Redemptors are the new Razorback

[Cruor Vault]

In my preparations for LVO this year I've been analyzing changes to Ultramarines specifically and Marines in general with CA2018.  I've come to the conclusion that with the points drop from CA2018, I would never take a Razorback over a Redemptor Dreadnought unless I needed a place to hide a mini-marines unit/character.

 

A Twin Assault Cannon Razorback runs 114pts.

An Onslaught Redemptor is 155pts.

Off the bat, the Redemptor is 36% costlier than a Razorback, its primary weapons are S5 VS S6,  it's 4" slower and lacks transport capacity.

 

However...

 

The Redemptor has 50% more shots (18 vs 12) 12 of which have 6" greater range than the Razorback, it also has a pair of Storm Bolters.  The Redemptor also has +3W, and the Holy Grail of bonuses....  Chapter Tactics!

 

Comparing the two against vehicles at range yields the following results:

 

AssBack (stationary) VS T7 3+ = 1.33D

Redemptor (stationary) VS T7 3+ = 2.29D

 

Ok...  both are...  not good at tackling vehicles, but what about infantry?

 

AssBack (stationary) VS T3 5+ = 5.55D

Redemptor (stationary) VS T3 5+ = 7.85D

 

Now we're getting somewhere!  The Redemptor is killing around 40% more Guardsmen a turn, slightly exceeding it's 36% increased cost.

 

What about against Orks with the dread KFF?

 

AssBack (stationary) VS T4 5++ = 3.55D

Redemptor (stationary) VS T4 5++ = 6.21D

 

Ok, wow!  The Redemptor is close to 2x more efficient at killing those pesky Greenskins!

 

What about in melee?

 

Razorback VS anything....  It's a tank, it sucks in melee and will NEVER do anything beyond tying up a unit or blocking overwatch (admittedly quite useful).

The Redemptor has 4 S14 -3 D6 damage melee attacks, it's also able to fallback and fire.

[Karack Blackstone]

In my preparations for LVO this year I've been analyzing changes to Ultramarines specifically and Marines in general with CA2018.  I've come to the conclusion that with the points drop from CA2018, I would never take a Razorback over a Redemptor Dreadnought unless I needed a place to hide a mini-marines unit/character.

 

A Twin Assault Cannon Razorback runs 114pts.

An Onslaught Redemptor is 155pts.

Off the bat, the Redemptor is 36% costlier than a Razorback, its primary weapons are S5 VS S6,  it's 4" slower and lacks transport capacity.

 

However...

 

The Redemptor has 50% more shots (18 vs 12) 12 of which have 6" greater range than the Razorback, it also has a pair of Storm Bolters.  The Redemptor also has +3W, and the Holy Grail of bonuses....  Chapter Tactics!

 

Comparing the two against vehicles at range yields the following results:

 

AssBack (stationary) VS T7 3+ = 1.33D

Redemptor (stationary) VS T7 3+ = 2.29D

 

Ok...  both are...  not good at tackling vehicles, but what about infantry?

 

AssBack (stationary) VS T3 5+ = 5.55D

Redemptor (stationary) VS T3 5+ = 7.85D

 

Now we're getting somewhere!  The Redemptor is killing around 40% more Guardsmen a turn, slightly exceeding it's 36% increased cost.

 

What about against Orks with the dread KFF?

 

AssBack (stationary) VS T4 5++ = 3.55D

Redemptor (stationary) VS T4 5++ = 6.21D

 

Ok, wow!  The Redemptor is close to 2x more efficient at killing those pesky Greenskins!

 

What about in melee?

 

Razorback VS anything....  It's a tank, it sucks in melee and will NEVER do anything beyond tying up a unit or blocking overwatch (admittedly quite useful).

The Redemptor has 4 S14 -3 D6 damage melee attacks, it's also able to fallback and fire.

 

*Poke.*

 

Armament, please.

 

The two Gatling Cannons, but, what tertiary weapon, please?

[Cruor Vault]

Armament, please.

 

The two Gatling Cannons, but, what tertiary weapon, please?

 

I don't think it matters what tertiary weapons you go with on a Redemptor.  The difference between Storm Bolters or Fragstorm Launchers isn't huge, either in points or damage output. I prefer the Storm Bolter for the reliability and reduced cost (I used Storm Bolters at 24" for my calculations above).

 

I wouldn't take the Icarus pod, for 6pts I would much rather have a HK Missile

[Karack Blackstone]

 

Armament, please.

 

The two Gatling Cannons, but, what tertiary weapon, please?

 

I don't think it matters what tertiary weapons you go with on a Redemptor.  The difference between Storm Bolters or Fragstorm Launchers isn't huge, either in points or damage output. I prefer the Storm Bolter for the reliability and reduced cost (I used Storm Bolters at 24" for my calculations above).

 

I wouldn't take the Icarus pod, for 6pts I would much rather have a HK Missile

 

 

K.

 

Mobile pill box I can get behind.

 

The fun part is just having the Redemptor point and say, "DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!" at just about anything, let alone Orks.

 

Now that's funny!

[Lemondish]

 

*Poke.*

 

Armament, please.

 

The two Gatling Cannons, but, what tertiary weapon, please?

 

 

Looks to be storm bolters based on the post and the point cost - 155 is a Redemptor with both gatling and a pair of storm bolters. 

 

What's also kind of interesting is the fact the heavy plasma is statistically identical to twin las against anything with an invuln, and better against anything without and a 3+ save. Minus the whole mortal wound threat, of course. 

 

For 1 point more than the 155 above.

[Cruor Vault]

 

What's also kind of interesting is the fact the heavy plasma is statistically identical to twin las against anything with an invuln, and better against anything without and a 3+ save. Minus the whole mortal wound threat, of course. 

 

For 1 point more than the 155 above.

 

 

That's really interesting!  I'd never looked at the math on that before.  There are better platforms to mount twin-las equivalents on, but If you're in a pinch it's a nice option to have!

[N1SB]

Thank you for the due diligence mathhammer and raising awareness of this issue.  With the Orks Codex out and the Genestealer Codex on the way, hordes should be making a comeback and this will be highly relevant.  Very interesting stuff, this.

[Lemondish]

 

 

What's also kind of interesting is the fact the heavy plasma is statistically identical to twin las against anything with an invuln, and better against anything without and a 3+ save. Minus the whole mortal wound threat, of course. 

 

For 1 point more than the 155 above.

 

 

That's really interesting!  I'd never looked at the math on that before.  There are better platforms to mount twin-las equivalents on, but If you're in a pinch it's a nice option to have!

 

 

It's basically a flip of the twin las - d6 shots instead of 2, 2 damage each shot instead of d6. It also gives you some decent anti-infantry if you fire it without overcharging. 

 

If the Redemptor ever gets to move without a firing penalty, it'll be an absolute beast with either weapon. 

[Captain Idaho]

I might have to relook at the Redemptor since Dreadnoughts are cool and giant Dreadnoughts are obviously going to be giantly cool.

 

The Onslaught Cannon focus for 155pts is pretty nice as it gets additional counter attack capacity into the army. If Dreads ignored moving and shooting, or at least the Redemptor, it would be an easy choice.

 

I'd always add the Icarus Rocket Pod for its dirt cheap price. Seriously that's very good value.

 

So 161pts for the Onslaught-Onslaught-Storm Bolter-Icarus Redemptor. Not terrible especially if you think the opponent will come to you so you don't have to move.

 

***

 

Let's not pretend the Macro Plasma Incinerator is outperforming Lascannons readily in lists but it is certainly a decent weapon for its versatility. However, getting past the sheer number of shots of the Heavy Onslaught Cannon is going to be tough going. Especially if you have to move the thing.

[Ishagu]

Time to put my Redemptors back on the tabletop!!

 

Imo these guys are the best looking marine Dreads as they look somewhat mobile!

[Captain Idaho]

They look as good as Classic Dreads but they ain't no Leviathan! Those look amazing.

[Lemondish]

I might have to relook at the Redemptor since Dreadnoughts are cool and giant Dreadnoughts are obviously going to be giantly cool.

 

The Onslaught Cannon focus for 155pts is pretty nice as it gets additional counter attack capacity into the army. If Dreads ignored moving and shooting, or at least the Redemptor, it would be an easy choice.

 

I'd always add the Icarus Rocket Pod for its dirt cheap price. Seriously that's very good value.

 

So 161pts for the Onslaught-Onslaught-Storm Bolter-Icarus Redemptor. Not terrible especially if you think the opponent will come to you so you don't have to move.

 

***

 

Let's not pretend the Macro Plasma Incinerator is outperforming Lascannons readily in lists but it is certainly a decent weapon for its versatility. However, getting past the sheer number of shots of the Heavy Onslaught Cannon is going to be tough going. Especially if you have to move the thing.

I'm not pretending anything - it's mathematically identical to twin Las on most targets, and better against 2+/3+ save targets that don't carry invulns. Let's not pretend that math isn't real, how about that ;)

 

It trades 9 points for slightly less range. The truly only downside is the mortal wound on 1s - how easy that is to mitigate depends on your list, of course. But if it moves, it's hitting at the same clip as any mobile Las platform shy of land raiders, Repulsors, and xiphons.

 

And unlike the twin Las, it carries a profile that can contribute much more readily in an anti-infantry role as well in a pinch.

 

The onslaught is better for the unit's most common purpose - moving forward and smashing something - just trying to point out that a backfield/midfield anti-tank and counter charge threat like that (with some anti infantry capability) isn't terrible for the points cost. What used to be a no brainer is a bit more flexible in build thanks to the points drops.

[Captain Idaho]

So how can it be mathematically determined how good it is compared to twin Lascannons when it fire D6 shots? The dice don't care about what you rolled previously - you either fire 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 shots. Never 3.5.

 

It's a hugely swing based weapon system. That is unreliable and telling people it does the same damage output as twin Lascannons is incorrect.

 

If the range isn't a downside (it is, since being out of range is detrimental to the performance of the weapon...) then what about the unreliable nature of the shots it fires?

[Ishagu]

I think the Plasma is too swingy. It CAN be effective, but it will also let you down in clutch moments.

[Metzombie]

So how can it be mathematically determined how good it is compared to twin Lascannons when it fire D6 shots? The dice don't care about what you rolled previously - you either fire 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 shots. Never 3.5.

 

 But Lascannon is has the same problem with the d6 damage it does. And one mayor advantage for Macro Plasma Incinerator is that it can kill up to 6 modells per shooting. A twin Lascannon cann never kill more than 2.

[Captain Idaho]

That's exactly my position. It's like Flamers.

 

Lots (and lots) of bullets is the way forward.

 

There's always other units to kill tanks.

[Lemondish]

So how can it be mathematically determined how good it is compared to twin Lascannons when it fire D6 shots? The dice don't care about what you rolled previously - you either fire 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 shots. Never 3.5.

 

It's a hugely swing based weapon system. That is unreliable and telling people it does the same damage output as twin Lascannons is incorrect.

 

If the range isn't a downside (it is, since being out of range is detrimental to the performance of the weapon...) then what about the unreliable nature of the shots it fires?

Idaho, I appreciate your posts, but this one is pretty ignorant. The exact same can be said about the damage of the twin Las. As you put it 'you either cause 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 damage. Never 3.5.'

 

Which is a silly thing to say because the statistical analysis works on averages here. The reality is that the D6 in shots is exactly as swingy as the Las D6 in damage. Across the exact same scenarios, you can fire 10000 of each weapon and they will do the same damage. Record the performance of your lascannons across enough games and its contribution will hit that number under identical circumstances - without fail. I counter and ask "what about the unreliable nature of the D6 damage roll"?

 

In the abstract, we're applying statistical analysis to judge army composition decisions. Because you are rolling comparatively few dice in a match (compared to thousands), these values generate an expectation of what “should” happen, but no guarantees. The Redemptor will never kill 7.85 guardsmen, for example, but you've accepted the result in the OP without questioning the methods there - why attack me for using the same methods but arriving at a conclusion you don't like? That's unfair.

 

You'll find that efficient units deemed so by the community over multiple games also show this in their statistical analyses. Just as was posted in the first post.

 

To accuse me of being untruthful about the expected performance of this weapon without disproving it mathematically is intellectually dishonest. If I've made a mistake in my calculations, point that out. But you can't simply change the goalposts here and attack the math in a thread that began with a statistical comparison of the killing power of two units using the exact same method I've used here.

 

I think the Plasma is too swingy. It CAN be effective, but it will also let you down in clutch moments.

You'll find that the lascannon receives no different benefit to its D6 damage roll. It can be identically as troublesome.

[Captain Idaho]

You very well could be right as I'm certainly no mathematician!

 

I'm not attacking you, rather engaging in theoretical debate and discourse. I'm very open to my mind being changed.

 

You'll notice I opened with a question. I meant that question!

 

I see it as an unreliable weapon system because I always fire 1 blooming shot when I need 5! But as I'm not a mathematically included fella, I COULD be wrong about whether the stats are the same because of the swing element in the damage compared to shots.

 

I'll take your word for it since I just don't know and am indeed ignorant on any but the most rudimentary maths.

 

(Though range is definitely an issue as is giving yourself mortal wounds)

 

***

 

(By the way, that is an excellent post to respond to what you saw as an attack. It wasn't an attack and text is often a pure conduit)

[Lemondish]

You very well could be right as I'm certainly no mathematician!

 

I'm not attacking you, rather engaging in theoretical debate and discourse. I'm very open to my mind being changed.

 

You'll notice I opened with a question. I meant that question!

 

I see it as an unreliable weapon system because I always fire 1 blooming shot when I need 5! But as I'm not a mathematically included fella, I COULD be wrong about whether the stats are the same because of the swing element in the damage compared to shots.

 

I'll take your word for it since I just don't know and am indeed ignorant on any but the most rudimentary maths.

 

(Though range is definitely an issue as is giving yourself mortal wounds)

 

***

 

(By the way, that is an excellent post to respond to what you saw as an attack. It wasn't an attack and text is often a pure conduit)

Apologies, I meant the attack on the argument (which is how things should always be), not an attack on the messenger (which I did not think you were making) - text is poor but I was also using it poorly.

 

I feel it would be unfair if I didn't point out that feelings about a certain model and its role on the field are legitimate points. You're absolutely right that you might find more efficient anti-tank in your list elsewhere, which urges you to decide against the macro plasma. But it's still just as good from a purely damage perspective. That's a legitimate point - but that's the best part about this particular unit - you can maximize it based on what you feel you need.

 

It's also a legitimate point about deciding against the unit because you'd prefer the swing in damage happen later in the shooting sequence rather than at the start - it can be deflating to roll your shots and see you're only throwing 1 out. Perhaps you'd prefer the chance at getting everything through and then risking the damage roll fluffing instead. They're still statistically identical, but how you feel about it on the table isn't totally irrelevant - if you enjoy a unit more, for whatever reason, that's important. It means you'll have more fun, even when it whiffs.

 

But all I'm saying is that the plasma is pretty comparable to a twin Las - identical damage output against most tough targets, an extra AP that produces more damage than Las against some other targets, is cheaper, and brings an anti-light infantry capability with the non overcharged profile that the Las doesn't. But...it has a shorter range and risks a mortal wound per shot.

 

I think it's important to consider that when talking about the Redemptor.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

When I first was getting into eighth edition with my smurfs I ran a Redemptor and tried both the macro plasma and HOGC... what I found is that the latter tended to do significantly more wounds - especially versus armor. S5 is that magical number that means you are wounding 5+ rather than 6s and that can be huge. Also the macro plasma means that the Redemptor sticks out like a sore thumb whereas with the HOGC your opponent may not be as likely to shoot it in the initial turns.

[Captain Idaho]

I imagine Guilliman supporting a Redemptor would be quite a sight... imagine all those rerolls.

 

Model wise yes I like Onslaught Cannons as everyone knows big rotary cannons are great.

 

Hmm. Just imagine a pair of these bad boys alongside a Leviathan. Showing Calgar how Ancients do the commander and Honour Guard ;)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Heck yeah Captain !!! :)

[Lemondish]

I imagine Guilliman supporting a Redemptor would be quite a sight... imagine all those rerolls.

 

Model wise yes I like Onslaught Cannons as everyone knows big rotary cannons are great.

 

Hmm. Just imagine a pair of these bad boys alongside a Leviathan. Showing Calgar how Ancients do the commander and Honour Guard

 

That's a lot of pain. 

 

I'm in the process of just shamelessly building a similar list to the one neonmole ran over on his blog with multiple Repulsors and Redemptors - mostly because I despise the Leviathan and it's overblown price tag and stupid sexy statline and weapon options...

[Captain Idaho]

I can't see myself running 1 Redemptor with my Marines. 2 seems like a glorious number and fairly cheap.

[Brother Captain Ed]

I can't see myself running 1 Redemptor with my Marines. 2 seems like a glorious number and fairly cheap.

Truly. I find that the marine codex is so bad that your opponent can tell at a glance what his target priority needs to be. Taking 2 is 1 and taking 1 is none.