CA won’t help SM

[Basteala]

Hellblasters are way better being able to move and shoot with no natural penalty. Devs are a direct throwback unit.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I shamelessly ran Hellblasters with Azrael pre CA.I vehemently disagreed with the range being worth the RNG and wounds, especially for more ppm. With them cheaper, however, and with deployment changing, the range gets more valuable, and the cheaper options make them easier to field as cheap beats.

 

Get murdered by phosphorus cannons,though. That hasn't changed.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t see any value in plasdevs unless maybe you’re running DA. I still rate Missile-Lascannon Devs since they can really hurt armor but that said there’s still lots of units that can nuke them from range like Helvrins or Knights in general. I don’t actually use HBs amymore but they always did some work... the AP4 is really good. I like plasinceptors too since you can deep strike them.

[Lemondish]

I don’t see any value in plasdevs unless maybe you’re running DA.

With respect, then I don't think you've been reading the thread. To summarize, above Hellblasters they...

 

Come cheaper.

 

Don't need to move to maximize damage.

 

Can include ablative wounds so they don't lose damage linearly as they take casualties (DW can solve this, but codex Hellblasters cannot).

 

Statistically higher shot output at a greater range.

 

Immune to 2 damage weapons, making them a much less effective weapon to target them with.

 

Can be deployed in transports if you so choose, providing cheap protection turn 1 without giving up shooting (codex Hellblasters are stuck with Repulsors and DW ones need to spend a limited CP fueled Stratagem that silences you in the first turn).

 

Hellblasters can get around some of these limitations on a situational basis - but they aren't as flexible.

 

But the biggest problem for both is that there are cheaper, more effectively units that do both their jobs better.

[Race Bannon]

Are we talking tactics now?

 

There's a forum for that ^_^

[Panzer]

 

I don’t see any value in plasdevs unless maybe you’re running DA.

With respect, then I don't think you've been reading the thread. To summarize, above Hellblasters they...

 

Come cheaper.

 

Don't need to move to maximize damage.

 

Can include ablative wounds so they don't lose damage linearly as they take casualties (DW can solve this, but codex Hellblasters cannot).

 

Statistically higher shot output at a greater range.

 

Immune to 2 damage weapons, making them a much less effective weapon to target them with.

 

Can be deployed in transports if you so choose, providing cheap protection turn 1 without giving up shooting (codex Hellblasters are stuck with Repulsors and DW ones need to spend a limited CP fueled Stratagem that silences you in the first turn).

 

Hellblasters can get around some of these limitations on a situational basis - but they aren't as flexible.

 

But the biggest problem for both is that there are cheaper, more effectively units that do both their jobs better.

 

 

To be fair those aren't all advantages.

They don't have to move to maximize their damage, but they also can't move to gain line of sight without losing lots of damage output due carrying heavy weapons. Not to mention that 1d3 shots are kinda unreliable. Also Hellblaster have AP-4 which doesn't make a huge difference but there's always the odd 6 on the saving throw ruining a regular Plasma shots day against Sv3+ targets.

 

They aren't "immune" to D2 weapons, but they make them less efficient ... however on the other hand Hellblaster make D1 weapons less efficient so it's kinda a wash, really.

 

Hellblaster are "stuck" with Repulsors, however Repulsors are great tanks and every Primaris player should consider using those. It's not like they have to ride in Landraider who really are bad. Also if you put Plasma cannon Devastators into a transport they shoot with -1 to-hit the turn they disembark due carrying Heavy weapons again.

 

 

If the Devastators have clear line of sight and things in range and you roll a nice average for your 1d3 shots and the enemy overinvested in D2 weapons then yes they are clearly better. However if there's lots of LoS blocking terrain and the enemy isn't spamming D2 weapons then I'd put my money on Hellblaster for sure. Considering they can move&shoot just fine and don't HAVE to be in Rapid fire range to shoot at all I'd actually say they are more flexible than Devastators.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hellblasters are much more versatile being able to move and shoot without penalty. Plasdevs can have a hard time just getting decent los. Hellblasters are okay in melee too. Some people act like every enemy gun is -3AP doing at least two damage but even a player sometimes rolls a 1 for d6 damage.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Some people act like every enemy gun is -3AP doing at least two damage but even a player sometimes rolls a 1 for d6 damage.

IDK who you play against, but with my opponents, you can bet they're gonna roll a 6 every time 

 

I still support Devastators though. I don't have a single Plasma Dev Squad, I've packed the Plasma into my Crusader Squads, but the Dev Squads I've painted, they quite reliably kill a lot of stuff. And frankly, if they can't get LOS with a 36" Plasma Cannon, how are Hellblasters with a 30" Plasma whatchamacallit supposed to?

 

I use my Dev Squads as one reliable Heavy Weapon with ablative wounds around it, granted, but it works.

 

And against my favorite opponent who I'd really like to beat again for a change one of these days (it's been too long, she's getting too good), my Lieutenant has been obliterated by a Tac Squad with a heavy weapon in our last 3 (!) games, and I've really tried to keep the guy alive that last time.

If that gun was firing at -1, imagine what the Signum would do.

 

Then again, dead is dead, so how much more dead could my Lt be?

 

Also, and this might be more to the point, a Hellblaster Squad degrades heavily in terms of wounds per point compared to the output at full strength, so your initial investment will fall apart quickly. A Dev Squad doesn't need to do that, you can pack as many Bolter Marines in there as you like.

And they might be expensive for cannon fodder, but show me a cheap Primaris bubblewrap unit please...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like I said I don’t use HBs any more but they did quite good for me. Devs wouldn’t work for me because I don’t have a lot of multiple units I can deploy in sight of the opponent. HBs can deploy inside a ruin the pop out at the right time. I just see Knights shredding Devs real fast.

[SydonianDragoon404]

And they might be expensive for cannon fodder, but show me a cheap Primaris bubblewrap unit please...

 

 

You know what this just made me think of? "Man, I haven't taken my Reivers in so long, they're so useless... wait... I have an idea". 

 

You guys know how Reivers are supposed to be "terror troops"? Like sowing discord and panic among enemy lines? Well how about this, instead of uselessly effecting the enemy's leadership value, how about they cause panic in a different way?

 

They scare the hell out of any infantry unit with a leadership value below 8 (so Skitarii, Guardsmen, Cultists, Guardians your typical chaff units) forcing them to shoot the Reivers if the are the closest unit to them. 

 

Wouldn't that be something?! Then Reivers would actually have a use, and we would have a pseudo bubble wrap unit for primaris. 

 

It would also be an indirect buff to more elite infantry units if we had more things that had a similar effect to this. I think the Ld stat is quite underutilized and could really help some of the games current problems with balancing elite infantry vs cheap chaff. 

[Ishagu]

I run Reivers all the time. 100 points for a unit with 10 wounds that can drop in anywhere abs score me objectives.

 

They are very good, with utility beyond just math hammer killing power.

[Volt]

Deathwatch has definitely improved seeing as they can run entire squads of veterans decked out with 3++'s for a mere 2 points, slap a storm bolter on it, and for 6 points get 20/40 shots with special issue ammo. I don't expect the "traditional" chapters to change much from CA18 beyond maybe terminators showing up outside of purely narrative tailored games so they don't get stomped - but Deathwatch is going to kick ass. 

[Panzer]

And frankly, if they can't get LOS with a 36" Plasma Cannon, how are Hellblasters with a 30" Plasma whatchamacallit supposed to?

 

By walking. It's really not a hard concept that a unit that doesn't get a penalty for moving&shooting is more efficient at moving around LoS blocking terrain&shooting lol

 

They are very good, with utility beyond just math hammer killing power.

I wouldn't say they are very good but they are okay-ish. I still prefer Inceptors for anything deepstriking Reivers would do and Intercessors for anything non-deepstriking Reivers would do.

[Volt]

 

And frankly, if they can't get LOS with a 36" Plasma Cannon, how are Hellblasters with a 30" Plasma whatchamacallit supposed to?

 

By walking. It's really not a hard concept that a unit that doesn't get a penalty for moving&shooting is more efficient at moving around LoS blocking terrain&shooting lol

 

They are very good, with utility beyond just math hammer killing power.

I wouldn't say they are very good but they are okay-ish. I still prefer Inceptors for anything deepstriking Reivers would do and Intercessors for anything non-deepstriking Reivers would do.

 

Honestly the best thing about Reivers is just throwing our Black Templar players a bone by giving them access to a deepstriking crusader squad. 

[Ishagu]

 

 

And frankly, if they can't get LOS with a 36" Plasma Cannon, how are Hellblasters with a 30" Plasma whatchamacallit supposed to?

 

By walking. It's really not a hard concept that a unit that doesn't get a penalty for moving&shooting is more efficient at moving around LoS blocking terrain&shooting lol

They are very good, with utility beyond just math hammer killing power.

I wouldn't say they are very good but they are okay-ish. I still prefer Inceptors for anything deepstriking Reivers would do and Intercessors for anything non-deepstriking Reivers would do.

Inceptors are specifically focused on offence and you would never leave them on an objective instead of using them to eliminate enemy infantry.

[HighMarshalAmp]

 

And frankly, if they can't get LOS with a 36" Plasma Cannon, how are Hellblasters with a 30" Plasma whatchamacallit supposed to?

 

By walking. It's really not a hard concept that a unit that doesn't get a penalty for moving&shooting is more efficient at moving around LoS blocking terrain&shooting lol

There's a huge difference between being able to get LOS and being able to use LOS - believe me, I always manage to learn that the hard way.

 

If BS and weapon stats are part of "getting LOS" as well, and then, 1 Hellblaster with a Heavy Plasma Incinerator would be just as good as the average Plasma Cannon at 36" after it has moved.

If we continue down that path, a 97pts Dev Squad with 2 Plasma Cannons would dish out exactly half as much as a 175pts Hellblaster Squad at 36" after having moved to get better LOS - not accounting for the Signum or the fugly Cherub.

To double the Devs wound count, either add 5 Bolter Marines for a total of 167 points OR another 97pts Squad for the exact damage of a Hellblaster Squad and the same amount of wounds plus boosted immunity to D2+ weapons with double the body count, less dakka degradation when the first few models are lost and all that at only 19pts more - and you get the Signum and the ugly Cherub. Twice.

 

And now imagine: what if the Plasdev Squads didn't have to move? Or even only one of them?

 

The surprising conclusion: You shouldn't take Hellblasters at range 

But who takes them for their Heavy guns anyway? They want to be at 15" where no Dev Squad has ever wanted to be.

 

Because maybe, just maybe, those two units aren't meant to fill the same spot?

[Panzer]

 

 

And frankly, if they can't get LOS with a 36" Plasma Cannon, how are Hellblasters with a 30" Plasma whatchamacallit supposed to?

By walking. It's really not a hard concept that a unit that doesn't get a penalty for moving&shooting is more efficient at moving around LoS blocking terrain&shooting lol

They are very good, with utility beyond just math hammer killing power.

I wouldn't say they are very good but they are okay-ish. I still prefer Inceptors for anything deepstriking Reivers would do and Intercessors for anything non-deepstriking Reivers would do.

Inceptors are specifically focused on offence and you would never leave them on an objective instead of using them to eliminate enemy infantry.

 

With 18" range you usually have enough targets in range while sitting on mid-field objectives. 

 

 

 

And frankly, if they can't get LOS with a 36" Plasma Cannon, how are Hellblasters with a 30" Plasma whatchamacallit supposed to?

 

By walking. It's really not a hard concept that a unit that doesn't get a penalty for moving&shooting is more efficient at moving around LoS blocking terrain&shooting lol

There's a huge difference between being able to get LOS and being able to use LOS - believe me, I always manage to learn that the hard way.

 

If BS and weapon stats are part of "getting LOS" as well, and then, 1 Hellblaster with a Heavy Plasma Incinerator would be just as good as the average Plasma Cannon at 36" after it has moved.

 

 

Why the hell are you suddenly talking about Hellblaster using the Heavy variant when I was talking about the advantages of Hellblaster with the Rapid fire variant? 

[HighMarshalAmp]

Why the hell are you suddenly talking about Hellblaster using the Heavy variant when I was talking about the advantages of Hellblaster with the Rapid fire variant? 

Because if the LOS discussion simply omits 6" of range, it's moot anyway and because the Heavy variant is the deadliest weapon at range the Hellblasters have and their holding up against a moving Dev squad just goes downhill from there.

[Panzer]

I don't see how range is of interest when it's about LoS. Or are you implying that weapons with more range have automatically better LoS? 

[HighMarshalAmp]

I don't see how range is of interest when it's about LoS. Or are you implying that weapons with more range have automatically better LoS? 

My initial reasoning was this: after someone said that Devs can have a hard time getting LOS and Hellblasters were more versatile because they could move and shoot without penalty, I questioned if that was true.

 

After all, assuming that the two units in question start at the same point and both move their full 6", they can both get the same LOS, with the Devs having an additional 6" of weapon range and a penalty for moving.

 

You then said it wasn't a difficult concept that a unit that didn't get a penalty for moving was more efficient at circumnavigating LOS blockers - AND at shooting.

I disagree. If that unit starts in the same place and moves around without penalty, it only becomes more efficient if it does indeed pack more of a punch than the other unit does with a penalty for moving. And the odds are quite balanced there, so no, they are not better at shooting just because they don't have a penalty.

 

Finally, of course weapons with more range don't have better LOS. They have the same LOS. Which is why I said that having it and using it are two different things.

The RF Hellbalsters who move around without penalty, who start in the same place as the Devs for the sake of comparison, can have all the LOS they want. They just have a range of 30" to make use of that. The Dev Squad, after starting in the same place as the Hellblasters and moving the same distance, can fire further along that LOS while, with the right list, causing the same amount of wounds or more.

 

So whichever way you spin it, Hellblasters aren't better at shooting because they can move around without penalty and the concept isn't so easy after all.

 

So no, range is of no interest whatsoever for LOS, but it is if you're trying to find out if some unit is better at shooting than another one.

[9x19 Parabellum]

The other thing I'll add to this is that my Plas Devastators are never for lack of a target.  The unique profile of the plasma gun means they almost always have something to shoot at.  Perched in elevated ruins, with 36", it's rare that they don't have line of site to something worthwhile to shoot.  I grant you that an opponent can move their optimal target out of LOS, and if I'm unwilling to shift them (and I often would be), then, yes, they would not be able to shoot at their optimal target. That doesn't mean they don't get to shoot at something worthwhile, however, as plasma works well against MEQ, TEQ, light vehicles, and even real vehicles if I overcharge.  And even when I do need to move them 2 shots hitting on 4's is better than 1 shot hitting on 3's.

 

I've found the -4 AP of Hellblaster guns to be largely redundant/marginal.  There are very few units that have a high enough armor save AND a lack of invuln save to actually make this worthwhile.

 

Again, not saying that Hellblasters are trash.  Just saying I don't think there is a clear frontrunner between the 2.  That being said, I actually prefer the assault variant on my Hellblasters, because I like having those 2 shots out to 24" and keeping my -1 to be hit RG tactic as long as possible.   

[Panzer]

Just saying I don't think there is a clear frontrunner between the 2. 

 

Neither do I. I just don't agree that Plasma cannon Devs are clearly better than Hellblaster either. ^^

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Just saying I don't think there is a clear frontrunner between the 2. 

 

Neither do I. I just don't agree that Plasma cannon Devs are clearly better than Hellblaster either. ^^

 

 

 Right. Nor do I.  My initial comment was in response to Black Orange in post 121  "Hellblasters are way better..."  That statement is, at best, highly subjective, and at worst, flat wrong.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Plasdevs are suspect AH.

[Basteala]

The thing right now is that two Dev squads with 4 plasma costs less than 8 Hellblasters (258 vs 264). Hellblasters in a vaccum are superior, but those points cuts shouldn't be ignored--you're essentially looking at 8D3 shots 8 at range. Hellblasters are better late game, arguably, but early game is still really important. 

 

Mind you, I preferred Hellblasters pre CA. I think those 8 points off per plasma dev is worth a lot. 20% discount is nothing to scoff at.

[Ishagu]

Really it's good for the army. One option is no longer clearly superior to another.