"Primarization" of Future Special Characters

[Kastor Krieg]

The amount of "sky is falling" is too damn high.

Every time something like this happens about half the community races at breakneck pace ahead to be the first guy who says "WE TOLD YOU SO, SUCKERS! You are being LIED TO and you're BUYING IT!" and annoy the other half of the community, scare them into losing fun and faith in their army choice and do general damage to their morale. All of that just for the dopamine shot of feeling like they "were right all along, hah!". It's disgusting.

 

The potential options are:

• GW is absolutely truthful and transparent in their communication and "OG Marines" are here to stay. Primaris are developed alongside them and this way both the Company and the Community have a cake and eat it. New models, new rules, refreshed revenue flow, still all the drivers of the last two decades of the game are still in it. It's a win-win.
• GW are truthful at face value but omit saying that there's a long-term planned obsolescence. The molds degrade, will not be renewed, more and more "OG Marine" models will go Mail Order while still being supported in Codices, further down the road becoming "an index / White Dwarf army". They avoid most of the backlash, milk the line until it's dry without reinvesting in it, community still gets at least 2-3 editions to play with their Marines before Primaris take over in full. This is a win-meh.
• GW are lying to our faces, OG Marines get dropped in 9ed into MO / index status straight away. Primaris are the only Marines in fluff in M42+ from that point onwards. GW kill all the steady revenue that's still flowing strong from the SM, suffer a huge backlash from the community (and then stock investors, stock price are affected by the negative publicity), this will be worldwide news in popculture if they kill the trademark faction of the setting. This is not Tomb Kings or Bretonnia, they would be killing Imperium in WFB or Stormcast in AoS. This is a lose-lose scenario.

Now go on and keep telling me the sky is falling. If it does, then the company we've just seen evolve and mature so much recently, hasn't learned :cuss and deserves the revenue loss and all the backlash in the world. In the meantime, I have 60+ Imperial Fists in Mk3 to paint.

[Lemondish]

The amount of "sky is falling" is too damn high.

 

Every time something like this happens about half the community races at breakneck pace ahead to be the first guy who says "WE TOLD YOU SO, SUCKERS! You are being LIED TO and you're BUYING IT!" and annoy the other half of the community, scare them into losing fun and faith in their army choice and do general damage to their morale. All of that just for the dopamine shot of feeling like they "were right all along, hah!". It's disgusting.

 

The potential options are:

• GW is absolutely truthful and transparent in their communication and "OG Marines" are here to stay. Primaris are developed alongside them and this way both the Company and the Community have a cake and eat it. New models, new rules, refreshed revenue flow, still all the drivers of the last two decades of the game are still in it. It's a win-win.
• GW are truthful at face value but omit saying that there's a long-term planned obsolescence. The molds degrade, will not be renewed, more and more "OG Marine" models will go Mail Order while still being supported in Codices, further down the road becoming "an index / White Dwarf army". They avoid most of the backlash, milk the line until it's dry without reinvesting in it, community still gets at least 2-3 editions to play with their Marines before Primaris take over in full. This is a win-meh.
• GW are lying to our faces, OG Marines get dropped in 9ed into MO / index status straight away. Primaris are the only Marines in fluff in M42+ from that point onwards. GW kill all the steady revenue that's still flowing strong from the SM, suffer a huge backlash from the community (and then stock investors, stock price are affected by the negative publicity), this will be worldwide news in popculture if they kill the trademark faction of the setting. This is not Tomb Kings or Bretonnia, they would be killing Imperium in WFB or Stormcast in AoS. This is a lose-lose scenario.

Now go on and keep telling me the sky is falling. If it does, then the company we've just seen evolve and mature so much recently, hasn't learned :cuss and deserves the revenue loss and all the backlash in the world. In the meantime, I have 60+ Imperial Fists in Mk3 to paint.

Hear, hear

[Captain Idaho]

That's pretty dismissive.

 

Like I've said before; GW could fix this problem fairly easily with something more concrete like a new release that isn't Primaris.

 

Otherwise the onus is on them to prove to us they can be trusted when all the actions and evidence points in the other direction.

 

And why should they prove anything? We're their worried customers that's why. A large number of worried customers. These sorts of numbers shouldn't be ignored just because there are people who like what they're doing. There's too many unhappy.

 

It's a myth you can't please everyone so you shouldn't try. You absolutely should try your hardest to please as many customers as you can in business. Otherwise they cease to be customers.

[Kastor Krieg]

What's truly dismissive of the rest of the community is the doom and gloom worst-case-scenario "your models are obsolete NOW! Why aren't you gnashing teeth with us!?" stance.

It's already been noted in this very thread - whatever GW say or release, that part of the community will never be satisfied, will always be suspicious of ulterior motives and will always sour the mood with the doom and gloom. We've been there before, many, many times.

[Blindhamster]

That's pretty dismissive.

 

Like I've said before; GW could fix this problem fairly easily with something more concrete like a new release that isn't Primaris.

 

Otherwise the onus is on them to prove to us they can be trusted when all the actions and evidence points in the other direction.

 

And why should they prove anything? We're their worried customers that's why. A large number of worried customers. These sorts of numbers shouldn't be ignored just because there are people who like what they're doing. There's too many unhappy.

 

It's a myth you can't please everyone so you shouldn't try. You absolutely should try your hardest to please as many customers as you can in business. Otherwise they cease to be customers.

 

Is it dismissive? or is it a case of people are jumping to a conclusion about what could happen in the future without any evidence? Maybe current marines will go the way of the dodo in the medium to near future, maybe they wont. We were categorically told at the seminar on the weekend that they aren't going anywhere, but also told that nothing is forever. We know they have plans spanning 3 years, so i think current marines are safe for at least that long, and as others have said, they'll likely be around longer as they'll want to make a ROI for the various new kits released over the last 2 years.

 

do you have empirical evidence that there are "too many" unhappy for them not to do anything about it?

 

Why do they need to release something for old style space marines to prove they arent going to get rid of what they currently have?

 

Whilst its true that they should try and please customers, that doesn't mean they have to follow our every whim, this goes both ways. If a non primaris release comes out? cool! I hope its some cool new current marines. But I want primaris stuff because I prefer the models by a huge margin (to the extent that i was going to a game on the weekend and considered taking a mixed force... looked at my old marines and just couldn't do it).

 

Something may happen, something may not, we'll find out eventually. For now everyone should enjoy the elements of the hobby they have and avoid doom and gloom till there is proof of its necessity.

[Ishagu]

Customers never really know what they want.

 

Nokia did what customer's asked: long battery life phones that could take a hit.

 

Apple did what nobody asked for: a big screen on a flimsy device with no better life.

 

One of the above is more successful than the other. Why don't we show a bit of trust in GW. They have an artistic vision for their model line.

[Panzer]

Eh Apple won by marketing. Nokias marketing was just the regular stuff everyone does. Saying customers don't know what they want is at times true but not something you should blindly follow or else you end up like Kirby.

[PeteySödes]

I think writing off peoples concerns as fanboy rage is fairly dismissive yea. Im definitely not in the sky is falling camp but I get why people are mad.

 

I mean you tell me how you feel after you've been working on a model for months only to have it indexed 2 weeks after completion. I do feel like the headsmens axe is hanging over my OG marine projects and its not a great feeling. So I do have faith in GW and they are doing a great job coming back from the dark days but it's absolutely on them the show good faith IMO.

[Captain Idaho]

Evidence? Like the fact a source trusted by many has personally and privately me that GW confirmed "we have no plans to release new classic Marines in the future"?

 

Or the replacement of Calgar with a Primaris version (admitted that it'll still be in the Codex but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that version being unsupported like the power armour version)?

 

Or the past actions that were not that long ago? I forgive but I won't forget.

 

To me, it seems like a compromise of GW would be to actually show support for the classic Marines that GW told everyone were here to stay.

 

I think most would be happy with that kind of reassurance if the focus is on Primaris

[Lemondish]

That's pretty dismissive.

 

Like I've said before; GW could fix this problem fairly easily with something more concrete like a new release that isn't Primaris.

 

Otherwise the onus is on them to prove to us they can be trusted when all the actions and evidence points in the other direction.

 

And why should they prove anything? We're their worried customers that's why. A large number of worried customers. These sorts of numbers shouldn't be ignored just because there are people who like what they're doing. There's too many unhappy.

 

It's a myth you can't please everyone so you shouldn't try. You absolutely should try your hardest to please as many customers as you can in business. Otherwise they cease to be customers.

 

What type of release, though? FW is still releasing miniMarines. Space Marine Heroes is a brand new miniMarine release worldwide. What magical combination of pomp and circumstance is needed to calm this ocean of doubt and uncertainty? And for how long? What's the ratio needed? One normal marine release for every Primaris release? For every two? 

 

Why is it that the direct, unequivocal message that normal marines aren't going anywhere isn't accepted at face value, while at the same time the community seems so quick to accept a vague alternative explanation based off nothing but manufactured dread and whispers in the night? On one hand, the actual company tells you what they plan, while the other is a wild land of baseless speculation and fear mongering - so why have you picked the latter? That's madness. 

 

Perhaps the reason it sounds dismissive is because there's literally no basis by which your concerns can be assuaged because, as we suspect, the goalposts seem to be dancing. 

 

Codex marines survived seeing Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves grow. Each of those in turn survived seeing Deathwatch and Grey Knights grow. All marines everywhere will survive seeing Primaris grow. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Forge World is no longer releasing mini-marines and has purged its stock of all but a few mini-marine kits. Also, the message isn't accepted at face value because the studio is filled with lying sacks of who brought us Centurions and disco Guilliman. Only a fool would believe them when they say old marines aren't going anywhere.

[PeteySödes]

 

That's pretty dismissive.

 

Like I've said before; GW could fix this problem fairly easily with something more concrete like a new release that isn't Primaris.

 

Otherwise the onus is on them to prove to us they can be trusted when all the actions and evidence points in the other direction.

 

And why should they prove anything? We're their worried customers that's why. A large number of worried customers. These sorts of numbers shouldn't be ignored just because there are people who like what they're doing. There's too many unhappy.

 

It's a myth you can't please everyone so you shouldn't try. You absolutely should try your hardest to please as many customers as you can in business. Otherwise they cease to be customers.

 

What type of release, though? FW is still releasing miniMarines. Space Marine Heroes is a brand new miniMarine release worldwide. What magical combination of pomp and circumstance is needed to calm this ocean of doubt and uncertainty? And for how long? What's the ratio needed? One normal marine release for every Primaris release? For every two? 

 

Why is it that the direct, unequivocal message that normal marines aren't going anywhere isn't accepted at face value, while at the same time the community seems so quick to accept a vague alternative explanation based off nothing but manufactured dread and whispers in the night? On one hand, the actual company tells you what they plan, while the other is a wild land of baseless speculation and fear mongering - so why have you picked the latter? That's madness. 

 

Perhaps the reason it sounds dismissive is because there's literally no basis by which your concerns can be assuaged because, as we suspect, the goalposts seem to be dancing. 

 

Codex marines survived seeing Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves grow. Each of those in turn survived seeing Deathwatch and Grey Knights grow. All marines everywhere will survive seeing Primaris grow. 

 

 

I don't think there is NO evidence for this feeling. Lots of units have been getting indexed which (yes "the diagram") likely have maybe a year? Im not really feeling better about them including OG marines in a Barnes and Noble box game either sorry.

 

Forgeworld axed a ton of stuff right when they got rolled into the main game which is weird too. So no theres not some weird conspiracy theory document smoking gun but its a lot of little things that add up to a lot of peoples significant time, monetary, and emotional investment being possibly in danger.

 

I would really like a responce commensurate to my(our) investment in the hobby. Not just anecdotal "Nah they're not going anywhere" handwaves.

[justicarius6]

 

Here's my thoughts on the matter from elsewhere:

I've had a chance to consider my position and see how I feel about it.

I don't like Calgar being updated. The old model was great and has a fantastic pose. This is unnecessary and the writing is on the wall for Marines which I don't approve of. All my conversions I were proud of, all the army I collected and finished... All on the chopping block.

I'm pretty much gutted. I didn't want Primaris. I don't like how my army is being phased out as it cost me far too much money to just be "out of print". It's a cynical money grab that wasn't needed. New models can easily be produced for Classic Marines and a starter kit would make the same sales and growth.

What GW wanted to do is increase the size of Marines so people would think they look odd next to older models, so people will replace the older models completely.

Primaris are not for me. I won't be buying into it and for me at least GW has lost my sales.

It’s happened before such as when new Marine kits were released with third edition replacing the Marine kits from second edition. Does anyone still have any of the RT Marines?

I've re-aquired a lot of old Rogue Trader marines trying to re-capture my youth! :P

 

And yes, there is always rage. I remember when they went to those first 2nd edition marines and how damn awful and ugly those things were with the crappy boxy bolters and paint schemes full of ugly pastel shades suddenly everywhere. But these new primaris a far cry better than that leap; they're well posed, well modelled and look in the main very good. There are things I'm not keen on sure, the repulsor tanks look ridiculous, inceptors have a lot of things going wrong with them and the models are not great for easy conversion. On the whole though, primaris for me are a definite upgrade to the whole range.

[Captain Idaho]

Also read my last post. The Studio have no plans to release new classic Marines.

 

There's plenty of potential for new kits. It's only a lack of imagination that supports the idea that Classic Marines can't have anything new.

 

Hell, make Classic Marines open the vaults to HH wargear and reuse Breachers and Destroyers again. That would make plenty of people happy.

[Marshal Rohr]

We can only dream. Hopefully they'll do a Primaris Breacher unit and then I can do Breachers in the current timeline, Badab, and the Heresy ;)

[Kastor Krieg]

Also read my last post. The Studio have no plans to release new classic Marines.

Says who, your Secret Source In GW? The same company that just released three classic Marines in Blackstone Fortress? The same one that got moaned at for years and years for releasing only Space Marines and no new Xenos miniatures, so stopped for a bit and now they're releasing Orks, Genecult and others?

 

Rrrrrrrrrrright.

[Lemondish]

Also read my last post. The Studio have no plans to release new classic Marines.

 

There's plenty of potential for new kits. It's only a lack of imagination that supports the idea that Classic Marines can't have anything new.

 

Hell, make Classic Marines open the vaults to HH wargear and reuse Breachers and Destroyers again. That would make plenty of people happy.

 

So in this scenario, adding 40k rules to HH FW miniatures would be enough support? That's..pretty easily doable, I think. 

 

I will say that your last post was intentionally ignored because I don't really think we want to get into discussing what 'inside anonymous sources' have claimed or said. That isn't constructive, helpful, or in any way verifiable. 

[PeteySödes]

 

Also read my last post. The Studio have no plans to release new classic Marines.

Says who, your Secret Source In GW? The same company that just released three classic Marines in Blackstone Fortress? The same one that got moaned at for years and years for releasing only Space Marines and no new Xenos miniatures, so stopped for a bit and now they're releasing Orks, Genecult and others?

 

Rrrrrrrrrrright.

 

 

Those are chaos marines, the whole fear is that they're killing Og marines to decouple the PA armies so that example isn't the best.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I think the discontinuation of some resin marks for HH by FW is a poor indicator of the future of classic marines. The decision rather stems from FW's limited resources and the fact that the releases of the Calth and Prospero boxes completely gutted sales of resin equivalents.

[Marshal Rohr]

Those are chaos marines, and Primaris sized. Not very reassuring for oldmarine fans. Especially considering if they rescale oldmarine chaos marines, it proves they could've done it and kept terminator armor and old armor marks.

[Scribe]

The amount of "sky is falling" is too damn high.

 

Every time something like this happens about half the community races at breakneck pace ahead to be the first guy who says "WE TOLD YOU SO, SUCKERS! You are being LIED TO and you're BUYING IT!" and annoy the other half of the community, scare them into losing fun and faith in their army choice and do general damage to their morale. All of that just for the dopamine shot of feeling like they "were right all along, hah!". It's disgusting.

 

The potential options are:

• GW is absolutely truthful and transparent in their communication and "OG Marines" are here to stay. Primaris are developed alongside them and this way both the Company and the Community have a cake and eat it. New models, new rules, refreshed revenue flow, still all the drivers of the last two decades of the game are still in it. It's a win-win.
• GW are truthful at face value but omit saying that there's a long-term planned obsolescence. The molds degrade, will not be renewed, more and more "OG Marine" models will go Mail Order while still being supported in Codices, further down the road becoming "an index / White Dwarf army". They avoid most of the backlash, milk the line until it's dry without reinvesting in it, community still gets at least 2-3 editions to play with their Marines before Primaris take over in full. This is a win-meh.
• GW are lying to our faces, OG Marines get dropped in 9ed into MO / index status straight away. Primaris are the only Marines in fluff in M42+ from that point onwards. GW kill all the steady revenue that's still flowing strong from the SM, suffer a huge backlash from the community (and then stock investors, stock price are affected by the negative publicity), this will be worldwide news in popculture if they kill the trademark faction of the setting. This is not Tomb Kings or Bretonnia, they would be killing Imperium in WFB or Stormcast in AoS. This is a lose-lose scenario.

Now go on and keep telling me the sky is falling. If it does, then the company we've just seen evolve and mature so much recently, hasn't learned and deserves the revenue loss and all the backlash in the world. In the meantime, I have 60+ Imperial Fists in Mk3 to paint.

 

What 'breakneck pace' are you even talking about man? We are well down the road here now. Primaris came out how long ago?

 

Just for clarity however, this is the option they are taking.

 

"GW are truthful at face value but omit saying that there's a long-term planned obsolescence. The molds degrade, will not be renewed, more and more "OG Marine" models will go Mail Order while still being supported in Codices, further down the road becoming "an index / White Dwarf army". They avoid most of the backlash, milk the line until it's dry without reinvesting in it, community still gets at least 2-3 editions to play with their Marines before Primaris take over in full. This is a win-meh."

 

They would be foolish not to milk people as long as possible, and I dont think anyone looking at Primaris and their statements objectively has any doubt this is what they are doing.

 

I mean would it have been impossible to release normal marines in a 10 pack all equipped with the same weapon, like 30K units and Primaris? No. 

[Blindhamster]

not releasing new marine kits isn't the same as dropping current marine kits.

Why does GW HAVE to release new marine kits?

and as Robbienw would tell everyone, we've technically seen more classic marines released than primaris marines in the last year (all the space marine heroes vs a few lieutenants).
 

If current marines go, they'll go. There's literally nothing anyone can do about it other than not buy primaris, which is also well within your rights to do.

But if the design team needed a change of pace so they could do something different, then thats great for them, sure you or i or someone else may have wanted something different, but they chose to re-imagine the marine silhouette, which is their right to do.

Every piece of information we currently have (except supposed anonymous sources which, as noted, cannot be confirmed or denied for veracity) says they're not removing current marines any time soon, they no doubt know it would be silly to do so for a while at least.

 

I have an "OG Marine" army too, a pretty huge one, if they go, i'll be sad because whilst right now I don't particularly like looking at them, i like the option of being able to pick them up again at some point to play with.

 

p.s. yeah I absolutely think current marines will go eventually, but im inclined to take them at face value for now and assume that they have at least a few years of life left in them.

[Robbienw]

The new chaos marines are absolutely not primaris sized, they are smaller.  They are sized like deathwatch, space marine heroes and thousand sons.

 

FW is absolutely still releasing 'mini-marines'.  The recently released alpha legion praetors, the upcoming blood angels praetors, and the two new consuls (the consul-praevian and the sniper consul) will be coming soon.  There will be the unique BA units as well soon, and upcoming WS and DA specific stuff. 

[Panzer]

Those are chaos marines, and Primaris sized.

They aren't Primaris sized. They are Deathwatch size which are still regular Marines. Doesn't change the fact that it was a terrible argument tho.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ok, so do you want to come to my house and hold them in your hand and tell me that the Chaos marine isn't bigger than a deathwatch marine if only a mm smaller than the Primaris? I have calipers?