Sword Brethren - Vigilus Special Detachment - And You

[Schlitzaf]

@Medjugorje I've identified buffing characters like darkstrider, weirdboys, and bilepipers to be a serious problem in my local meta, so I am planning to utilize a squad of 10 primaris vets with stalker bolt rifles to use the target acquired strat. I know its the most inefficient build, but I'm not sure how else to try and get rid of these guys when they're hiding behind three ranks of infantry. I don't use sniper scouts and don't really plan to so this seems to be the best option.

 

I do plan to also run a squad with either regular bolt rifles or assault bolters to make use of the other stratagems in that detachment, my main issue with the bolt rifle strat is that people know about it and I don't see any viable ways to get 10 guys in close enough to really make use of it. At least with the assault bolters I can advanced on my way up.

JumpPack characters are the best marine specific answers. If you want to get technical. Through personally. I do love the stalker and there strategem because less risk. And using your heavy hitter on suicide missions.

 

For context 10 Stalkers vs T4 do (with Marshall/Castallen rerolls) do about 4.5 Woundd and 1 mortal. That means vs 3+ no IV your doing 4 Wounds (Dead Liutanent). It’s 180 points to kill 60 in general that is around what you get. As most units in a single phase only kill 1/3 there point value worth of points.

 

Take an Ork Character? That is 6ish Wounds. 5 with FNP. Dead Weird or Pain. Gaurdsman? You hit about 7.8 times with Marshall. You wound 6 and get 1 mortal wound with Castallen. Dealing 7 wounds. That two Gaurdsman worth of characters. And your spending a net 3 CP. And avoid risking our characters.

[Acebaur]

Guys please keep the discussion to the loadouts and tactics for units with the sword Brethren keyword. Primaris cannot have this keyword so let's leave them out of it.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Last I'll say on it is that Jump Pack characters as an answer is dead because of the FAQ on using the fly keyword in the assault phase. You can't jump over the chaff anymore when you charge in. 

 

I'm going to be finished painting my sword brethren very soon. Will post up on my crusade thread once their done. Also some other random things I've been working on as well. Can't wait to try it out. 

[AlmightyWalrus]

Storm Bolter/Chainsword Sword Brethren are still pretty juicy. 16 points, 4 shots, 3 attacks.

[Firepower]

But is it worth paying 2 CP for, at most, 5 extra chainsword attacks? I think if we are to bother using the strats on vets at all, they either need to be a durable wall (limited by single wound models, even with shields) or hit hard with those extra attacks, which chainsword won't do.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Nope. Go hard or go home I say.

[FabulousRex]

I agree! Fielding them all as super dangerous is better with regards to threat saturation. 100 for PW/SS, 160 for THs. The extra 60% points more than doubles their threat. And losing a 160p squad isn't too bad if you're transporting them.

 

Tide armies get bullet magnets extraordinare...

[arigatous]

I want to try hammer/shield setup for Vets on bikes. When a unit has 3++ and 5+++, T5 W2 is not exactly the same as T4 W1 ;)

[Acebaur]

But is it worth paying 2 CP for, at most, 5 extra chainsword attacks? I think if we are to bother using the strats on vets at all, they either need to be a durable wall (limited by single wound models, even with shields) or hit hard with those extra attacks, which chainsword won't do.

Agree 100% it's not like we are talking about an extra 15 points a model here for PW. The extra damage is absolutely worth 4 points. And if you are running then with Helbrecht they become even better

[Honda]

I think I'm going to figure out how to make some maces and morning stars (with glowey weapon effect) for "counts as" power weapon. Then they can represent anything I want.

[Crimson cowboy]

I know it isn’t really company vets per say....but I ran a 2000 point game last night to teach my cousin the basics....he ran imperial guard and blood angels (idk why but he didn’t want to use commands and such...so all I used was chapter tactics) in my list I didn’t use the company vets but I ran 2 vanguard units with jump packs both haveing 3 TH/SS and 2 LC each....and they completely decimated his sanguinary guards and I was about to rip apart his last leman Russ before he conceited.....the entire game he hid his Dante from me....and for my brothers who love their LRC mine held up and entire 6 turns from his poor shooting and that I destroyed a lot of his heavy weaponry with my faux Devi back fielders ...but as soon as my EC and his 14 man unit stepped out the LRC he threw in the towel right when I had Dante pinned for the charge

 

My vets alone ripped apart so much without a captain or any buffs......I like the go big or go home method....so to have company vets not only wreak and destroy things in their path....but to dump out of a LRC with helbrechts buffs and even Grimaldus is glorious....and I was so close to achieving

 

For any that decide to ask....it was a basic destroy game where to teach him...I had our 3 named characters...3 tide 3 faux Devi....2 vanguards and 2 LRC....I wiped out almost everything of his....and only lost 1 tide due to being left out in the open after combat

[Marshal Vespasian]

My current plan to fit in my first blue print for 2k is:

 

Power axe/ss

Chaplain

Ec

 

In a drop pod.

 

Maybe we can call power axe ss with Chaplain fauxHelbrechtVets ;)

 

I'll post the rest of my planned list in my crusade thread

[Marshal Laeroth]

Here my feeling, I think folks are focusing too much on the Veteran not enough on the Warlord aspect. Or to put it a better way.

 

Company Veterans if you go Shield/Sword are 20 points for 2A Power Weapon 3++. Or Sword/SBolter. Remember that Grey Knight players complain about there 21 point multidamage, Storm Bolter armed, 2A Power Sword Models are overpriced. While I don’t agree with that assessment. Being factually wrong (the GK are not overpriced, it’s SM Chassis but different discussion).

 

Now before someone leaps on me and says “Warlord Trait has been the focus of discussion” bear with me for a moment. A Captain with SShield/THammer (and potentially Pack) is around 105 points with 5 Wounds. Essentially paying around 21 points a wound.

 

How many points were we paying for our Veterans? 16-20 depending on our setup. Company Veterans have a “look out rule”. Normally this isn’t terrible relavent but considering we are likely airdropping our characters and sense we want them to charge, we need them in front and/or leaving a path open to charge. Meaning if we fail, they are vulnerable to smite and shooting.

 

In otherwords that otherwise normally ‘useless’ rule. Now is incredibly relavent. While I am not advocating taking a bunch of naked Sword Brothern. I am advocating when your building not looking solely at the killy aspect.

 

But think that for each Sword Brother your buying an additional wound for our characters. Which is why I return to my “focus on Warlord”. We have at worst 3 super killy affordable heroes in our lists. Helbrect or SmashMarshall, Emperor’s Champion, TeethCastallen Or TeethMarshall. And they are high priority targets both for snipers, including the Knight kind. And being setup for smite or attacks first in melee.

 

And because there multi-damage high attack Weapons in general the better usage of our Strategems (exception being 1W MeQ models). Our opponents more likely hard target in melee. So they will try and murder. You have your 3++, then pop the Strategems for FNP. If you still fail pass the would to our company Veterans. Take for example 6 Wounds from a THammer.

 

You fail 2 of them. 6 damage. Now here where it gets in interesting. So you think popping our FNP on Marshall? It dependings in how many models in veteran squad.

 

4-5 you pop on Veterans as you move Wounds. As the Marshall still effective as long as he has 1 wound (through admittedly I’d like to keep him on a healthy 2-3 wounds). But any veterans losing wounds, is a effectiveness loss. So it’s actually a rather interesting thing.

 

That's exactly it.  We are most effective delivering characters into combat, as evidenced by our CT (though admittedly, we were a much larger 1st turn threat prior to spring FAQ) and the new rules clearly support that.  Company Veterans are perfect character support and can be armed in numerous ways.  Even so, I think there is a clear choice on what that wargear should be.  Helbrecht led?  Swords and Storm Shields.  Helbrecht's aura makes the main disadvantage of swords irrelevant (Str = user), while keeping the superior AP.  Characters without Helbrecht?  TH/PF and Storm Shield.  But I think that this second one is a bit...expensive, especially if you are going to be eating wounds with them.  Ultimately, I don't think these Vets should leave home without SS's...ever.  Especially at 2 points a piece.

 

At the same time, while the strategems/Helbrecht combo make these guys crazy in close combat...they kind of are cheap, throwaway units too.  Use some Storm Bolter/Storm Shield Vets as bubble wrap for your more vulnerable units.  Throw them into combat with your opponent's rock units and laugh when they are having to bust through 3++ saves and FNP.  100 points to slow down an entire mob of Orcs, Daemons, Nids, or whatever.  Stupid silly not to, in my opinion.

 

But is it worth paying 2 CP for, at most, 5 extra chainsword attacks? I think if we are to bother using the strats on vets at all, they either need to be a durable wall (limited by single wound models, even with shields) or hit hard with those extra attacks, which chainsword won't do.

 

No, its not imo.  In the land of already tight CP usage, I don't think we should be wasting the 2 CP strategem on anything that is not high-level close combat gear.  So I agree with you there.

[Acebaur]

Marshal Laeroth you speak wise words brother. If running multiple units with Helbrecht what do think of sprinkling a few ranged weapons in the second squad?

[Marshal Laeroth]

Marshal Laeroth you speak wise words brother. If running multiple units with Helbrecht what do think of sprinkling a few ranged weapons in the second squad?

 

Quite honestly, I was talking with Schlitzaf about this a bit already.  I don't think its a bad idea at all.  Personally, I would almost encourage it to put out mid-range wounds consistently.  Those guys are better to eat wounds while you are getting to close combat if you don't have a delivery method (e.g. drop pod) so that you don't lose efficiency from your close combat unit.  And...logistically, you could also can create another character driven tide "unit" with them if you wanted to.  Even if they are technically multiple units.  Just keep them close enough together to be able to eat wounds, but also gain those aura's from your characters (notably Helbrecht).  Then you can peel off units as they are moving up the board as you need to or to engage different units your opponent has. 

 

Veterans have a lot of options that I admittedly did not explore much due to their price tag and the cost of their wargear.  With the point reductions and the new strategems, they are ridiculously good.  I personally believe they are as close to must take units for us as we've seen in 8th edition.

[Firepower]

For 570 points, you can have 30 Sword Brethren, half with Storm Bolters, half with Power Swords, all with Shields. Stick Helbrecht and a Lieutenant in the middle of that and you've damn near got an old school death star.

 

I'm coming to the regrettable realization that I have nowhere near enough shields in my bitz supply for this :(

 

I did however have a fun giggle just now when my phone auto corrected "Storm Bolters" to "Storm Hooters" :teehee:

[Marshal Laeroth]

For 570 points, you can have 30 Sword Brethren, half with Storm Bolters, half with Power Swords, all with Shields. Stick Helbrecht and a Lieutenant in the middle of that and you've damn near got an old school death star.

 

I'm coming to the regrettable realization that I have nowhere near enough shields in my bitz supply for this

 

I did however have a fun giggle just now when my phone auto corrected "Storm Bolters" to "Storm Hooters"

 

Sadly, remember that there is a 3 unit limit on "spam".  So we're stuck with a limit of 15 Sword Brethren Vets.  Still nothing to sneeze at though.  Especially if you get REALLY crafty and add an Apothecary/Company Ancient to the mix.  Then I really get to laugh.

[Acebaur]

What sort of spread would you recommend Laeroth for their ranged weapons?

[Firepower]

Oh yeah, forgot about the 3 unit limit :(

[Marshal Laeroth]

What sort of spread would you recommend Laeroth for their ranged weapons?

 

I currently am dabbling with the Helbrecht led 5-man PwS/SS unit, with 2 5-man units of Storm Bolters/SS.  With the meta really screaming mob infantry right now, the storm bolters give the most bang for my buck against infantry.  I have also thought about adding some combi-plasma to those squads, but I really can't get behind a 110 points of combi-plasma unless I have some way to deliver that plasma someplace.  Heck, even grav-guns might even be worth taking, but their range is a little bit concerning.

 

So my head is kinda behind the 1 CC unit and 2 mid-range shooty/SS support squads so to keep roles defined.  If I was doing a "tide" squad, I would probably distribute more CC into those squads to bolster the power sword numbers in case they are targeted frequently.  But then again, an apothecary will help with that.  That's what is great about this...so many options to play around with.

[Firepower]

Hmm, just went through the bits box.  Gonna need to find a different source of shields.  Most power weapons seem to be left handed, including our own.  

 

Anyone know good 3rd party sources with right handed/ambidextrous shields?

[Marshal Vespasian]

Fireforge Games do historic knightly order shields:

 

https://www.fantasywelt.de/Teutonic-Knights-Shields

 

If I remember correctly the ones from Scibor were handless

[Adalger]

Hi Firepower, why not use right hand GK falchions?

I am using the FW BT shields for my Terminators and keep the original Terminator shields for the servo-armour guys.

[Schlitzaf]

Hmm, just went through the bits box. Gonna need to find a different source of shields. Most power weapons seem to be left handed, including our own.

 

Anyone know good 3rd party sources with right handed/ambidextrous shields?

Templar Brothern Upgrade Kit comes with plentiful amount of Storm Shields and Power Swords just need to scrap off the Fist logo on the Shield.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I jokingly said on my FLGS' FB page that there was no way I would swap Storm Shields and THs after the BT Vigilus leaks and someone in the group offered me 10 spare FW shields for a tenner! Awesome!