Indomitus Crusaders - call to action, please read!

[Slothysaur]

It seems to me like this is exactly like the Skyhammer Annihilation Force formation from 7th edition. It's a Codex: Space Marine detachment. It's not a Codex: Blood Angels (or any other non-Space Marine Space Marine) detachment. I can't find it because I'm on a phone but I'd bet my Astraeus that we have an old forum post here with the same exact subject matter about the above 7th ed. formations we do here. We tend to view all Space Marines as a whole and this edition has magnified that due to the <chapter> thingy. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc. are not Codex: Space Marines. We're looking for something to tell us we can use it, but its not there.

 

Hope this doesn't come off as rude, just calling it as I see it. I would love to use this with BA myself, but I don't see that happening officially. Houseruling is completely viable though :)

[neonmole]

It’s not rude at all.

 

The issue I have, and the issue most have I believe, is that it’s unfluffy.

 

GW explicitly stated that these specialist detachments were designed to support the fluff, not be competitive powerhouses. BA/DA etc being barred from this is completely nonsensical from a fluff perspective.

 

If the detachment had the exact same rules but was named something like “disciples of the codex”, or something similarly reflecting adherence to the codex astartes (and associated chapters) I would have no problem with it.

[Lemondish]

Since it says "this section" and doesn't extend this set of definitions found in the Space Marine Units beyond that, I'm not sure that it's entirely clear that it does apply to the Vigilus book. I'm inclined to believe that it does, because this is the only place that a "Space Marines Detachment" is really defined, and because all the other Specialist Detachments specify a Chapter keyword (Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars, Dark Angels, Space Wolves) seems to indicate to me that there is supposed to be something specific about the term "Space Marines Detachment."

 

Definitely need a FAQ on this one, IMO. I don't really see why the other Marines forces with Codexes that had Primaris in the Indomitus Crusade wouldn't also get something like this or access to this specific Specialist Detachment, but I am not a GW rules author either.

 

I'm all for clarity from GW, so bring on an FAQ if people think it's needed, but I also think it's pretty clearly not allowed right now per the rules. Space Marines detachments are from Codex Space Marines - so are Space Marine stratagems. Blood Angels have Blood Angels detachments and Blood Angels stratagems. If the intent is to allow this, but not everything else they've separated, then it'll have to come from an errata - so bring on more clarity. 

 

But I totally agree...every Primaris should have the option of being part of the Indomitus Crusade because, well, they could have been. 

 

However...

 

I think our feedback should include improving the costs for this. Missing out on it is pretty tough - but it isn't very good at all. That makes it unlikely to get fixed. When you're writing for clarification to the FAQ email, I'd say you should also request it be cleaned up to be more effective and less costly from a CP perspective. 

[The Angel]

We may see a Blood Angel's version of this in the next Vigilus book, so it may just be a case of patience. But I do agree that it is annoying if we cannot use it. 

[Bryan Blaire]

I'm all for clarity from GW, so bring on an FAQ if people think it's needed, but I also think it's pretty clearly not allowed right now per the rules. Space Marines detachments are from Codex Space Marines - so are Space Marine stratagems. Blood Angels have Blood Angels detachments and Blood Angels stratagems. If the intent is to allow this, but not everything else they've separated, then it'll have to come from an errata - so bring on more clarity. 

 

But I totally agree...every Primaris should have the option of being part of the Indomitus Crusade because, well, they could have been. 

 

However...

 

I think our feedback should include improving the costs for this. Missing out on it is pretty tough - but it isn't very good at all. That makes it unlikely to get fixed. When you're writing for clarification to the FAQ email, I'd say you should also request it be cleaned up to be more effective and less costly from a CP perspective.

 

I agree that this seems like it should be clear cut, based on the terms used, it would just be nice for GW to clarify if the "Space Marines Detachment" concept is effectively a keyword just like Ultramarines, etc. - they could have even done that in the C:SM text if they' just called the section "Space Marines Detachments" instead of "Space Marine Units."

 

And I really wonder if during the Indomitus Crusade, all Primaris, regardless of gene-line, all fought in the same way (per the Codex Astartes), or were there some specialty Crusade units made up of one gene-line that fought in a more "appropriate to them" fashion? I haven't read the new era fluff BL stuff, so not sure if that's already been fully answered, but perhaps the BA/DA/SW can't use this one because there might be an Indomitus Crusade based Specialist Detachment more appropriate to them coming...

[Panzer]

Afaik they were all mixed during the Indomitus Crusade. No bloodline specific battlegroups.

[Cleon]

To be honest it makes sense to me that the Blood Angels (and Dark Angels) can't use it - simply because to use the warlord trait you need a copy (or access to a copy) of codex space marines for the chapter traits - the Marines that can use it already have this because they are in the main codex. Conversely I don't think the trait should be expanded to let other Marines use the Blood angels bonus (it's who they are, not how they fight).

 

Now if we were suggesting that we could access the formation without accessing the trait, then I'd be more open to it, but that's more rules.

[neonmole]

You can make an argument for why BA/DA etc shouldn’t be able to use this, but carrying more than one book is not one of those reasons.

 

Given the way army composition works in 8th, and what your average list looks like this is just not a valid reason.

 

The idea of mono codex is not one that is promoted by the rules.

[Panzer]

Chaos Marines even got a rule to summon units from another Codex and while they got some of the basic daemons included in their codex for reference it's not a full list of units they could summon so they'd need a second book as well.

 

About the learned vs natural trait argument ... I'd say all of the traits are to some degree natural as well. If they were all just learned traits then there wouldn't have been a need for different geneseeds. It's just that the Red Thirst is quite a bit more on the nose than lets say the Ultramarine Chapter Tactic.

[Bryan Blaire]

Per the Vigilus FAQ, a BA, DA, SW, or DW detachment is not able to use the Indomitus Crusaders Special Detachment. They have stated that the Codex: Space Marines statement of a Space Marines Detachment is a definition that applies outside of that book.

[Panzer]

Yeah I just read it as well. Bummer.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Such a missed opportunity and conflict in the lore. Oh well. No surprise there.

[The4thHorseman]

Guess we have yet to join the Crusade. On the shelf the Primaris go.

[Panzer]

And here I was already looking forward to use Unleash Rage on a unit of Veteran Intercessors. 

[neonmole]

Also saw this.

 

Ah well, we tried. Thanks for your efforts guys. Frustrating, but not the end of the world...

 

Onwards and upwards!

[Lemondish]

It's certainly good that there's no further confusion about what is or is not a space marine detachment, but it certainly is a bit of a bummer that it isn't available to everybody.

 

But I don't think the biggest issues with the detachment is how expensive it is for what it does. I had hoped for changes on that front, but I suppose that's still too soon.