Scouring Series - What Would You Like to See?

[b1soul]

Yeah...I respect your opinion and all that. Can't agree the birth of the Imperium wouldn't be a fascinating setting to delve into. We've had a bit here and a bit there, but I'd like more. I'm in the camp of those who'd love a Unification Wars series or setting, so to me...more (as long as it's executed) is more

[Kelborn]

Alrighty.

 

You're free to continue to talk about a potential Scouring series in here. :)

[Sete]

Would love a focus on the splitting of the legions and second founding chapters to be honest.

[calgar101]

The Iron cage needs covering definitely! Two good books should do it justice.

[Tarvek Val]

Would love a focus on the splitting of the legions and second founding chapters to be honest.

 

^^ This. Specifically, I would like to see the Primarchs and Legion officers react to the Codex Astartes and the decision to form Chapters.

[Marshal Rohr]

An Iron Cage novel from the Fist and Warriors perspective but each novel contradicts the other in massive ways. A throwback to the original articles. That would be the coolest damn series they could do.

[Moonreaper666]

An Iron Cage novel from the Fist and Warriors perspective but each novel contradicts the other in massive ways. A throwback to the original articles. That would be the coolest damn series they could do.

What sort of contradictions are you talking about?

 

The two things that should not change is that the Fists outnumbered the Warriors and that most of the casualties were from the Fists.

 

I want the Traitors to win using their brains and not numbers (Alpha Legion don't count because they are in a league on their own). The Iron Cage is one of the two times I know in which outnumbered Traitors defeat a larger Loyalist force. Talos First Claw vs Genesis Chapter is the other one

[DukeLeto69]

Personally I am not sure we need an actual series for The Scouring (as @DC said we already have a few books set during that era anyway- though they could be rebranded and re-released) but they could “timestamp” any books authors chose to write about set during the era...

 

Except GW messed with the calendar/chronology so doubt this will/can happen now.

 

Anyway for me I would certainly buy them but prefer loose connections rather than a tighter linked series.

[Sete]

 

An Iron Cage novel from the Fist and Warriors perspective but each novel contradicts the other in massive ways. A throwback to the original articles. That would be the coolest damn series they could do.

What sort of contradictions are you talking about?

 

The two things that should not change is that the Fists outnumbered the Warriors and that most of the casualties were from the Fists.

 

I want the Traitors to win using their brains and not numbers (Alpha Legion don't count because they are in a league on their own). The Iron Cage is one of the two times I know in which outnumbered Traitors defeat a larger Loyalist force. Talos First Claw vs Genesis Chapter is the other one

And the IW lacked the mettle to end the fists because it would mean their destruction aswell.

The lovely details.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

An Iron Cage novel from the Fist and Warriors perspective but each novel contradicts the other in massive ways. A throwback to the original articles. That would be the coolest damn series they could do.

What sort of contradictions are you talking about?

 

The two things that should not change is that the Fists outnumbered the Warriors and that most of the casualties were from the Fists.

 

I want the Traitors to win using their brains and not numbers (Alpha Legion don't count because they are in a league on their own). The Iron Cage is one of the two times I know in which outnumbered Traitors defeat a larger Loyalist force. Talos First Claw vs Genesis Chapter is the other one

And the IW lacked the mettle to end the fists because it would mean their destruction aswell.

The lovely details.

Should Perturabo and Dorn fight each other during the last days of the Iron Cage?

 

The Iron Warriors were outnumbered at least 3-1 (if not 5-1) in that battle. The IW used most of their irreplaceable equipment/ammo while the Fists could resupply after the battle. The Iron Cage was the last time the Warriors fought as a Legion for a long time

 

Every Traitor Legion needs a badass battle in which they defeated a Loyalist Legion with their own merit. Sadly the Iron Warriors are the onle ones who get victories against the Loyalists (IW defeated the Space Wolves during the Heresy and stole one of their Cruisers)

[Roomsky]

I could personally do without any more added primarch on primarch fights during the Scouring. The amount hey go toe to toe and both walk away from it is a major failing of the Heresy IMO, and I'd like it to be kept to a minimum now that we have some perspective. It'll also give the potential series a more "playing for keeps attitude" if the only time opposing primarchs meet, one of them (effectively) dies like at Eskrador or Thessala, if they choose to give that one an alternate perspective.

 

Dorn and Pert have never really been about hitting each other anyway. It's much more in keeping with Perturabo's character to have him smirking in the middle distance or something. The bit I always found most compelling about the Iron Cage is that when Dorn finally made it to Perturabo's "sanctum", he wasn't even there.

[b1soul]

"IW defeated the Space Wolves during the Heresy and stole one of their Cruisers"

 

What event is this?

[Marshal Rohr]

He’s referencing the Vannaheim space drop

[Manchu warlord]

All the interesting points have already been mentioned.  I guess, if comes down to being a novel series, or just books dedicated to events after the Siege and how the traitors gets chased away into Hell (the Eye); like the Space Marine Battle books, or Space Marine Conquest.  I would like the atmosphere and the environs of the traitors' perspective to miserable and full of despiar.  A feeling of absolute loss and defeat, of how they came so close to defeating the Emperor and claiming galactic domination for themselves, only to have it snacthed away from them, and losing everything.

[Marshal Loss]

Dorn and Pert have never really been about hitting each other anyway. It's much more in keeping with Perturabo's character to have him smirking in the middle distance or something.

 

While I'm not advocating for a Primarch fight at the Iron Cage, and I agree with you on the whole, I actually disagree in part with your assessment of Perturabo's character. I think it's much more in keeping with how Perturabo views himself, but not with how he actually is. Case in point: he removes all viewing ports from the bridge of the Iron Blood because battle is "all calculations and no emotion (etc)", yet when push comes to shove, he himself is to be found looking out at Phall through a landing bay. That was a poignant moment for me. I could very much see Perturabo organising a plan to leave Dorn dying alone in the mud yet being unable to resist descending to kill him with his own two hands - or at the very least deliver a gloating monologue. Again, not that I'm saying I want this to happen, I'd rather they not meet as you advocated, just food for thought as I think there is an argument to be made here.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

Honestly it's quite surprising that it's only in recent years that the fandom (and the FW/BL writers, in fairness) have woken up to the fact that legion recruitment simply must have continued during the heresy, even putting aside the stuff about the accelerated methods. Go back to some of the earlier heresy discussons online and it's very much a simplistic 'well, this legion lost X amount at Isstvaan, then another X during the war, so by 40k there is only a few thousand left'.

To be fair, the number of 2nd Founding chapters is a pretty big clue as to how many marines were left by the end of the Scouring. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that most of the loyalist legions are headed towards having a few thousand left.

 

Now that I think about it, the Scouring will have to be pretty intense for the legions to end up so small.

Isn't there a bit towards the end of The Beast Arises, (I forget the exact book) when Thane demands a new founding of chapters and gives a number of current chapters? (It was surprisingly low, and in no way fits neatly in to how the Grey Knights ended up 666)

[Frater Antodeniel]

On the Blood Angels side of the coin, there are three important moments :

 

- Sanguinius Funerals (I think that it would a big event on Terra, with processions and mourning of the surviving Primarchs, followed with the Funerals on Baal with the Blood Angels Legion alone)

 

- The sundering of the Blood Angels Legion, with Nassir Amit, The Flesh Tearer, telling his thoughts about the Codex Astartes directly to the remaining Primarchs. (Note that as far as it is known, Nassir Amit is the only Blood Angels legionnary that have made his point clear to Guilliman and the other Primarchs. Plus he is maybe one of the few Astartes to ever had the strenght of will to speak in such "honesty" on an "equal foot" to a Primarch, more notably, another Primarch than the one of his Legion. (Nassir is known to have been more of a Berserker than a Diplomat, so the word "honesty" may be to polite^^.)

 

- The Vengeful crusade of the Flesh Tearers (whose crusade of blood during the Scourging is said to have been one of the more violent), and the first instances of Black Rage and Red Thirst. (The Red Thirst already existed during the Horus Heresy, but it was a secret affliction, only known by very few Blood Angels, so only during the Scourging does the Red Thirst will be known to all the Blood Angels chapters/Astartes, as if it appeared alongside the Black Rage, from their point of view.)

[Marshal Rohr]

On the Blood Angels side of the coin, there are three important moments :

 

- Sanguinius Funerals (I think that it would a big event on Terra, with processions and mourning of the surviving Primarchs, followed with the Funerals on Baal with the Blood Angels Legion alone)

 

- The sundering of the Blood Angels Legion, with Nassir Amit, The Flesh Tearer, telling his thoughts about the Codex Astartes directly to the remaining Primarchs. (Note that as far as it is known, Nassir Amit is the only Blood Angels legionnary that have made his point clear to Guilliman and the other Primarchs. Plus he is maybe one of the few Astartes to ever had the strenght of will to speak in such "honesty" on an "equal foot" to a Primarch, more notably, another Primarch than the one of his Legion. (Nassir is known to have been more of a Berserker than a Diplomat, so the word "honesty" may be to polite^^.)

 

- The Vengeful crusade of the Flesh Tearers (whose crusade of blood during the Scourging is said to have been one of the more violent), and the first instances of Black Rage and Red Thirst. (The Red Thirst already existed during the Horus Heresy, but it was a secret affliction, only known by very few Blood Angels, so only during the Scourging does the Red Thirst will be known to all the Blood Angels chapters/Astartes, as if it appeared alongside the Black Rage, from their point of view.)

Where are you pulling these events from?

[DarkChaplain]

 

 

Honestly it's quite surprising that it's only in recent years that the fandom (and the FW/BL writers, in fairness) have woken up to the fact that legion recruitment simply must have continued during the heresy, even putting aside the stuff about the accelerated methods. Go back to some of the earlier heresy discussons online and it's very much a simplistic 'well, this legion lost X amount at Isstvaan, then another X during the war, so by 40k there is only a few thousand left'.

To be fair, the number of 2nd Founding chapters is a pretty big clue as to how many marines were left by the end of the Scouring. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that most of the loyalist legions are headed towards having a few thousand left.

 

Now that I think about it, the Scouring will have to be pretty intense for the legions to end up so small.

Isn't there a bit towards the end of The Beast Arises, (I forget the exact book) when Thane demands a new founding of chapters and gives a number of current chapters? (It was surprisingly low, and in no way fits neatly in to how the Grey Knights ended up 666)

 

 

I can't quite recall, but were the Grey Knights actually ever called 666 in The Beast Arises? Up to a certain point in the series, they're basically a secret Chapter among the Inquisition, but not yet affiliated with the Ordo Malleus (which, in turn, does not formally exist yet). It would not be a stretch if the 666 number doesn't get assigned until that new Founding is underway - it'd also serve as a good opportunity to let it slip through the bureaucratic cracks while legitimizing it for use of the Ordos.

 

 

 

 

On the Blood Angels side of the coin, there are three important moments :

 

- Sanguinius Funerals (I think that it would a big event on Terra, with processions and mourning of the surviving Primarchs, followed with the Funerals on Baal with the Blood Angels Legion alone)

 

- The sundering of the Blood Angels Legion, with Nassir Amit, The Flesh Tearer, telling his thoughts about the Codex Astartes directly to the remaining Primarchs. (Note that as far as it is known, Nassir Amit is the only Blood Angels legionnary that have made his point clear to Guilliman and the other Primarchs. Plus he is maybe one of the few Astartes to ever had the strenght of will to speak in such "honesty" on an "equal foot" to a Primarch, more notably, another Primarch than the one of his Legion. (Nassir is known to have been more of a Berserker than a Diplomat, so the word "honesty" may be to polite^^.)

 

- The Vengeful crusade of the Flesh Tearers (whose crusade of blood during the Scourging is said to have been one of the more violent), and the first instances of Black Rage and Red Thirst. (The Red Thirst already existed during the Horus Heresy, but it was a secret affliction, only known by very few Blood Angels, so only during the Scourging does the Red Thirst will be known to all the Blood Angels chapters/Astartes, as if it appeared alongside the Black Rage, from their point of view.)

Where are you pulling these events from?

 

 

Should be covered in Andy Smillie's Flesh Tearers Omnibus. Flesh of Cretacia laid a lot of groundwork, but Sons of Wrath added more. There's also an additional story in the Sons of Wrath limited edition, which I am not sure has been published outside of said limited edition. That one features Guilliman directly. In fact, it is quite possible that this meeting between Amit and Roboute played a role in Guilliman authorizing Cawl's experiments to try and fix the genetic flaws of the Blood Angels, as Amit tells him - while at the same time giving Guilliman some verbal slaps of his own.

[Kelborn]

Number 666 could've been reserved for the Grey Knights from the very beginning. Maybe by Malchador himself or the First Inquisitors.

 

And those Flesh Tester bits sound intriguing. Maybe I'll give those sons of the Angel a try - BAs were never of interest before for me. ;)

[DarkChaplain]

If I were to collect Blood Angels (outside of the Space Hulk dudes), it'd be Flesh Tearers for sure. Andy Smillie really sold them well. Though Flesh of Cretacia having basically dinosaurs helped! If you can find the SMB paperback, give it a try. And yep, it does cover a bunch of Scouring-era stuff for the Chapter.

[Felix Antipodes]

On the Blood Angels side of the coin, there are three important moments :

 

- Sanguinius Funerals (I think that it would a big event on Terra, with processions and mourning of the surviving Primarchs, followed with the Funerals on Baal with the Blood Angels Legion alone)

 

- The sundering of the Blood Angels Legion, with Nassir Amit, The Flesh Tearer, telling his thoughts about the Codex Astartes directly to the remaining Primarchs. (Note that as far as it is known, Nassir Amit is the only Blood Angels legionnary that have made his point clear to Guilliman and the other Primarchs. Plus he is maybe one of the few Astartes to ever had the strenght of will to speak in such "honesty" on an "equal foot" to a Primarch, more notably, another Primarch than the one of his Legion. (Nassir is known to have been more of a Berserker than a Diplomat, so the word "honesty" may be to polite^^.)

 

- The Vengeful crusade of the Flesh Tearers (whose crusade of blood during the Scourging is said to have been one of the more violent), and the first instances of Black Rage and Red Thirst. (The Red Thirst already existed during the Horus Heresy, but it was a secret affliction, only known by very few Blood Angels, so only during the Scourging does the Red Thirst will be known to all the Blood Angels chapters/Astartes, as if it appeared alongside the Black Rage, from their point of view.)

Which raises the question of where Sanguinius is actually buried, as I don't recall it ever been given. Noting that he is the only Primarch (besides Guilliman) whose body was recovered by the Imperium, and his place as a major figure within the imperial creed, I would imagine it would be a site of significance on the pilgrimage trails of the faithful.

[carlisimo]

I thought his body was in stasis on Baal, which would mean it was saved from consumption by M42 Guilliman when the cavalry rode in through an impassable Shadow in the Warp and an impassable, galaxy-spanning warp rift to interrupt a heroic last stand that had no hope of reinforcement.

 

It’d be nice to see the Dark Angels’ story reach its crescendo, too. That’s a good reason to set a book or two in the Scouring.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'd like to see what happened to the Black Templar Librarians.

[MegaVolt87]

I'd like to see what happened to the Black Templar Librarians.

 

I can answer that one, where the rest of the Imperial Fists legion went- into the ground during the Iron Cage.