The inevitable Primaris Dante

[Jorre]

So we all know by now Dante is getting the primaris treatment!

 

What are your hopes and dreams beyond a cool new model!

 

Personally, I will be disappointed if they do not use this as an opportunity to do something really special! His fluff totally justifies it!

 

I want to see

1. A sick new model

2. Truely reflective new rules (not just a chapter master with pistol and a average axe)

3. Some cool new fluff leading up to him being primaris'd

4. Some cool sanguinary guard upgrades as a body guard (primaris sanguinary guard)

5. MORE MORE!!!

 

Any thoughts?

[Xenith]

I'm just wondering what all that guff about "not needing to hide behind my brother's face" was at the ends of devastation of Baal.

 

I hope they don't remove the death mask.

 

Otherwise, as usual, it's a buy from me. Doubly so for mephiston. Triply so for corbulo.

[Jorre]

If they redo Corby I bloody well hope he gets some better wargear!

[Kastor Krieg]

How exactly do we "know"?

[Halandaar]

How exactly do we "know"?

 

We don't, but some chatter from the Vigilus Open Day with one of the designers went something along the lines of;

• "Are there going to be other characters made into Primaris, like Dante?"
• "That would be cool wouldn't it" *sly grin*

It is still drawing big conclusions from small hints though, so we certainly don't "know" it's happening. It just feels highly likely.

 

With regards to the model, I am actually a little worried about what a Primaris Dante would look like. For me he's the hardest of the 4 "big four" Chapter Masters to adapt because he requires a type of armour Primaris don't currently have; jump-capable, but also more streamlined and graceful than Inceptor suits. I just really hope they focus on what makes Dante cool, and not what makes Inceptors cool.

[Michaelus_Raphael]

So we all know by now Dante is getting the primaris treatment!

 

What are your hopes and dreams beyond a cool new model!

 

Personally, I will be disappointed if they do not use this as an opportunity to do something really special! His fluff totally justifies it!

 

I want to see

1. A sick new model

2. Truely reflective new rules (not just a chapter master with pistol and a average axe)

3. Some cool new fluff leading up to him being primaris'd

4. Some cool sanguinary guard upgrades as a body guard (primaris sanguinary guard)

5. MORE MORE!!!

 

Any thoughts?

 

So I love this idea but I kind of have a problem with this it. Much though I would love cool new Primaris-ised (is that a word?) characters for BA, I don't think they would actually go through with it for a couple of reasons.

 

1. BA are notoriously vain , to the point of almost being obsessed with beauty and physical perfection. They're also quite prideful. Wouldn't volunteering for the upgrade suggest that they were somehow deficient? I'm sure that would rub against the BA psyche.

2. In a similar theme, I wonder if accepting the upgrade would be viewed as taking them further away from image of Sanguinius?

3. Sanguinius was unflinchingly loyal to Papa Smurf but I always got the impression that the BA weren't necessarily that fond of him or the Ultrasmurfs. The Codex was never fully adopted and grudgingly at that.

4. Didn't I read somewhere that Primaris marines grown from Sanguinius' geneseed were free from the flaw? While the fanboy in me loves the idea that my "doomed" chapter is now fixed, there's a part of me that worries that this eventually means there'll be no more Death Company.

[Xenith]

How exactly do we "know"?

 

We do not know, know, but can make logical assumptions based on the precedent set by GW's behaviours and the miniatures market. 

• GW has to make models of it's IP or loses the exclusivity/protection - that's why they have to make primarchs/all the weird stuff from the universe, because if they dont, anyone can. 
• GW is phasing out older models previously only in finecast and has been for the past several years - plastic Grimnar, Ulrik, Khârn, Typhus, Ahriman, etc.
• It's probably uneconomic for GW to have some models in metal, some in finecast, etc. That's why the finecast ones are made to order in batches when there is sufficient demand. GW would want to get rid of them. 
• Key models to have in new plastic and available in stores would be faction leaders: Calgar, Tigurius, Njal, Azrael, Ezekiel, Dante, Mephiston are all prime(aris) candidates. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Xenith

[Xenith]

 

 

 

So I love this idea but I kind of have a problem with this it. Much though I would love cool new Primaris-ised (is that a word?) characters for BA, I don't think they would actually go through with it for a couple of reasons.

 

1. BA are notoriously vain , to the point of almost being obsessed with beauty and physical perfection. They're also quite prideful. Wouldn't volunteering for the upgrade suggest that they were somehow deficient? I'm sure that would rub against the BA psyche.

My view is that the BA are self sacrificing. They will torture themselves via Primarisation if it means they can fight the foes of mankind better. Primaris were already known to be the Emperor's vision, and Astartes 1.0 have been improved upon. If they want perfection, they get embiggened.

 

2. In a similar theme, I wonder if accepting the upgrade would be viewed as taking them further away from image of Sanguinius?

Possible. One wonders how Cawl made BA  primaris when we know that BA geneseed is activcated by drinking the blood of Sanguinius. Has he found a way around this? Or will they be cursed like the Lamenters?

 

3. Sanguinius was unflinchingly loyal to Papa Smurf the Imperium but I always got the impression that the BA weren't necessarily that fond of him or the Ultrasmurfs. The Codex was never fully adopted and grudgingly at that.

Fixed that for you. That explains the paradoxical relationship you see with Guilliman/the codex. Guilliman represents the Imperium. The Codex was not the Emperor's vision for the Astartes, so was met with resistance. 

 

4. Didn't I read somewhere that Primaris marines grown from Sanguinius' geneseed were free from the flaw? While the fanboy in me loves the idea that my "doomed" chapter is now fixed, there's a part of me that worries that this eventually means there'll be no more Death Company.

Initially, yes, however remember that the first batch of Primaris were made shortly after the heresy then frozen. This was before the flaw really manifested itself. The BA codex has an example of BA Primaris losing all control and literally ripping apart their foes, akin to death company. The fate of these marines is not discussed. 

 

[Wakkomaster]

(…).

 

I hope they don't remove the death mask.

 

(…).

 

When you think about Dante you think about a jump pack, a mean power axe and his mask, so I find very unlikely they'll scrap the whole thing. I think they might go the same route as they did with Calgar and give both a helm/mask and a bare-head option (possibily while holding the mask in hand), it's quite common these days (Guilliman, Calgar, the new Primaris characters).

 

 

 

(…)

 

With regards to the model, I am actually a little worried about what a Primaris Dante would look like. For me he's the hardest of the 4 "big four" Chapter Masters to adapt because he requires a type of armour Primaris don't currently have; jump-capable, but also more streamlined and graceful than Inceptor suits. I just really hope they focus on what makes Dante cool, and not what makes Inceptors cool.

 

 

I had the very same thought. However, with Dante being Dante (he's one in a million, literally) the designer can come up with some crazy prototype of jump-capable, artificier Mark X power armour for just him (and maybe his Honor Guard), so he can still wear his Death Mask and use his axe. Having him wear an inceptor suit would probably change his available gear too and that would be bad.

 

But that's just my opinion 

[Michaelus_Raphael]

 

 

1. BA are notoriously vain , to the point of almost being obsessed with beauty and physical perfection. They're also quite prideful. Wouldn't volunteering for the upgrade suggest that they were somehow deficient? I'm sure that would rub against the BA psyche.

My view is that the BA are self sacrificing. They will torture themselves via Primarisation if it means they can fight the foes of mankind better. Primaris were already known to be the Emperor's vision, and Astartes 1.0 have been improved upon. If they want perfection, they get embiggened.

This is an excellent point and I think it fits in well with my head-canon. I must have missed where Primaris were revealed to be the Emperor's vision for the next step, are you talking about Deliverance Lost or something else in the fluff?

 

2. In a similar theme, I wonder if accepting the upgrade would be viewed as taking them further away from image of Sanguinius?

Possible. One wonders how Cawl made BA  primaris when we know that BA geneseed is activcated by drinking the blood of Sanguinius. Has he found a way around this? Or will they be cursed like the Lamenters?

After the Heresy, Guilliman gave Cawl the Sangprimus Portum, which contained genetic samples from all 20 Primarchs. BA are afflicted with the flaw because their stocks of geneseed were destroyed during the HH and so their only way to rebuild was to harvest material from Sanguinius post-mortem. Presumably the material in the Sangprimus is pure/untainted and hence is why the flaw was eliminated. This is presumably also how Cawl was able (and thought it safe to attempt) to create marines from the traitor Primarchs. I wonder if he also made marines from the two lost Primarchs too?

 

3. Sanguinius was unflinchingly loyal to Papa Smurf the Imperium but I always got the impression that the BA weren't necessarily that fond of him or the Ultrasmurfs. The Codex was never fully adopted and grudgingly at that.

Fixed that for you. That explains the paradoxical relationship you see with Guilliman/the codex. Guilliman represents the Imperium. The Codex was not the Emperor's vision for the Astartes, so was met with resistance. 

Hmm... I always felt there was a personal loyalty from S to PS - maybe that's also just my head-canon? It's a good point though.

 

4. Didn't I read somewhere that Primaris marines grown from Sanguinius' geneseed were free from the flaw? While the fanboy in me loves the idea that my "doomed" chapter is now fixed, there's a part of me that worries that this eventually means there'll be no more Death Company.

Initially, yes, however remember that the first batch of Primaris were made shortly after the heresy then frozen. This was before the flaw really manifested itself. The BA codex has an example of BA Primaris losing all control and literally ripping apart their foes, akin to death company. The fate of these marines is not discussed. 

This could just be the red thirst though, right? That was an inherent feature of the BA geneseed from the very start.

 

 

[Majkhel]

I strongly agree with Xenith there.
That first point you made Michaelus_Raphael about obsession with perfection is more akin to Emperor's Chlidren than Blod Angels, who always tempered that with humility and self-sacrifice which both were very strong traits in Sanguinius.

The acceptance of the Primaris 'upgrade' is ambiguously seen by the chapters of the Blood. It's well illustrated in Devastation of Baal when Dante speaks with Seth. Dante himself sees Primaris as a salvation and a possibility. And some of Seth's points against them were nullified in the Codex (Primaris being afflicted with Red Thirst as well). 

I also strongly feel like you Halandar, that Inceptor armor could not do Dante justice (those landing gear-thing... :/) . I believe we will wait for that actual model quite long because that requires proper JP-Primaris (with CC abilities I would add). 
So the same goes for Sanguinary Guard. Therefore I'm willing to look at conversion opportunities. Probably using Stormcast Eternal models.
Mephiston on the other hand could be made quite easily as the Primaris Chaplain frame already very successfully demonstrated. 

A Death Mask of Sanguinius is a must though! Not only it's a sacred relic. After 1,5 millenium of wearing it, it's like a body part for Dante :D

The problem would be with Sanguinor... with him effectively becoming a Greater Demon of the Emperor in the fluff like St. Celestine. Although at that point, what would be  stopping him from simply changing his corporeal form at a whim?
I have also no difficulties in seeing GW release some 'historical' range as part of one event or other. That could potentially include even limited Primaris Tycho (with options for a DC as well, cause: why not?). 

The thing about Dante "masquerading" (Guilliman's words) as Sangunius is that Dante thought it necessary to give the Imperium hope and presence Sanguinius did and took it upon himself to do just that to the best of his abilities (and beyond). In short, Guilliman said that he needed Dante being simply Dante. No more, but no less either.

[Panzer]

I don't see why you'd be so worried about Dantes armour. GW has already shown that they are willing to give characters non-standard armour with the default Primaris Chaplain model.

 

Also yeah BA aren't about perfection. Them doing all the artistic stuff is to strengthen their connection to humanity and their past and also to calm themselves down. It's a means of meditation to them.

Edited November 27, 2018 by sfPanzer

[Jolemai]

Other than his ability to ride in Transports and his power sword, what did Calgar lose in his upgrade?

[Majkhel]

(cough)...dignity...(cough)

Apart from you said - nothing. He got bigger base, so gives out bigger aura (if he has any now). Edited November 27, 2018 by Majkhel

[Xenith]

 

 

 

1. BA are notoriously vain , to the point of almost being obsessed with beauty and physical perfection. They're also quite prideful. Wouldn't volunteering for the upgrade suggest that they were somehow deficient? I'm sure that would rub against the BA psyche.

My view is that the BA are self sacrificing. They will torture themselves via Primarisation if it means they can fight the foes of mankind better. Primaris were already known to be the Emperor's vision, and Astartes 1.0 have been improved upon. If they want perfection, they get embiggened.

This is an excellent point and I think it fits in well with my head-canon. I must have missed where Primaris were revealed to be the Emperor's vision for the next step, are you talking about Deliverance Lost or something else in the fluff?

 

Good points, I can't disagree with. On this matter  there are a lot of hints and half truths. Deliverance Lost had the Emperor allow Corax into a secret gene lab where Astartes Superior can be grown in a matter of years, allowing them to replenish. This ability to make mature Astartes in 1/10 the time obviously has parallels with the Primaris process.

 

This was then stolen by the Alpha legion, and some of the tech lost.

 

One of the new organs is the 'god maker' or some such name. Some of the background suggests it's something that Primarchs have, yet wasn't fully developed for Astartes by the time the chaos gods stole the Primarchs.

 

My Interpretation is that when the Primarchs were stolen, the Emperor knew the chaos gods were onto Him and as a result he had to accelerate the Astartes program to build armies to reclaim his sons ASAP. This resulted in 'imperfect' Astartes that he ultimately had plans to improve upon at some point. In the meantime, the Webway project (see: Path of Heaven) came to fruition and suddenly this was more important than finishing the Primaris project. 

 

It seems like Cawl came across/was given fragments of the old tech, or saw some of the Emperor's improvements/plans for Astartes Superior, and then enacted them in secret.

 

 

[Blindhamster]

Other than his ability to ride in Transports and his power sword, what did Calgar lose in his upgrade?

 

we don't know yet, probably nothing tbh.

[Sete]

Easy now fuzzy little man peach.

Inevitable is such a strong word...

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

1. BA are notoriously vain , to the point of almost being obsessed with beauty and physical perfection. They're also quite prideful. Wouldn't volunteering for the upgrade suggest that they were somehow deficient? I'm sure that would rub against the BA psyche.

My view is that the BA are self sacrificing. They will torture themselves via Primarisation if it means they can fight the foes of mankind better. Primaris were already known to be the Emperor's vision, and Astartes 1.0 have been improved upon. If they want perfection, they get embiggened.

This is an excellent point and I think it fits in well with my head-canon. I must have missed where Primaris were revealed to be the Emperor's vision for the next step, are you talking about Deliverance Lost or something else in the fluff?

BA are actually not supposed to be vain, they're supposed to be beautiful, but because of their curse they're supposed to have a lot of humility. The use art and creative outlets not as a means to show off but as a means to control their humours (Source, Dante)

 

2. In a similar theme, I wonder if accepting the upgrade would be viewed as taking them further away from image of Sanguinius?

Possible. One wonders how Cawl made BA  primaris when we know that BA geneseed is activcated by drinking the blood of Sanguinius. Has he found a way around this? Or will they be cursed like the Lamenters?

After the Heresy, Guilliman gave Cawl the Sangprimus Portum, which contained genetic samples from all 20 Primarchs. BA are afflicted with the flaw because their stocks of geneseed were destroyed during the HH and so their only way to rebuild was to harvest material from Sanguinius post-mortem. Presumably the material in the Sangprimus is pure/untainted and hence is why the flaw was eliminated. This is presumably also how Cawl was able (and thought it safe to attempt) to create marines from the traitor Primarchs. I wonder if he also made marines from the two lost Primarchs too?

Doubtful, primaris BA still look just like Sanguinius, and if anything are closer to him as they have (half) a primarch organ with the god maker.

 

3. Sanguinius was unflinchingly loyal to Papa Smurf the Imperium but I always got the impression that the BA weren't necessarily that fond of him or the Ultrasmurfs. The Codex was never fully adopted and grudgingly at that.

Fixed that for you. That explains the paradoxical relationship you see with Guilliman/the codex. Guilliman represents the Imperium. The Codex was not the Emperor's vision for the Astartes, so was met with resistance. 

Hmm... I always felt there was a personal loyalty from S to PS - maybe that's also just my head-canon? It's a good point though.

Current Lore suggests that Guilliman actually helped the Blood Angels a lot post HH, and that they actually view both him and the Ultramarines very favourably. The ONLY reason they aren't a codex chapter is because the flaw does not allow it, they have to have adjustments to their command structure and battle companies to allow for managing the flaw. Amit was technically an exception to that, because he was angry, constantly. Sanguinuis was always loyal to the Imperium above all else, but he was meant to have a lot of respect for Guilliman

 

4. Didn't I read somewhere that Primaris marines grown from Sanguinius' geneseed were free from the flaw? While the fanboy in me loves the idea that my "doomed" chapter is now fixed, there's a part of me that worries that this eventually means there'll be no more Death Company.

Initially, yes, however remember that the first batch of Primaris were made shortly after the heresy then frozen. This was before the flaw really manifested itself. The BA codex has an example of BA Primaris losing all control and literally ripping apart their foes, akin to death company. The fate of these marines is not discussed. 

This could just be the red thirst though, right? That was an inherent feature of the BA geneseed from the very start.

It's implied to be the red thirst, rather than the black rage as they come back to themselves afterward. It's likely just meant to be the reason they primaris BA get the red thirst rule for now.

 

 

 

[Jolemai]

 

Other than his ability to ride in Transports and his power sword, what did Calgar lose in his upgrade?

 

we don't know yet, probably nothing tbh.

 

 

Indeed, so we can't really say with any conviction what Dante will lose :)

[Paladin777]

Side note, the alternative font colors some of you people are using are unreadable in the mobile version. Just an FYI.

[Xenith]

Side note, the alternative font colors some of you people are using are unreadable in the mobile version. Just an FYI.

 

Apologies for this.

 

Not.

 

There's been some interesting discussion, worth checking out when you have the time, or highlight it on the phone screen.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

So we all know by now Dante is getting the primaris treatment!

 

What are your hopes and dreams beyond a cool new model!

 

Personally, I will be disappointed if they do not use this as an opportunity to do something really special! His fluff totally justifies it!

 

I want to see

1. A sick new model

2. Truely reflective new rules (not just a chapter master with pistol and a average axe)

3. Some cool new fluff leading up to him being primaris'd

4. Some cool sanguinary guard upgrades as a body guard (primaris sanguinary guard)

5. MORE MORE!!!

 

Any thoughts?

So I love this idea but I kind of have a problem with this it. Much though I would love cool new Primaris-ised (is that a word?) characters for BA, I don't think they would actually go through with it for a couple of reasons.

 

1. BA are notoriously vain , to the point of almost being obsessed with beauty and physical perfection. They're also quite prideful. Wouldn't volunteering for the upgrade suggest that they were somehow deficient? I'm sure that would rub against the BA psyche.

2. In a similar theme, I wonder if accepting the upgrade would be viewed as taking them further away from image of Sanguinius?

3. Sanguinius was unflinchingly loyal to Papa Smurf but I always got the impression that the BA weren't necessarily that fond of him or the Ultrasmurfs. The Codex was never fully adopted and grudgingly at that.

4. Didn't I read somewhere that Primaris marines grown from Sanguinius' geneseed were free from the flaw? While the fanboy in me loves the idea that my "doomed" chapter is now fixed, there's a part of me that worries that this eventually means there'll be no more Death Company.

You just described the Emperor's Children at first. They do not seek perfection, they seek tranquility within their hearts because of the twin curse. They hammer themselves into hardened chains to keep the beasts at bay. Their perfections come with agelessness.

 

The BA not liking the ultramarine's stems from the end of Terra. You have to remember, they were grieving from the loss of their primarch and Guilliman forced his Codex Astartes on all of them. This is why Amit hates Guilliman, and his unforgettable quote about being "Angel's no more."

 

It doesn't help Guilliman and co. Did not make it to Terra in time.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Arkangilos]

The BA themselves didn't have a problem, only Amit and his guys did. The rest of them accepted it almost without qualms.

 

Also I Michaelus, I definitely think you should read Dante. That is not how they are described... at all.

 

As for the flaw, it doesn't have to do with how they get the geneseed (they don't even take from his body anymore, it's all from the Sanguinary Priests). If it was they wouldn't have fallen to the flaw before the end of the heresy. The BA just have a stronger link to their primarch than most others. The thirst was pre-death, and the Black Rage happened before and right at his death.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Arkangilos

[Ornithologist]

I feel like I read somewhere that the BA adoped the Codex views quickly and publicly as to keep people from sniffing around and discovering the flaws that were becoming very apparent. 

 

"Those are great ideas, we'll do them. No need to come over and make sure, We got it. Hey, those Space Wolves arn't complying, go bother them."

 

Back on point, I can imagine they will release 1 or 2 melee primaris units when / if they redo Dante.

[Gederas]

• GW is phasing out older models previously only in finecast and has been for the past several years - plastic Grimnar, Ulrik, Khârn, Typhus, Ahriman, etc.

Counterpoint: They're still making NEW models in Finecast.

 

See: Sly Marbo and Eisenhorn

 

As to Primaris'd Dante, how about this theory, which my friend put forward last night when we were doing a build & paint session at his place:

 

All of the fluff has been bringing up Dante being so old, so tired and wanting to die. We KNOW for a fact the Primaris Rubicon almost killed Calgar, who's YOUNGER than Dante. His theory: Dante will die to show how dangerous said process is. BUT, Blood Angels will get a Rubicon Primaris marine. And it will allow the Blood Angels to get something like Sanguinius reborn.

 

And that marine, is Mephiston.

 

He brought up all the fluff pointing out that Mephiston GREW in size after what happened to him, and how he's basically channeling so much warp energy. Perhaps the reason why Mephiston was able to break out of the Black Rage was because Sanguinius spirit touched him, literally.

 

And this, Blood Angels will get a new Mephiston model, and a new Chapter Master. A Psyker Chapter Master, who's borderline Guilliman size, because Mephiston is, in the fluff, ALREADY the size of a Primaris marine.