Bridging the gap

[Robbienw]

The tactical squad was released August 2013, so is just over 5 years old.

 

The devastator squad came out June 2015 so is just over 3 years old.

 

So fairly recent kits. Really nothing over a year old counts as brand new in my opinion though. Primaris are not brand new.

 

I still think the best thing for GW to do would be to finish the classic marine kit updates and do the updated bikes and codex terminators.

 

I think the whole space marine heroes thing has proved to GW people still want classic marines and they will

 

It does take GW a fairly long time to develop a new kits though, so if they decided now to react to people still wanting classic marines it would take about 2 years from that decision to seeing models.

[Captain Idaho]

I agree with it. Works for the HH so why can't it work for the main line of Marines? The weapons and Jump Packs are already in plastic so it doesn't even take much investment.

 

And it solves that problem with shelf space that economists are always telling us about here. ;)

[Captain Idaho]

+++Snip+++

On the Assault Marines and Vanguard boxes... I bought 1 of each when 8th dropped. They fit perfectly well. I combined the sets so I'd get a pretty cool Vanguard squad. So it works.

[Gederas]

+++Snip+++

 

On the Assault Marines and Vanguard boxes... I bought 1 of each when 8th dropped. They fit perfectly well. I combined the sets so I'd get a pretty cool Vanguard squad. So it works.

Iirc, the Vanguard and Sternguard kit also works with the Deathwatch marines without any issues. And the Deathwatch are in the 'new' scale of Marines.

[Doctor Perils]

I'd say updated Scout and Terminator Indomitus kits, rather than something that would require an addition to the codex. Proper classic marine lieutenants now, since they already exist in the codex. The range is already extensive, a relic of it having had new things added to it on and off for decades. Rules rework across the codex to support the release and make them more competitive, rather than a new killer unit that everyone has to have. Lest we get something like centurions that are pretty much forgotten already (Sincerest apologies to any and all who like them)

This would probably be their best bet, in fairness - update some of the more ancient kits, but alongside some new Primaris toys: this would at least give some confidence to both the players that want to stick to the classic marines and to the players that want to stick to the Primaris

[Captain Idaho]

...and it encourages folk to collect both as their preferences dictates.

[Elzender]

New codex terminators should not be too difficult either, considering the releases of the Dark Angels terminator command squad, the Blood Angels assault terminator squad and the Space Marine Heroes series 2 in the last ¿5? years. It would be a nice gesture from GW to release a kit for them, maybe doubling as regular and assault terminators in a single box (taking as a reference the DA one, which includes bits for both the DW knights and the command squad loadouts).

Then again, it is true that releasing now classic marines while GW is pushing the Primaris would be a bit counterintuitive. But maybe after the much expected Primaris 2nd wave, it would be a good opportunity for GW to have a nice gesture towards classic marines.

This said, a lot of armies with a more limited range could use an update for some of their most iconic kits (eldar aspect warriors, most of the chaos space marine infantry line come to mind).

[derLumpi]

Well, I would love to see two different books. Everybody could pick what they want. Pure Primaris, pure old school or mix & match. As an old school player it would make me really, really happy.

And I wouldn't care for updated kits for our beloved veteran marines. Yes, some are outdated and pretty hideous (Scouts? Anyone? I think there is consensus about them ;) ). But we endured until now, I wouldn't mind if they stay as they are now as long as I can play without Primaris, I'm happy.

 

As for a paetition. I don't know - GW states 'old marines are going nowhere' - I guess that will be their answer until they become obsolete because of bad rules and new shiny Primaris kits.

[Robbienw]

Don't necessarily need to add things.  There are definitely older kits that need updating, that is what we (I) want!

[Captain Idaho]

As explained several times throughout this thread.

 

(Though I'd love to see Breachers! That's a release that isn't covered by the range)

[Robbienw]

I would 100% definitely buy normal marine breachers 

[kombatwombat]

Releasing a new OldMarine kit doesn’t address the core issue though, which is that OldMarines are being consigned to the back seat. So long as the rules for people’s existing Marine collections are overshadowed by Primaris, there will always be this perception that GW don’t care about OldMarines and just want to push the new shiny.

 

The solution has to be rules parity. To bridge the gap you have to let people with old collections feel like they aren’t getting the shaft to push Primaris. The Primaris models are handsome enough to stand on their own; they don’t need GW to contrive demand by forcing a gap between the rules of the two products. If both OldMarines and Primaris share a statline and competitive viability then the differences come down to aesthetic - which for new players Primaris are going to win every time - and loadouts.

 

A new Codex Astartes (gods know we need one) with a second wave of Primaris, bumping all OldMarines to the 2W/2A AP-1 basic weapon profile and removing the transport restrictions would be a strong sign of faith in the OldMarines being a part of a Primaris future.

[Bryan Blaire]

Let's be really clear: the Codex Space Marines has 8 "classic" tank data sheets and two transports. Three of those tanks are Land Raider versions. Space Wolves Codex has no unique tank data sheets. Blood Angels Codex has one unique tank variant. The Dark Angels Codex has no unique tank variants. So the numbers for this discussion are 5 Rhino chassis based tanks, 3 Land Raider chassis based tanks, and two Rhino chassis based transports. There are no numbers in the 10s or 20s.

 

That's all there is in the standard Marines Classico line up.

 

Bringing in things you can do in Open Play or from Forge World is disingenuous when you are discussing the main Marines Classico range.

 

Let's keep this focused on what the OP asked for... "what GW could do to make YOU happy with the whole situation. Or what you think GW should do to make your friends/others happy if you've got something inspiring to suggest."

 

If the post isn't on that topic, then it's likely off-topic and probably prune-worthy the next time the Mods want to come through with their hedge trimmers or chainsaws.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Releasing a new OldMarine kit doesn’t address the core issue though, which is that OldMarines are being consigned to the back seat. So long as the rules for people’s existing Marine collections are overshadowed by Primaris, there will always be this perception that GW don’t care about OldMarines and just want to push the new shiny.

 

The solution has to be rules parity. To bridge the gap you have to let people with old collections feel like they aren’t getting the shaft to push Primaris. The Primaris models are handsome enough to stand on their own; they don’t need GW to contrive demand by forcing a gap between the rules of the two products. If both OldMarines and Primaris share a statline and competitive viability then the differences come down to aesthetic - which for new players Primaris are going to win every time - and loadouts.

 

A new Codex Astartes (gods know we need one) with a second wave of Primaris, bumping all OldMarines to the 2W/2A AP-1 basic weapon profile and removing the transport restrictions would be a strong sign of faith in the OldMarines being a part of a Primaris future.

So.Much.This.^^^

[Captain Idaho]

Going back to what Breachers could bring new to the party...

 

How about their Breacher Shields give +2 to saves. So they have a functional 2+ save that ignores the 1st modifier. (If Terminators get them it would be the same effect only better)

 

Then the armament is the Astartes Shotgun.

 

Lastly a special rule to allow them to fire their Shotgun whilst in close combat.

 

Now you've got a powerful close range shooting unit designed for attrition warfare in close combat.

[Marshal Reinhard]

This thread about bridging the gap or BREACHING the gap? :P

 

I'll see myself out....

[Sloeberjong]

Let's be really clear: the Codex Space Marines has 8 "classic" tank data sheets and two transports. Three of those tanks are Land Raider versions. Space Wolves Codex has no unique tank data sheets. Blood Angels Codex has one unique tank variant. The Dark Angels Codex has no unique tank variants. So the numbers for this discussion are 5 Rhino chassis based tanks, 3 Land Raider chassis based tanks, and two Rhino chassis based transports. There are no numbers in the 10s or 20s.

 

That's all there is in the standard Marines Classico line up.

 

Bringing in things you can do in Open Play or from Forge World is disingenuous when you are discussing the main Marines Classico range.

 

Let's keep this focused on what the OP asked for... "what GW could do to make YOU happy with the whole situation. Or what you think GW should do to make your friends/others happy if you've got something inspiring to suggest."

 

If the post isn't on that topic, then it's likely off-topic and probably prune-worthy the next time the Mods want to come through with their hedge trimmers or chainsaws.

 

I do feel this is the umpteenth time this subject has been discussed and I've stayed out of it mostly (though I finally gave my opinion a couple pages back). If the question truly is "what would make you happy?" then I couldn't give a positive answer for this thread. I want oldmarines to go the way of the dodo. They've got the Index and a current codex, it should be done with this. I want primaris to be the new space marines allround with new units/models and a bit more options, they're not ready to be their own army just yet. I do feel this thread is once again whislisting what people want with oldmarines and people wanting nothing to do with bridging the gap don't matter. A legitimate worry could be that GW spends resources on a dying modelrange when they could've spent that time on new awesome primaris marines (or Xenos, mind you!).

 

The arguments that there must be lots of people who want classic marines to get new kits and whatnots are part of the fallacy of any opinion on the internet. People who have something to complain about will do it on social media or forums or whatever. People who are happy with anything will not go on public forums and say how happy they are with X or Y. This leads to conformation bias and gives you a sense that you're right, but it's not reality (this all actually has a scientific basis with research). Really the only ones that know what people really do with Primaris/classic marines are GW. They have the sales figures. So I'm not saying I'm right, because that could lead to me falling into the same trap. If GW knows that of all marines sold 5/10/30/60% are oldmarines and the rest Primaris then that'll make up their mind. E.g. If it is 5% or less then they'll kill classic marines pretty fast once the molds are done. The reality is we don't know and we can't assume either way. The only thing to go by is GW stating multiple times that classic marines are here to stay, at least a while. It's really their decision and one probably based on actual sales...

 

Personally I'm very happy with primaris, they got me back into the hobby eventhough I have an oldmarine army. I wouldn't mind GW still making classic marines or even if they'd make new kits for them (breachers or whatever). I won't be the one buying them though and I'm not going to do any petitioning for them. If somebody wants to then fine, but I won't sign. I hope for you all that they'll make Breachers, it's just that I don't care about classic marines anymore, subjectively the Primaris marines are superior looking in every way. Maybe they'll make primaris breachers ;)

 

Now I don't want to pary-poop too much since everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I do feel that if OP really wants to know what would make people happy then I think opinions that don't fit the expectancy of positivism about classic marines are equally valid. Or do you all want positive reinforcement about how awesome classic marines are and how they should be sold and expanded upon indefinitely. In that case, disregard my post, because it's all about little plastic soldiers so I really don't want to make too much fuss about any of this...I hope this fits the topic though, because I really am not trying to mess it up.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes but it could be said your opinion that Classic Marines should die out as per your desire is also just a fallacy of internet opinion.

 

Can you really make the assumption that we are such a minority just because "the internet is always like that"?

 

Yes I want to know what makes people happy but the context is implied that both factions will continue to exist alongside each other. Bridging the gap so to speak.

 

I'll update the top post as I have time. Thanks for pointing out that I wasn't clear.

 

***

 

On that note, in the context of maintaining the Classic Marines alongside Primaris, what do you as a Primaris fan think you'd like to see to bridge the gap so to speak?

[Robbienw]

I really don't understand why people actively want a faction to go away, a faction that a lot of people like. Surely if you don't like/don't care about classic marines, you can just ignore them?

 

I don't like primaris as they currently are and will never collect them, but I don't want them to 'go the way of the dodo' or be 'squatted' as I can see others like them, so it would be churlish of me to want them denied to those who like them.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed.

 

I feel it isn't very empathetic or even economically astute for GW to replace a faction as immense as Classic Marines.

[Sloeberjong]

Yes but it could be said your opinion that Classic Marines should die out as per your desire is also just a fallacy of internet opinion.

 

Can you really make the assumption that we are such a minority just because "the internet is always like that"?

 

Yes I want to know what makes people happy but the context is implied that both factions will continue to exist alongside each other. Bridging the gap so to speak.

 

I'll update the top post as I have time. Thanks for pointing out that I wasn't clear.

 

***

 

On that note, in the context of maintaining the Classic Marines alongside Primaris, what do you as a Primaris fan think you'd like to see to bridge the gap so to speak?

 

You haven't read my post very well. I literally state that I'm not implying that I'm right with my opinion and I specifically refer to GW knowing the sales figures. Just the fact that some people agree with your opinion doesn't make it a majority, or even a relevant minority. We simply don't know. My opinion is just that, my opinion and not fact, so I won't fall into that fallacy. I wouldn't mind squatting classic marines, but I don't really care if they remain and I don't think I'm alone with that opinion, but I don't think a lot of people agree. I simply prefer Primaris over them in almost every sense. You asked for my opinion and I gave it, it's up to GW to do whatever they want to do. I don't think my opinion will be a reality soon (if ever), lucky for you. As a customer you can ask them anything of course, but they owe you nothing. No modelmaker is obligated to support their mini's indefinitely. You bought them at a time where you can use them with the gaming system of that time, you still can use them now and in 100 years as long as keep your rulebooks. 

 

Calling primaris a different faction is erroneous. They're an addition to an existing faction that is fully supported by rules, models, special releases and gaming accessories. They're not dead and GW have stated they'll support them. Apparently sales, nostalgia, and or motivation to keep classic marines around is/are large enough to warrant their existence. There is no factual evidence classic marines are going away. So they remade the poster child of 40k into a new image, that says nothing. Marneus represents everything GW is trying to sell about space marines, it makes sense they remade him according to their new shiny mantra.

 

I'm getting that people are being disappointed about the possibility of the end of a defining modelrange, but it isn't the end of the world. Besides, though the signs are there, the end isn't nearly in sight and GW have stated they'll support the classic marines for times to come. There's no need to panic for those who love the classics. There's a full range of models available, rules, books whatnot. I feel like these topics are kind of like "the sky is falling" when really the sky is blue and mostly clear. 

 

To say not to read a topic on a discussion forum is rather asinine. Especially a topic where an opinion on a matter is asked for specifically. It's rather different from actual wishlisting topics. You could go on the primaris wishlisttopic and say you want them out. Though I wouldn't do that in a wishlisting topic for classic marines either because that would be purposefully negative. On a topic that wants to discuss how both interact you'll get clashes with conflicting opinions. We need to remain civil about it. Instead of trying to get "us" primarislovers to leave your topic alone, maybe try to create a topic that doesn't have to interact with "us". Have an happy joy joy topic about classic marines and what new units you'd like or what kits you want updated. You won't see me there commenting, I'll read it, but not comment. I'll steal your idea for breachers and bring them to the primaris wishlist. they sound rather awesome for Gravis armour, a variant for Aggressors. Anyway, this is going off topic, but once again, I respect your opinion and if GW makes new classic marines all the more power to you, but for me they look like stunted variants of primaris and I'd rather see primaris everywhere.

[Robbienw]

We aren't demanding anything. 

 

Rather we are expressing a wish that GW would still provide us with the things we like and enjoy and have an interest in, which we have collected for many years.  Hardly unreasonable.

 

If we talk about it with like minded people, and if we communicate it to GW via social media, the online community survey and by the products we buy, then maybe we will get what we want.  Maybe we won't but its worth a try.

 

As to whether classic marines and primaris marines are separate faction, well no technically they aren't.  But they are separate enough that my question still stands.

[Captain Idaho]

*Snip*

I'm not going to engage in most of this, as you say it's off topic. I have updated the OP so hopefully that'll be clearer.

 

+++Snip+++

 

Ultimately I created this topic in the hopes of fostering common ground.

 

***

 

But if you can steal the Breachers idea for the Primaris wish list thread that's good. There should always be more Breachers in 40K.

 

There's always common ground on that.

[sockwithaticket]

You know what I think could help bridge the gap? Chapter upgrade sprues. More of them, slightly tweaked.

Intercessor/standard marine pads are basically interchangeable and there are only 2 bits on the sprues released so far that can't be used by both Primaris and standard astartes (Agressor pads and the new polt pistol, the latter of which you could very easily chop off at the wrist and give to a regular marine as a bolt pistol anyway, who's going to quibble that?).

Take the new IF sprue


I would propose bump the price to £15, but make double sprues with one set being almost entirely fairly generic pads like you see above plus some extra trinkets/decorations while the 6 ordinary pads we see here would be replaced by blingier options more akin to the BA/DA/UM/SW power armoured upgrade sprues.

That'd be the type of release that would tide over those who have no intention of collecting Primaris, no intention of collecting regular and people who are fine with both.

Gap bridged with minimal model line bloat.

[Blindhamster]

+++Snip+++

The thing that would solve all the issues, would be if people could just chill out, enjoy the parts of the hobby they enjoy and not poo over the parts they don't because there is a high chance that somebody else does, and it just causes an argument.