Bridging the gap

[Interrogator Stobz]

I agree that we don’t ‘need’ new classics, just parity in stats to Primaris following a fluff period of upgrading and leaving them the same height so they fit their old armour.

New minis are always nice, but being realistic GW will phase out the old moulds and concentrate on Primaris moving forward.

[slitth]

 

 

Doesn't have to be a full revamp of the line; MK9 as mentioned, or even something quite innovative...

...Space Marines boxed set. That's it. 1 box, revamped size if they please, just 10 models. Then GW releases smaller upgrades sets that enables those models to be customised into Sternguard, Vanguard, Assault Marines, Devastators...

In that one change, there's now shelf room for 4 new boxed sets. More if you include a commanders upgrade sprue that allows you to build a Captain, Apothecary, Chaplain etc...

So a new box set for MK9 power armour? Plus upgrade packs?

 

And they are gonna do what? Replace all the other Classic Marines?

I do not think the fans of the old marks of power armour would like that.

 

Now the idea of having one box being the core and the having upgrade sets is not bad.

It just a matter of figuring out what box should be the core box.

As a player who uses mostly MK4s on my 40K Ultramarines, I can say with a large amount of confidence most Classic Marines players would be happy with GW bringing out this new MK9 kit. What it does is:

 

i) Allow for interesting purchases for elite units and characters, conversions etc; whilst still being close to the size of original models they own - unlike the substantially larger Primaris.

 

ii) It would demonstrate to all players a commitment to an existing product line outside just warm words.

 

iii) It brings in the Primaris crowd into the whole Space Marines product line with but a single boxed set (As per my suggestion - whatever happens may vary).

 

 

i) Why not just buy the current sets if you have an army that you want to expand?

There is a lot of option to make interesting conversions already available.

 

ii) They are making the Hero line, that shows that they have not dropped the Classic Marines.

If that sells well that make the make more Classic Marines.

 

iii) Adding one extra box to the line will not make it less crowded, and you boxed set is just replacing the current classic line

[Sete]

 

Then it's not almost 100% like a tac squad ;)

True enough but if your game plan depends on haveing 3 or 4 ablative wounds for one heavy and one or one special weapon guy you kind of suck as a tactician anyway.

That's why I give them chainswords. And use(d) crusader squads on landraiders. ;)

[Captain Idaho]

snip

Actually I think you've missed what many of the existing/Classic/old school players are unhappy with. They don't like Primaris for whatever reason. Personally for me it's a matter of scale/size with my existing models (and Gravis Armour looks awful to me) and YES I am aware that's subjective but it's a subjective feeling shared by many.

 

So buying into Primaris is the problem that can't be solved by just "buying into Primaris" ;)

 

The Hero line is expensive and hardly a replacement for a full release. It's nice to have but GW isn't telling people to buy the Hero line to get into the hobby.

 

Lastly I am sorry but I think you missed what I said about adding a single boxed set that is just "Adeptus Astartes". Those 10 guys build Bolter Marines and likely fulfil the role of a Tactical squad. GW then releases an Assault Marines upgrade sprue, or Vanguard (or the same box in all likelihood), or a Devastators upgrade sprue. These replace the respective units they are upgrades to.

 

That saves a lot of shelf space. Hell it could just be "Assault Box" and "Support Box" and cover the whole line in just 3 boxes. Characters can be covered by using the assault options of the Assault Box for example.

[slitth]

 

snip

Actually I think you've missed what many of the existing/Classic/old school players are unhappy with. They don't like Primaris for whatever reason. Personally for me it's a matter of scale/size with my existing models (and Gravis Armour looks awful to me) and YES I am aware that's subjective but it's a subjective feeling shared by many.

 

So buying into Primaris is the problem that can't be solved by just "buying into Primaris"

 

The Hero line is expensive and hardly a replacement for a full release. It's nice to have but GW isn't telling people to buy the Hero line to get into the hobby.

 

Lastly I am sorry but I think you missed what I said about adding a single boxed set that is just "Adeptus Astartes". Those 10 guys build Bolter Marines and likely fulfil the role of a Tactical squad. GW then releases an Assault Marines upgrade sprue, or Vanguard (or the same box in all likelihood), or a Devastators upgrade sprue. These replace the respective units they are upgrades to.

 

That saves a lot of shelf space. Hell it could just be "Assault Box" and "Support Box" and cover the whole line in just 3 boxes. Characters can be covered by using the assault options of the Assault Box for example.

 

Yes, they want something new, but just not the new that WG made.

We have so many version of the Classic Astartes. And most of the are still available.

 

So if we want Classic to stay, we need to keep the Classic sales up.

And look "Start Collecting! Space Marines" has no Primaris what so ever.

But if people buy Primaris and not the Classic Astartes then I would expect GW to go with the marked.

 

And yes the Hero line is expensive, but is also a Classic Astartes product.

We will see more of the Classic Astartes if the sell well.

If it does not sell well, we will most like see it become more of a collectors item and that will have a higher price than the "standard" boxes.

 

Now as for the "10 Botler Marines" box, that one box that replace something or added to the shelf.

Then we have the heavy weapon upgrade. That something that replace something or added to the shelf.

Same goes for the assault upgrade. And for the Vanguard and so on.

True we might have saved some shelf space. But you back room if filled with 10 Botler Marines to make sure that you can sell the upgrades.

All posts are base of the 10 Botler Marines, so the assault unit may seem a little dull running or standing on the ground with jump packs.

And if people hate the new Botler Marines you have problem selling the not just the main box but the upgrade packs too.

 

It would be safer for GW to make one box for each unit and release them slowly to see how the marked reacts.

[Subtleknife]

Im fine with the models. The biggest thing that would make me happy and I think GW fluffed majorly when redoing everything in 8th was the rules. I think this puts marines at a massive disadvantage in some regards and other elite armies.

-First I would like is a bigger difference between species. I.e guard stay s/t 3, eldar get s/t 4, orks get s/t 5, marines s/t 6, plague marines s/t 7, custodes s/t 8 and primarch s/t 9 etc. I feel that GW have written themselves into a corner by compressing all the stats so much over the years. Also, the new way in which the dice roll for s v t is worked out means the time to work all this out would not increase. This for me would make elite species feel elite etc something I dont think marines feel like atm.

 

-Secondly, I would like if they would bring back the old way ws was worked out for combat. It is rediculous this edition that a marine can still hit a primarch on a 3+ etc. It further penalises elite armies as hordes can still hit on their native ws.

 

-Thirdly, I would like the game to switch from IGUG to a system that uses alternate activation in some shape or form. This would stop the whole 1st turn being such a big decider.

 

-Fourthly, I would really like GW to release the next wave of Primaris.

[Kinstryfe]

Thinking about it more, I think the biggest thing holding Astartes back ruleswise is that Marines are still the "Starter Army". Now there's good reasons for that, they're the most aesthetically unique 40k faction in the zeitgeist, etc. But I think that that's what prevents us from getting some of the more unique rules that could make Space Marines stand out: those unique rules and mechanisms may be too much for them to want to put into what's part of almost every new players' experiences. It's really a shame, and I think Marines need a complete redo ruleswise more than they do modelwise to make them really attractive and play like they're written to an extent in the fluff.

[ERJAK]

Thinking about it more, I think the biggest thing holding Astartes back ruleswise is that Marines are still the "Starter Army". Now there's good reasons for that, they're the most aesthetically unique 40k faction in the zeitgeist, etc. But I think that that's what prevents us from getting some of the more unique rules that could make Space Marines stand out: those unique rules and mechanisms may be too much for them to want to put into what's part of almost every new players' experiences. It's really a shame, and I think Marines need a complete redo ruleswise more than they do modelwise to make them really attractive and play like they're written to an extent in the fluff.

'Aesthetically unique'? You mean the starcraft/halo/Deadspace/that one childrena book I saw guys? Space marines are the most aesthetically generic faction in 40k (outside of guard). Inquisition are the most Aesthetically unique.

[Kinstryfe]

 

Thinking about it more, I think the biggest thing holding Astartes back ruleswise is that Marines are still the "Starter Army". Now there's good reasons for that, they're the most aesthetically unique 40k faction in the zeitgeist, etc. But I think that that's what prevents us from getting some of the more unique rules that could make Space Marines stand out: those unique rules and mechanisms may be too much for them to want to put into what's part of almost every new players' experiences. It's really a shame, and I think Marines need a complete redo ruleswise more than they do modelwise to make them really attractive and play like they're written to an extent in the fluff.

'Aesthetically unique'? You mean the starcraft/halo/Deadspace/that one childrena book I saw guys? Space marines are the most aesthetically generic faction in 40k (outside of guard). Inquisition are the most Aesthetically unique.

Maybe my wording was off. In my experience, the good old Mk7 armour is the most easily recognized piece of 40k among the wider community. It's the literal poster child of the game, and of GW in general. Maybe aesthetically recognizable? Brand recognition?

[Doctor Perils]

Now as for the "10 Botler Marines" box, that one box that replace something or added to the shelf.

Then we have the heavy weapon upgrade. That something that replace something or added to the shelf.

Same goes for the assault upgrade. And for the Vanguard and so on.

True we might have saved some shelf space. But you back room if filled with 10 Botler Marines to make sure that you can sell the upgrades.

All posts are base of the 10 Botler Marines, so the assault unit may seem a little dull running or standing on the ground with jump packs.

And if people hate the new Botler Marines you have problem selling the not just the main box but the upgrade packs too.

 

It would be safer for GW to make one box for each unit and release them slowly to see how the marked reacts.

That's a fair criticism to the idea, but I think there would be ways of going about it, for example, by releasing one of these proposed upgrade kits that would be generic and compatible with the mk3, mk4, mk3 and mk8 kits that already exist in plastic. Now, I believe that both the mk7 devastators and assault marines are fairly recent, so you could start with an entirely new kit like plastic breachers (along with the rules for them) - you test the waters for tru-marines with a single box, that could have options for both ranged breachers and close combat breachers. If that works well, combine the old assault and vanguard kits, and bundle in the bitz to make destroyers at the same time: you've replaced two boxes with a single one that also expands the range of possibilities. If everything's still working fine, accept to replace mk7 - the design after all looks a bit dated now: replace it with a new sleek MK9 armour (as opposed to the up-armoured mk8 and X)...

 

With this system, you don't have to release everything in the same wave, giving you the opportunity to look at the sales of the new tru-marine kits and compare them to the success of the primaris: if they aren't even doing half as well, you know you can look into going ahead with replacing the range with Primaris, if you see they're doing twice as well, you see that it's time tru-marines had their time in the spotlight again

[Captain Idaho]

That's exactly my thoughts. My idea is not the be all and end of it. I'm just making suggestions. There's bound to be more to it if GW implements something.

 

Now, a plastic Breacher unit would be a great test to see if folk buy a new Classic Marines set. I'm betting they would.

 

***

 

Also it's not as simple as saying "if you buy Classic Marines now then it supports them" as people buy what is cheapest first. If the discount boxed sets are all Primaris what do you think theyll buy?

 

There's likely a reason GW discontinue Betrayal at Calth and I bet it wasn't because it didn't sell... ;)

[Marshal Reinhard]

I find the odds of them redesigning any kits existing marine kits right now to be pretty unlikely due to several reasons. Chief of them being that we got new kits just a few years ago. We also got some heresy mark kits (from the most popular historic marks I would gather) so adding yet more would be hard pressed to add to sales. And then the elephant in the room is that GW is currently already underway with a massive experiment with the space marine line that's taken front left and center. I think they'd want to avoid anything and everything that might dillute its thunder by introducing anything else right now. If the Primaris experiment were to fail, it wouldn't be too unlikely to see something, but again, that'd be somewhere off in the future, still.

[sockwithaticket]

There doesn't need to be new regular marine stuff, the range is extensive. What's necessary is to give people a reason to buy the existing stuff.

[Captain Idaho]

There doesn't need to be new regular marine stuff, the range is extensive. What's necessary is to give people a reason to buy the existing stuff.

Exactly this. Players aren't buying existing stuff (and a proportion won't buy Primaris) so warm words of "we won't drop the line" isn't enough for most people.

 

(Funnily enough it's coming from Primaris players telling everyone to believe GW on this)

 

So a gesture is needed. The main studio needs to prove to people that buying into the Classic line isn't buying a dead line.

 

How can they do that? Release a new kit. Just one would solve many issues.

 

We know how popular Breachers would be. Make them MK9 so GW can increase the size without explaining if they must, or just make MK8 like the greater size Chaos Marines. Gives GW the option to make something unique if needed.

 

Or make a new unique troop type? It still works on the same principle.

 

People would see the gesture and realise they can believe that Classic Marines are still supported.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'd say updated Scout and Terminator Indomitus kits, rather than something that would require an addition to the codex. Proper classic marine lieutenants now, since they already exist in the codex. The range is already extensive, a relic of it having had new things added to it on and off for decades. Rules rework across the codex to support the release and make them more competitive, rather than a new killer unit that everyone has to have. Lest we get something like centurions that are pretty much forgotten already (Sincerest apologies to any and all who like them)

[Captain Idaho]

Uh don't talk to me about them... I want to select Centurions in my army but the price in points is gross. Likely deliberate to stop folk buying them over Aggressors.

[slitth]

 

Now as for the "10 Botler Marines" box, that one box that replace something or added to the shelf.

Then we have the heavy weapon upgrade. That something that replace something or added to the shelf.

Same goes for the assault upgrade. And for the Vanguard and so on.

True we might have saved some shelf space. But you back room if filled with 10 Botler Marines to make sure that you can sell the upgrades.

All posts are base of the 10 Botler Marines, so the assault unit may seem a little dull running or standing on the ground with jump packs.

And if people hate the new Botler Marines you have problem selling the not just the main box but the upgrade packs too.

 

It would be safer for GW to make one box for each unit and release them slowly to see how the marked reacts.

That's a fair criticism to the idea, but I think there would be ways of going about it, for example, by releasing one of these proposed upgrade kits that would be generic and compatible with the mk3, mk4, mk3 and mk8 kits that already exist in plastic. Now, I believe that both the mk7 devastators and assault marines are fairly recent, so you could start with an entirely new kit like plastic breachers (along with the rules for them) - you test the waters for tru-marines with a single box, that could have options for both ranged breachers and close combat breachers. If that works well, combine the old assault and vanguard kits, and bundle in the bitz to make destroyers at the same time: you've replaced two boxes with a single one that also expands the range of possibilities. If everything's still working fine, accept to replace mk7 - the design after all looks a bit dated now: replace it with a new sleek MK9 armour (as opposed to the up-armoured mk8 and X)...

 

With this system, you don't have to release everything in the same wave, giving you the opportunity to look at the sales of the new tru-marine kits and compare them to the success of the primaris: if they aren't even doing half as well, you know you can look into going ahead with replacing the range with Primaris, if you see they're doing twice as well, you see that it's time tru-marines had their time in the spotlight again

 

 

The idea in and of itself is not bad.

But it more about what it supposed to do.

If it just to replace of the Classic Astartes in the new Classic Astartes of same size and formant. Then is a bad idea and a waste of money for GW at the present time.

There are other armies that need the attention more than the Classic Astartes

If it is to market a new mark of power armour or unit for the Classic Astartes, then is ok, but I think the Classic Astartes has enough to choose as it is.

If it to replace of the Classic Astartes in a new size and miniature quality, this is where it would work best. But again it not the right time to do this.

 

And if I was to do it I would go with a 5 man box. Boxed to 10 are just 2 of everything deal anyway.

So that 5 resize and high quality miniatures with bolters.

And I would take a page of the Primaries and made the shin-guards, balt and front torso interchangeable

Why? Because most of the detail that are chapter specific or determines what mark of power armour is in user are shown there.

 

Now from that set you can make chapter specific upgrade kit for the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Ultramarines and other famous chapters.

You can made a Mark IV kit for 30K

You can make a Devastator kit.

And maybe a kit for Company Command / Sternguard.

 

And I would do this over a long period of time to see how the market reacts.

Perhaps with a Blood Angels campaign to replace the Blood Angels Tactical Squad.

 

 

There doesn't need to be new regular marine stuff, the range is extensive. What's necessary is to give people a reason to buy the existing stuff.

Exactly this. Players aren't buying existing stuff (and a proportion won't buy Primaris) so warm words of "we won't drop the line" isn't enough for most people.

 

(Funnily enough it's coming from Primaris players telling everyone to believe GW on this)

 

So a gesture is needed. The main studio needs to prove to people that buying into the Classic line isn't buying a dead line.

 

How can they do that? Release a new kit. Just one would solve many issues.

 

We know how popular Breachers would be. Make them MK9 so GW can increase the size without explaining if they must, or just make MK8 like the greater size Chaos Marines. Gives GW the option to make something unique if needed.

 

Or make a new unique troop type? It still works on the same principle.

 

People would see the gesture and realise they can believe that Classic Marines are still supported.

 

 

That why we no not have to add a new kit. the range is already extensive. It the image of the Classic Astartes that need a boost, not the range.

 

Now the most powerful sign of support GW can give in the support of the Classic Astartes is with the big heroes.

With the reveal of the new Marneus Calgar destroyed some of the faith in GW support of the Classic Astartes.

Now Mephiston and Dante are big players in the new setting, so if one of them got a new model as a Classic Astartes that would be good.

In fact it would be wise for GW to release a new Classic Astartes hero model with each release of new converted Primaries hero.

A new Chief Librarian Tigurius model as a Classic Astartes would go nice with the new Calgar

[Marshal Rohr]

They’re not brand new kits. From what we’ve been told about the design process the new tactical kits were finished in 2012-13, released in 2015-16 or whenever they came out. They’re already years old by the time we have access to them.

[Captain Idaho]

Brand new kits? Isn't the Devastator kit 6 years old?

 

It's really not the same thing. You'd have 3 boxed sets for the whole line - the Marines, the support and the close combat. Sternguard, Company Veterans and Tactical squads would use the main box, Vanguard and Assault Marines add the upgrade for close combat and Devastator squads add the heavy weapons box.

 

Characters add can be built from whatever you require etc...

 

Regardless this is side tracking the whole point - Classic Marines players like their collection and want to keep them relevant. GW hasn't convinced most players that they aren't getting rid of them especially after replacing a traditional iconic character with a Primaris version.

 

People need some reassurance. The majority opinion even of those who like Primaris Marines is that GW has put the writing on the wall for Classic Marines, as such GW's warm words haven't had the effect people desired.

 

***

 

Releasing a modern Classic Marine like Mephiston would help a lot actually. I agree. It's possible after seeing the torn opinion of the community and potential backlash there will be a rethink. (Hope is the 1st step on the road to disappointment)

[Toxichobbit]

Brand new kits? Isn't the Devastator kit 6 years old?

 

 

They came out mid 2015, so about two and a half years old.

[Marshal Rohr]

They’ve been on sale for two and a half years, but they were finished well before that. Primaris would’ve already been halfway through their development cycle and dark Imperium had to be done in the months to year following the devs.

[Captain Idaho]

Mid 2015? That's over 3 years old. Ignoring R&D time, being over 3 years old is NOT brand new.

 

Unless you think Call of Duty Black Ops 3 is brand new?

[Marshal Reinhard]

Not sure video game releases are analogous to plastic kits

[Captain Idaho]

You're playing semantics if you believe a 3 year old + kit is brand new lol.

[Marshal Rohr]

This is going to be an unpopular opinion (which of mine aren’t) but the model of one complete kit and resin upgrades for specialists is something I’ve grown to appreciate immensely. It’s not cost effective, of course, for a budget army but I think it streamlines the way modes are produced really well. That isn’t to say there aren’t obvious problems, of course.