(no disc), defiler, mutalith, 5 SoT, and a sorceror in termi armour. 

The crowning moment for the mutalith was when I warptimed, used diabolic strength, and prescience to have it crash into the main body of immortals where it proceeded to throw a mortal wound on 6 units (granted the living metal rule kinda took that away on a couple of those units), and then stampede into combat and cause havoc. Over the course a few turns, it just kept pulsing the mortal wounds to nearby units and eventually taking out the core of the enemy in melee. (granted, later on it received support from the prince and a handful of tzaangors) One mortal wound could be the difference in stopping a necron unit from coming back hah! Now just imagine having 2 of them. 250 pts. 

[Prot]

I was ok at 150 with the mutalith, but still not ecstatic. At 125, it was just enough for me to be ok with trying it again. First game with the new CA was against necrons also using the new CA discount. We both benefited from the discounts. He had a shooty list of 3 immortal squads, 6 destroyers, 9 tomb blades, the FW tesseract ark, overlord, cryptek, and triark stalker. I had 20 tzaangors, 10 rubrics with bolters, rhino, 5 rubrics with flamers, prince, ahriman(no disc), defiler, mutalith, 5 SoT, and a sorceror in termi armour. 

 

The crowning moment for the mutalith was when I warptimed, used diabolic strength, and prescience to have it crash into the main body of immortals where it proceeded to throw a mortal wound on 6 units (granted the living metal rule kinda took that away on a couple of those units), and then stampede into combat and cause havoc. Over the course a few turns, it just kept pulsing the mortal wounds to nearby units and eventually taking out the core of the enemy in melee. (granted, later on it received support from the prince and a handful of tzaangors) One mortal wound could be the difference in stopping a necron unit from coming back hah! Now just imagine having 2 of them. 250 pts. 

 

 

Interesting. It is tempting to really give it a go it just seems so... fickle, or hit and miss for the points.

[Panzer]

I really like the Mutalith on paper and think it might be worth it with the points drop, however what I can see coming is that the opponent sees a new big monster he doesn't know anything about on the table, hears "mortal wounds" and proceeds to nuke it from then on every game asap without ever letting it do its job. Kinda like a Distraction Carnifex lol

[Ahzek451]

 

I was ok at 150 with the mutalith, but still not ecstatic. At 125, it was just enough for me to be ok with trying it again. First game with the new CA was against necrons also using the new CA discount. We both benefited from the discounts. He had a shooty list of 3 immortal squads, 6 destroyers, 9 tomb blades, the FW tesseract ark, overlord, cryptek, and triark stalker. I had 20 tzaangors, 10 rubrics with bolters, rhino, 5 rubrics with flamers, prince, ahriman(no disc), defiler, mutalith, 5 SoT, and a sorceror in termi armour. 

 

The crowning moment for the mutalith was when I warptimed, used diabolic strength, and prescience to have it crash into the main body of immortals where it proceeded to throw a mortal wound on 6 units (granted the living metal rule kinda took that away on a couple of those units), and then stampede into combat and cause havoc. Over the course a few turns, it just kept pulsing the mortal wounds to nearby units and eventually taking out the core of the enemy in melee. (granted, later on it received support from the prince and a handful of tzaangors) One mortal wound could be the difference in stopping a necron unit from coming back hah! Now just imagine having 2 of them. 250 pts. 

 

 

Interesting. It is tempting to really give it a go it just seems so... fickle, or hit and miss for the points.

 

I'm inclined to agree. I mean, it was one battle. I would like to test drive it a few more times before making a solid judgement(and against other armies). And I have not really seen what it's like when severely wounded (bigger power range but harder to pass on dice) and I wanted to try the strat that lets you activate another power.

I am just trying to get stuff I never really used previously to work under the new point costs. And I missed seeing the forge world points changes so I may change my mind if I find anything that stands out. I was hoping maybe the achilles land raider may have dropped a bit (to rock that sweet 4++ and possibly get a 3++) otherwise try the basic, humble land raider for a squad of rubrics. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I would recommend against 10 SOT’s and 20 rubrics in the same list. If they both get tarpitted in combat after popping the DMC you’re kinda done as you likely won’t have enough points leftover for other stuff. I’ve done it and it was fun, but not effective! One or the other is great!

I'm actually currently running 15 SOT's (3x5, 2x Soulreaper, 1x Hvy Warpflamer, 3x Hellfyre), 20 Rubrics (2x Soulreaper, 8x Warpflamer, 1x Warpflame Pistol/Force Stave, 9x Inferno Boltgun), 30 Tzaangors, 20 Tzaangors, Foot Prince, Winged Prince, Ahriman (no disc), and a Terminator Sorcerer.

 

Ahriman and foot Prince w/ the Rubrics, other characters wherever I need them.

 

Earlier version with old points worked great because there were so many ways to clear tarpits and/or countercharge, plus hellish anti-infantry firepower and Invulns on every single model. I expect it to work well in the new missions where drops and tabling aren't a thing and there are a lot of objectives. Plus now I have more Tzaangors and 8 Warpflamers in the Rubrics.

[Raven1]

The direct only price point is just too much for me as far as vortex beasts go. I really want to like them though. I havent pulled out my heldrake since the beginning of 8th. Not bad but too many other good choices. Maybe with the points reduction...for though its total lack of -1 hit because it lacks that high speed rule or whatever.

 

I watched the Table Top Tactics review of Chapter Approved and they said its the missions not the point decreases that are really going to change the meta. The changes to how you score points whar is going to force you to look at alternative units.

 

Im loving the reduction to warpflamers and src. I wish it 1 per 5 though. Too bad you can deepstrike and warpflame though. Cheaper rubrics does make me want to do a ru-brick and VotLW something into simtherins.

 

I also agree with TTT that marines chaos and loyalist are basically dead. If you want to run power armor your choices are Deathwatch, Primaris, Death Guard or our TS.

 

I would still like to roll with a brigade of TS a total mix of everything just seems like a lot of fun.

[themortalgod]

My 2¢ is that, at a glance, the pts reductions to thematic key units like Rubrics and Scarab Termies seem really nice but I'm not sure how it will actually play out yet, with such a widespread reduction in pts across the board for so many armies I am not sure how much of a pts decrease it actually was relative to everything else. If the ratios remain relatively similar to what they were before the pts decreases don't mean much. I will have to try them out and see. I have a feeling those units will still be pretty inefficient but I hope I am wrong. They are among my favorites in the entire game.

[Heliomanes]

Fair point. I'm genuinely curious about what kind of list variation we'll see now, if any. Ahriman with a troupe of Daemon Princes and goats still seems like the strongest choice to build around, but perhaps the other choices become a bit less of a self imposed limitation than before. A man can dream.

[BoomWolf]

Well, rubrics and scarabs will probably see some rise in use.

10 man rubric squad with a soulreaper is only 194 [was 220] points now (196 [222] if you don't upgrade to an axe, but I really can't not take one...), while a 5 man flamer team is 128 [159] (130 [161] with axe upgrade, 133 [167] with axe and flamepistol upgrades, 135 [167] with axe and plaspistol)

Also, with the reduction they are even more in the fun place of resistant to small arms yet rather wasteful to target big guns at.

 

Brutes and helforged dread variants, won't. they are still better in any other legion than ours, ours are basically identical to non-legion. if you want some, you are taking a detachment of another legion to get them buffed (DG, WE, RC and AL all give them good boons, though WE cant be tzeentch to mix well with our princes. I guess EC sonic dreads are also awesome but equally irrelevant to us.)

 

Tanks will be tanks. the discount on twinlas preds is nice, but not big enough to increase use.

 

Daemon engines got a big drop, and I can see the use of them rise, but mostly the defiler.

A scourge/reaper/combibolt defiler is down to mere 144 [169], and still hits like a truck as always. a lasher mauler at 132 [152] is nice and all, but the extra 2" does not compete with the higher wound count non-degrading S value (that is higher even when unharmed) and better weapons overall (though lasher vs scourge is close) and utility fire until you hit melee. defilers are now the mother of all can openers as nothing remotly at they pricerange can afford taking one to the face (though, its vulnerable to pitting, good thing rubrics excel at clearing most tar)

Heldrakes still too expensive, the 160 triple-plasm forgefiend is still too CP hungry methinks, as it needs to negate it's move penalty.

[Ahzek451]

How about forgeworld items and land raiders of varying kinds? 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Well, rubrics and scarabs will probably see some rise in use.

10 man rubric squad with a soulreaper is only 194 [was 220] points now (196 [222] if you don't upgrade to an axe, but I really can't not take one...), while a 5 man flamer team is 128 [159] (130 [161] with axe upgrade, 133 [167] with axe and flamepistol upgrades, 135 [167] with axe and plaspistol)

Also, with the reduction they are even more in the fun place of resistant to small arms yet rather wasteful to target big guns at.

 

Brutes and helforged dread variants, won't. they are still better in any other legion than ours, ours are basically identical to non-legion. if you want some, you are taking a detachment of another legion to get them buffed (DG, WE, RC and AL all give them good boons, though WE cant be tzeentch to mix well with our princes. I guess EC sonic dreads are also awesome but equally irrelevant to us.)

 

Tanks will be tanks. the discount on twinlas preds is nice, but not big enough to increase use.

 

Daemon engines got a big drop, and I can see the use of them rise, but mostly the defiler.

A scourge/reaper/combibolt defiler is down to mere 144 [169], and still hits like a truck as always. a lasher mauler at 132 [152] is nice and all, but the extra 2" does not compete with the higher wound count non-degrading S value (that is higher even when unharmed) and better weapons overall (though lasher vs scourge is close) and utility fire until you hit melee. defilers are now the mother of all can openers as nothing remotly at they pricerange can afford taking one to the face (though, its vulnerable to pitting, good thing rubrics excel at clearing most tar)

Heldrakes still too expensive, the 160 triple-plasm forgefiend is still too CP hungry methinks, as it needs to negate it's move penalty.

Having one Hades/Hades/Plasma Fiend for 160 seems to be nice (or a Hades/Hades/Jaws Fiend for 140 if you have a Herald or something nearby). It doesn't need to move nearly as much and it benefits quite a bit from Flickering Flames, being able to wound a Knight on 3's and most of its likelier targets (Predators, Razorbacks, Trukks, etc.) on 2's. Plant feet, open up with Daemonforge, and you're good to go. One CP per turn isn't that bad. Or you can just stick an Exalted with Prescience nearby if you feel like allocating that power instead of spending CP. You'll hit on 3's, rerolling 1's and wound well enough that you can skate without a reroll there.

 

For everything else, there's Defilers. :)

[Prot]

Yea I really want to field my Defilers now ( I have two of the Daemon units I use counts as Defilers... I just Thousand got they looked more daemonic and are still wysiwyg).

 

I don’t know much about Forgeworld... can anyone tell me if the Decimator with dual soul burners is better or worse? I have one on my painting table and would rather not spend too much ch time on it if things got worse.

[Tokugawa]

Yea I really want to field my Defilers now

I don’t know much about Forgeworld... can anyone tell me if the Decimator with dual soul burners is better or worse? I have one on my painting table and would rather not spend too much ch time on it if things got worse.

After the huuuuge points hike in CA2017, they are not attractive.

[Prot]

 

Yea I really want to field my Defilers now

I don’t know much about Forgeworld... can anyone tell me if the Decimator with dual soul burners is better or worse? I have one on my painting table and would rather not spend too much ch time on it if things got worse.

After the huuuuge points hike in CA2017, they are not attractive.

 

 

My question was - did the Decimator or the weapons change in CA 2018?

 

I see Soulburners are 30 but I don't know if that refers to Soulburner Petards. The Decimator is not listed. I imagine everyone is hopping on the butcher cannon reductions.

 

I do think Defilers could be a heck of a lot of fun now. I'm trying to squeeze 2 in my list.

 

+EDIT+

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Okay this is hard for me but I'm pulling my Soulburned Decimator for a test tonight.... putting in 2 Forgefiends to scare the crud out of whatever I face. lol

 

Also did some juggling and savings in the list overall for my 2K are about 184 (I made so many changes it's hard to say exactly).

 

I also found some changes that would allow me to try a Hades Autocannon Forgefiend as well.

 

I wanted to put in the 3xEcto-Fiend as well but by my calculation it is 160 (down from 197), however there is a slight reduction in the Hellforged Sicaran to 150. And that puts my loadout of dual las, and Hvy Bolter to 210 vs 220 I believe. 

 

So at 210 I trust my Sicaran to do some work vs the 160 EctoFiend.

[Skerr]

I am really curious to hear how things go with the fiends.

 

I was very happy with the flexibility I gained on both a 2000 and 1500 pt list. I did not get bummed due to needing to cut something as was the case pre CA18.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I own one of each of Mutalith, Defiler, Hades Forgefiend, and Maulerfiend. 
 

I also own 2 dreadnoughts (plasma/missile, las/missile).

 

I fully intend to continue using them, but the point decreases were drastic and very welcome. I don't own many regular "tanks" for the thousand sons, were the daemon engine legion as of 8th edition.  Add to this they come with innate invul saves and the ability to be buffed by our Daemon spell lore and its a recipe for fantastic. 

 

Daemonforge, prescience, flickering fire, the RR1 aura, buffs for invul save, chaos ignore movement penalty shooting buff if needed.

 

Just kinda falls together nicely, my most recent list is 50 rubrics + 4 engines. (Ahriman/prince hqs) and with this current point decreases it came together nicely.  (coming out to well below 2k post-CA so I have more to add!) 

[Skerr]

What 4?

[Sonoftherubric21]

What 4?

 

The engines?  1 mauler, 1 forge, 1 defiler, and 1 "mutalith" which is basically in all respects a daemon engine minus keyword as its stats are identical (and even has the 5++ lol!) 

 

Been a standard design in my "rubric heavy" lists. Now, this is even truer than before. The point differential post-CA is slightly over 100 points saved for just my engines.