Bridging the gap

[slitth]

Not sure removing all Classic Marines bar elites bridges the gap

Well the Vanguard and Sternguard are more or less a upgraded tactical squad.

So if we are selling the image that Classic Marines are the crafty and skilful part of the Adeptus Astartes.

Then we are not removing Classic Marines from the Adeptus Astartes, we are just removing the one unit that already has a veteran version.

It would also give us the option to update the bikes and devastators to match this image.

That would make Classic Bikes a viable option if GW release a Primaris bike option

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think it solves any of the problems we have with people wanting to feel included in the Space Marines army if they don't want Primaris.

 

Your position is "people are worried about their army being replaced by Primaris so to address that we'll ramp up the removal of the units they can take that aren't replaced by Primaris."

 

I suspect you've missed the OP in this topic ;)

[Trevak Dal]

Gothic weirdness! That seems to be declining from the hobby lately!

 

Space Marine Primaris feel like they were produced by Tau.

Again I think that's why I like them, the feel like what (imo) super soldiers should be. They got the statline space marines should have (compared to normie humans and t3 aliens), and they look awesome. No impractical frocks or tassles (well comparatively very few tassels). I look at the priTacs and I see that cutscene from Halo 4 with the Spartans dropping in and chopping up the covenant and the one at the end where Chief doesn't fit the arming armatures of the Spartan 4s and is about the size difference between them that Primaris are to marines.

 

And their shoulder pads don't seem as :cussing huge, and there is a lack of skulls. My God they look like professional super soldiers not some Buck Rogers BS.

[slitth]

I don't think it solves any of the problems we have with people wanting to feel included in the Space Marines army if they don't want Primaris.

 

Your position is "people are worried about their army being replaced by Primaris so to address that we'll ramp up the removal of the units they can take that aren't replaced by Primaris."

 

I suspect you've missed the OP in this topic

 

Removing Classic Tactical Squad is not ramping up the removal of the Classic Astartes.

It being removed because they are getting a image lift.

Now all the old Tactical Squad are the elites of the Astartes, they are now Vanguard or Sternguard.

 

By doing this we are moving the current image that "Classic Astartes are old and outdated and Primaris are the bigger and better option."

And replacing it with "Yes, Primaris are bigger and stronger, but the Classic are the masters of warfare"

 

And I do not think that removing Classic Tactical Squad as the Classic troop choice and replacing with Vanguard or Sternguard from elite to troop choice is something that will make Classic Astartes go away.

[Interrogator Stobz]

The aesthetic of Primaris is indeed a bold new step away from the Gothic of the last 30 years. It needs to exist to draw those customers that like it into spending their monies and to keep our hobby alive. Their stats are indeed what Astartes should have, some of the weapon and transport limitations are as mad as ever though.

 

But, and it's a really big but, there a many customers that love the overt Gothic craziness of many other parts of Astartes history/lore/aesthetic.

A big step in the right direction would be to do both without a major gap on the tabletop (primarily in their stats and weapons).

Then folks can choose the aesthetic they like without feeling either superior or inferior depending on their preference.

 

It really can be that simple.

[helterskelter]

What could GW do to make me happy? Update all the ranges, every codex option that has an older model that either isn't selling well, or is just plain old, or lacking, update, all races. Not just have a few models, have some space marines, ork's get some buggies, have more marines, xenos character model? Have a primaris lieutenant.

As a business I understand why they push their main iconic range, however if they haven't learnt that speculation has meant accumulation from some very obvious sources. This is all I want, everyone getting their fair share of the hobby pie.

[Doghouse]

As far as the gothic goes I think the original multipart plastic marines from third edition were intended to be more sci fi future soldier than we had seen before. I think this is the direction these and especially the Cadians were taking in 3rd. I personally think that the Primaris are the latest stage continuing Jes Goodwin's more conventional sci fi vision over the gothic.

 

I do like that we are getting more what I would call 40k looking models in the likes of Kill Team and Blackstone Fortress.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think a lot of problems could be solved if GW realeased a box of ten of each armor mark in plastic as direct only as if they were Necromunda gangs. Scaled like Deathwatch.

[Robbienw]

GW could make me happy by still releasing classic marine kits.

 

They were doing really well updating all the kits to modern CAD standard, but stopped short by starting primaris and there are still key kits that didn't get the update.

 

Updated bikers, codex terminators, command squad, plastic techmarine and servitors, plastic thunderfire would make me well happy.

 

They'd sell as well as any other classic marine kit did in my opinion.  I think they really are missing out on a huge amount of money not doing these kits. Both from marine fans who aren't into primaris and people who like all marines, both classic and primaris.  

 

It seems like from the discussions on the forum there is polarisation and people only like one or the other, but i think there are lots of people out there who like all types of marine and aren't bothered about relative scaling of models or ideal proportions.

[Bryan Blaire]

I know I was very vocal with GW regarding not forgetting the “OG Marine” line (and other lines that don’t have plastics, such as the Eldar and Sisters of Battle) in the Customer Feedback survey, and i’d really love to see them institute something like that year to year. Hopefully enough people putting similar ideas down would sway them.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree I think GW could actually have their cake and eat it if they updated Classic Marines and new Primaris. The Classic players add new units of both and the Primaris have a reason to add new units of both too.

[Marshal Rohr]

I agree I think GW could actually have their cake and eat it if they updated Classic Marines and new Primaris. The Classic players add new units of both and the Primaris have a reason to add new units of both too.

I know now that the Imperium is divided in history between pre and post rift the pre-rift Imperium appeals to me because of my love of ‘historical’ 40k topics. Now that the Cadia and Armageddon are historical campaigns that only makes me love them more. What could be cooler than the fall of the greatest fortress world? When things in 40k are historical, everyone can make their own versions with no strings attached.

[Doghouse]

I think true multipart versions of the Japanese range would be good, they are really nicely scaled in comparison to the originals. Not perfect but really nice still.

[Captain Idaho]

 

I agree I think GW could actually have their cake and eat it if they updated Classic Marines and new Primaris. The Classic players add new units of both and the Primaris have a reason to add new units of both too.

I know now that the Imperium is divided in history between pre and post rift the pre-rift Imperium appeals to me because of my love of ‘historical’ 40k topics. Now that the Cadia and Armageddon are historical campaigns that only makes me love them more. What could be cooler than the fall of the greatest fortress world? When things in 40k are historical, everyone can make their own versions with no strings attached.

I'm loving the idea of background and rule books for the 10K years since the heresy.

 

Most of all I've always wanted incredible detail on the Tyrannic Wars. The 1st in particular.

[Interrogator Stobz]

As far as the gothic goes I think the original multipart plastic marines from third edition were intended to be more sci fi future soldier than we had seen before. I think this is the direction these and especially the Cadians were taking in 3rd. I personally think that the Primaris are the latest stage continuing Jes Goodwin's more conventional sci fi vision over the gothic.

Tell that to Second Edition and Third Edition Dark Angels :D

[Captain Idaho]

I think the game is sorely missing the gothic insanity and I don't think we'll get it back with the SoB either.

[Marshal Rohr]

Cap, one of my dream projects is the Battle for Macragge

[Khornestar]

IMO, a lot of discontent has to do with a person’s expectations and priorities. I think bridging the gap could involve allowing others to vent their frustration without jumping down their throats, but by the same token it also involves perspective into what exactly oneself is being frustrated by.

 

Our game of toy soldiers is not permanent, and as with the rest of life, change is all but guaranteed. There are surely bigger fish to fry than whether or not “oldmarines” get squatted, and whether or not someone likes the Primaris models/lore. I’m no beacon of positivity, and I’m just as guilty as the next person for whining from time to time, but at times lately it’s gotten beyond what is reasonable.

 

Hobby. Toy soldiers. Beloved, to be sure, but not worth freaking out over.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not made of money though and as a consumer...

 

Bah I made this topic because I'm too tired to be angry about it any more really. Which is the real problem as that means I'm losing interest and caring. I've not bought new 40K for about a year because of this (Necrons too - waiting on them to replace everything dated) which is a shame for GW as I'm a player who spends money consistent every year on 40K.

 

And that's that. It's not worth freaking out over. Therefore I move on and GW lost a customer.

 

***

 

Battle of Maccragge reeks of cool. As does the 2nd Tyrannic Wars.

 

But Scouring too. I'd like stuff there too. Other races and new troop types (or old depending how you look at it).

 

Of course that's if GW refuses to add MK9s Classic Marines to the mix. Or even MK8s. *shrugs*

[Noserenda]

They are never gonna roll back the Gathering storm fluff annoyingly but that was definitely badly handled...

Going forward id disengage Primaris and Oldmarines in the fluff, the Primaris form into "Legions" (or some new name to keep them distinct from the Chaos Legions) many based on the same homeworlds and names of existing Chapters and have some crossover between the two potentially but the Primaris forces are generally fleet based, recruit on the move and aggressively looking to rebuild the shattered Imperium and engage on new fronts. The Old marine chapters focus more on the defence of the Imperiums territory, what Guilliman envisioned the Legions might have done post crusade without the heresy.

Slip in references to female Primaris, add appropriate (So still largely bald/Mohawks etc) heads to sprues going forward. Thats the biggest shame i think in the Primaris release not just closing that foolish gate with the big changes in a relatively smooth manner. Chuck in a female Special character. Oh and Mk9 armour! Its not the 90's you cant just stick an X on something and call it cool :P 

Rules wise, split into two separate Codexes with most releases going forward focuses on the Primaris to fill out their range with Oldmarines maybe getting the odd revamps, new rhino variants, special characters etc but largely static. Maybe have a few historical campaign books (From forgeworld?) that focus on Old marines. 

 

[sockwithaticket]

I'm not made of money though and as a consumer...

 

 I'm too tired to be angry about it any more really. Which is the real problem as that means I'm losing interest and caring.

This resonates big time. The creation of the gap that needs bridging and the regular marines being slowly but surely pushed into the background has me looking at my Malifaux and Mordheim stuff a lot more and start to think about selling a lot of my unbuilt and unpainted stuff because I no longer have the enthusiasm to go through that many marines. Not so long ago I did.

 

A Scouring era product would potentially re-kindle the fire.

[UnkyHamHam]

There has always been a gap and always will be a gap.  We are different people with different opinions after all.  Since I began this hobby in 3rd edition I've seen many gaps. 

 

Marine options vs Chaos "lack of options".  Chaos players vs everyone.  Xenos Players vs everyone. Sisters players vs everyone.  Competitive players vs Casual players.  40k players vs 30k players.  Trimmed down codexes and armies vs tons of special rules/characters/gear.  Lords of War being in Apoc only vs in normal games.  Forgeworld vs no Forgeworld.  The clean futuristic aesthetic vs the medieval and gothic aesthetics.  And now Primaris vs the "classic" Astartes.

 

Bare with my mild negatively to illustrate my point please.  Honestly I do believe there is room in the hobby for everyone.  I do feel the pain currently more than I ever have being a marine player first.  Historically, GW has always catered to loyalist marine players and flooded us with options, models, and general support.  I fully admit that I don't care about many things in this hobby.  I hated Sisters, Orks, Chaos "dinobots", and even Fantasy/AoS stuff when I first got into the hobby at young age.  I even hated the more gothic styled marines like the Angels and Templars.  And I especially hated Space Wolves and how (I thought to be the case at the time) cartoony they came off.  All that has faded over time and I have come to love very much many of these things in the hobby.  The moral of the story is that there will always be "different strokes for different folks" and that we can be disappointed, but we shouldn't pee in someone else's cereal over it.  It honestly brings me joy that the hobby is as diverse as it is and that we have as many options for happiness as we do.  And as a marine player, I do recognized how spoiled I really am.  And as much as MANY things have bothered me over the years, I will just keep putting out wishlists for the stuff that brings me personal joy while not taking joy from others in the process.

 

I am one of those players who has hundreds of old marine models, but yet is absolutely excited about Primaris.  The real caveat to it, and honestly the ONE major thing that GW can do to please me...  is to get better writers or take their time crafting better fluff.  The implementation and quality of the Gathering Storm and beyond writing quality is frankly abysmal. Fixing this and finding really good writers to tighten up the deus ex machinas and lame bolter porn fluff will honestly do wonders for the IP.  A good writer can turn the lamest idea or most mundane character or setting into something truly special.

 

After that, they can please me by never dropping old marines haha.  I love all the marines.  And I honestly don't believe they will go anytime soon.  

 

Sorry for the long winded post.

[Kinstryfe]

They are never gonna roll back the Gathering storm fluff annoyingly but that was definitely badly handled...

Going forward id disengage Primaris and Oldmarines in the fluff, the Primaris form into "Legions" (or some new name to keep them distinct from the Chaos Legions) many based on the same homeworlds and names of existing Chapters and have some crossover between the two potentially but the Primaris forces are generally fleet based, recruit on the move and aggressively looking to rebuild the shattered Imperium and engage on new fronts. The Old marine chapters focus more on the defence of the Imperiums territory, what Guilliman envisioned the Legions might have done post crusade without the heresy.

Slip in references to female Primaris, add appropriate (So still largely bald/Mohawks etc) heads to sprues going forward. Thats the biggest shame i think in the Primaris release not just closing that foolish gate with the big changes in a relatively smooth manner. Chuck in a female Special character. Oh and Mk9 armour! Its not the 90's you cant just stick an X on something and call it cool :P 

Rules wise, split into two separate Codexes with most releases going forward focuses on the Primaris to fill out their range with Oldmarines maybe getting the odd revamps, new rhino variants, special characters etc but largely static. Maybe have a few historical campaign books (From forgeworld?) that focus on Old marines.

 

MkIX armour is the one thing that is so glaring, so just absolutely stand out in its omission that I would bet real money that it'll be eventually revealed. Sadly, when it is people will just while that "they should have made beakies instead" and continue to cry that the sky is falling. But it seems like it's just such an obvious missing link that it's gonna show up at some point. Hopefully it's simply an improvement to classic Marines but I think a new, tactical box in a new armor Mark in an updated aesthetic would go over really well, and scratch the new things for old players itch quite well.

[Red_Shift]

I'm quite excited by this 'Rubicon' concept and am hopeful for an updated Mark seven suit for veteran marines who have made the transition to primaris - call it Mark nine. A re sized tactical squad.

 

Going forward I quite like the idea is primaris shaking things up to a more legion sized force - but I want my assault marines back. Marines to me are the elite part and the equipment should be interchangeable depending on the mission, knitting themselves out as required. With that in mind I would like rapier platform style force multipliers.

 

I dint think the clock is going back with primaris but I do think that adding more of the classic marine tropes but at true scale would help - someone mentioned terminator - a true scale terminator kit would be good.for all.of us imo.

[Dracos]

On topic: Take Primaris our of the Space Marine Codex. Publish to separate Codex and use the detachment rules for mixing and matching units like any other Imperium factions.

 

Space Marines get stratagems that reflect being veterans of a long war ... yeah I went there. Someone touched on it earlier. Play up that this is an army of been there done that used the tee shirt for battlefield dressing

 

Primaris Marines develops a fighting doctrine related to the HH legions of RG’s “youth” ie power armor with the Scout rule: yes looking at you Reivers. And focus the codex on a whole new all Primaris Chapter that explains its founding and organization in detail

 

Lastly not new units for Space Marines because seriously the bases are covered, but new models for anything not resculpred since 3rd edition and rules that make any and all units a viable but none a must have click to win choice