Dark Compliance and Black Shields

[TheTrans]

Hey gang,

 

I'm looking at starting a 30k army, and after an oddly recent fascination with thunder warriors I'd love to have a loosely based army built around maybe some thunder warriors on ice (as opposed to disney on ice) that have been arc'd up, or something similar to the limping along outcast dead sort of set up.

But to have them looking, big, scary and rare, I feel they need to be surround by a rabble of human/xenos/scum.

So obviously a good starting point for the S5/T5 is our good Blackshiedl Chimerae friends, which can't have an allied detachment (but from what I can see, can BE an allied detachment) but thats not why I'm here, I'm trying to use Legiones Astartes (Black Shields) in a Dark Compliance List. 

So my main questions are, in regards to the rules..well in a nut shell can it be done, if not, then why?

As far as I can see, as long as a Legion Astartes (x) can be a traitor, which Blackshields nominally can be, Can be lead by a Praetor/Centuiron/Consul (which blackshields can be for the last two) then you are set from that angle.

 

No from the Black Shield Perspective, the main thing I'm trying to rock is the S5/T5 Chimerae Wrought by War.. now to get the Wrought by War, you need to be in a 'Black Shields Detachment'... what does that mean exactly or what is required for that to work, as if it doens't, the whole thing will sadly be for nought :'(. 

Bonus round.. if all of the above works, obviously I can't use Marauder squads, but the Reaver Lord does say "...which in the case of the Reaver Lord replaces the Legion Praetor normally available to the Space Marine Crusade army.". 

Now does this allow :A. The Reaver Lord to be used in the Dark Compliance army as it 'replaces' the Legion Praetor in the Crusade list
                                  B. Allow the Reaver Lord to be used as the Praetor as the warlord in a DC list?

None of this is meant to rules lawyer-e or trying to game the situation or what not.. i just want big, strong, tough slow bois with lots of little scrubs running around to show how big and tough they are :P.

 

Thanks in advance,
Nick

[Gorgoff]

Since Army of Dark Complience only can take units taken from thr legiones Astartes and Militia List, and a Black Shield army has to take a Reaver Lord and Marauders as compulsory units which both aren't on neither of these lists I'd say ruleswise you cannot do that, sadly.

[Soldier of Dorn]

They're not compulsory units for a Blackshields list, though? They (effectively) replace Tacticals and (explicitly) replace Praetors, but they're not compulsory. You have other HQ and Troops options available to you. Or at least, so far as I'm reading the rules in Retribution they're not, and I've never heard that they are before. Would appreciate a page citation on that if you would, Gorgoff.

 

Furthermore, the exact requirements for the Army of Dark Compliance in Retribution are prescriptive rather than restrictive in that "[t]he Primary Detachment in an Army of Dark Compliance is chosen using units drawn from both the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army list and the Imperialis Militia and Cults army list." It does not emphatically say that these can be the only sources for units in the army, presumably just so that units in the Legion-specific appendices could be included as well (which from a pedantic standpoint, are not actually part of the Legiones Astartes Army List.) Considering that the verbiage in both the case of the Blackshields and the appendices are generally similar -- "In addition to those found in the Crusade Army list (subject to the previous restrictions) a Blackshield detachment has access to additional units" (Retribution, pg. 220) vs. "In addition to those found in the Crusade Army list, the Iron Warriors Legion has access to additional units" (Age of Darkness Legions, pg. 19) -- the units named should therefore be treated similarly. Additionally, this particular phrasing means that you would be able to take Agents of the Warmaster (i.e., a Navigator) as well. So you should be able to take both Marauder Squads and Reaver Lords.

 

Unfortunately, while you would be able to use Reaver Lords in the list and the entry does say that it replaces the Praetor "normally available to the Space Marine Crusade army," it never says that it is interchangeable for one where other rules are concerned.  So you'd have to take a Centurion or your Consul to be the army's Warlord, from a strict RAW interpretation.

 

(Personally, though, I think that's BS and would let you run it as the army's warlord.)

 

So in summary, A: yes, B: no.

[TheTrans]

They're not compulsory units for a Blackshields list, though? They (effectively) replace Tacticals and (explicitly) replace Praetors, but they're not compulsory. You have other HQ and Troops options available to you. Or at least, so far as I'm reading the rules in Retribution they're not, and I've never heard that they are before. Would appreciate a page citation on that if you would, Gorgoff.

 

Furthermore, the exact requirements for the Army of Dark Compliance in Retribution are prescriptive rather than restrictive in that "[t]he Primary Detachment in an Army of Dark Compliance is chosen using units drawn from both the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army list and the Imperialis Militia and Cults army list." It does not emphatically say that these can be the only sources for units in the army, presumably just so that units in the Legion-specific appendices could be included as well (which from a pedantic standpoint, are not actually part of the Legiones Astartes Army List.) Considering that the verbiage in both the case of the Blackshields and the appendices are generally similar -- "In addition to those found in the Crusade Army list (subject to the previous restrictions) a Blackshield detachment has access to additional units" (Retribution, pg. 220) vs. "In addition to those found in the Crusade Army list, the Iron Warriors Legion has access to additional units" (Age of Darkness Legions, pg. 19) -- the units named should therefore be treated similarly. Additionally, this particular phrasing means that you would be able to take Agents of the Warmaster (i.e., a Navigator) as well. So you should be able to take both Marauder Squads and Reaver Lords.

 

Unfortunately, while you would be able to use Reaver Lords in the list and the entry does say that it replaces the Praetor "normally available to the Space Marine Crusade army," it never says that it is interchangeable for one where other rules are concerned.  So you'd have to take a Centurion or your Consul to be the army's Warlord, from a strict RAW interpretation.

 

(Personally, though, I think that's BS and would let you run it as the army's warlord.)

 

So in summary, A: yes, B: no.

 

Thanks a heap mate, thats how I read into it as well. So you reckon you could run Marauders in the DC list also?

 

Talked to a TO down in vic in regards to Reaver/counts as praetor..he said rule of cool well overrides the grey-ish area so would happily allow it also. (I do enjoy from what I've seen so far in the 30k dudes are more for rule of cool as opposed to hardcore RAW to all else).

 

So thanks for chucking down some well reasoned Yes's :).

 

 

 

Since Army of Dark Complience only can take units taken from thr legiones Astartes and Militia List, and a Black Shield army has to take a Reaver Lord and Marauders as compulsory units which both aren't on neither of these lists I'd say ruleswise you cannot do that, sadly.

Just had a quick squiz mate and can't see anywhere about any of the selections being compulsory. It does mention Marauders being Troop and the swap out for the Reaver/Praetor. 

[Charlo]

So RAW you can most certainly do this, it's just a touch at odds with the narrative side of things with Armies of Dark compliance meant to be the opposite forces to Blackshields. However it's certainly justified from a fluff sense, so knock yourself out!

 

I was considering a similar idea.

[Brofist]

This is a good case of RAW vs your interpretation of RAI. Strictly RAW, you can run Blackshields with an AoDC, but you can't use any of the units or equipment from the Book 6 since it's not part of the AoDC, Cult and Militia, or LACAL.

 

Talked to a TO down in vic in regards to Reaver/counts as praetor..he said rule of cool well overrides the grey-ish area so would happily allow it also. (I do enjoy from what I've seen so far in the 30k dudes are more for rule of cool as opposed to hardcore RAW to all else).

Yeah man, this is 100% the right thing to do!

 

They're not compulsory units for a Blackshields list, though? They (effectively) replace Tacticals and (explicitly) replace Praetors, but they're not compulsory.

They have access to these additional units, but they still aren't part of the LACAL.

 

Furthermore, the exact requirements for the Army of Dark Compliance in Retribution are prescriptive rather than restrictive in that "[t]he Primary Detachment in an Army of Dark Compliance is chosen using units drawn from both the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army list and the Imperialis Militia and Cults army list." It does not emphatically say that these can be the only sources for units in the army, presumably

Like you say at the end, 'presumably', which means its an interpretation. This sort of thing has been argued a lot in this game, but in general when something isn't explicitly listed doesn't usually mean you can take it. In the case of Blackshields, they aren't in the LACAL or Militia and Cults army lists. If you add things to that it's your own interpretation.

 

I agree about agents, since if I remember right they have their own explicit rules about being included in an army.