Mandragola’s Legio Astorum (and Mortis and stuff)

[Gillyfish]

Thanks for the AARs and the further thoughts Mandragola. Third place is pretty amazing. I really do need to finish painting my models and get some games in! :D

[Raziel-TX]

Good stuff buddy. You do a lot of the heavy lifting within this forum to keep it alive and motivate a lot of us. Keep it up!

[Sherrypie]

Nice to see the Armigers contributing, as there was some initial hesitation among players if they'd be of any use being so squishy.

Not sure if I'd entirely agree with the take on the Dire Wolf being mostly a dice-reliant asset in the manoeuver game, as its potential for dropping shields on juicy targets on its own dictates how freely the opposing side can move. Plopping one down in a spot is a statement that the enemy needs to wrestle with.

[Mandragola]

On 7/21/2022 at 8:49 PM, Sherrypie said:

Nice to see the Armigers contributing, as there was some initial hesitation among players if they'd be of any use being so squishy.

Not sure if I'd entirely agree with the take on the Dire Wolf being mostly a dice-reliant asset in the manoeuver game, as its potential for dropping shields on juicy targets on its own dictates how freely the opposing side can move. Plopping one down in a spot is a statement that the enemy needs to wrestle with.

Armigers seem great to me. 85 points and 1SP gets you a problem behind the enemy's army that they have to deal with. The fact that they're tiny models on 25mm bases means they can hide in places nothing else could. Many of the open war missions and secondaries particularly benefit from this sort of thing, while the rest of the time you're "only" putting a threat behind the enemy and forcing them to send something to deal with it.

My issue with the dire wolf is that I don't decide what it does - dice do. It's true that you're causing your opponent a problem with it but, if they decide to just ignore the thing, the actual threat is relatively small. You're sacrificing a pretty large number of points for a unit that will never do significant damage and only occasionally cause disruption. Now and then of course you'll have a spectacular success, but that can happen with any titan. Sometimes it'll shut a Warlord down but the cheaper Warhound I could take instead will sometimes kill a Warlord.

An infiltrating melee Dire Wolf is a weird exception to this. You can build a Vulpa one to all-but automatically kill any enemy titan in turn 1, by piling on aggressive mutations (based around auto-passing charge orders) along with disruption emitters. There's really only one defence against this: vox blackout to prevent  that charge. If you see one of these things in a list you should take this strat in every case, especially since playing it T1 will stop the rest of the Vulpa engines from full striding across the board at you.

I didn't take VB so I was only able to prevent the one I met from rampaging through my army (after it killed a Warlord) by dropping a concealment barrage on it and positioning warhounds so it couldn't move out for a turn, while I shot up some incoming Reavers and knights. Once I got some shots at it the thing died fairly fast, though not before killing one of my warhounds as well. That thing never even fired its weapons.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Maybe the neutron version isn't for you? 

Either that, or you need to build into it more? I need to get mine finished, then I look forward to experimenting to get the most out of them. The melee angle is very interesting to me, even as a non-vulpa player, they can do long charges fairly reliably with something like Great Crusade titans, and will be able to get into charge range, with a likely flank or rear bonus, maybe even the Ferrox +1 and they can do decent damage on a charge, then have a Vulcan and a top gun to finish something off in the combat phase.

[Mandragola]

You can make a case for a melee Dire Wolf, especially for a Legio like Vulpa or Gryphonicus. It's obviously not at all what was intended for them but it's there. It does work a lot better for traitors because the thing gets far more dangerous with mutations, while warp displacement is very useful for getting a charge off. You do have to deploy the thing in cover, which will almost always result in awkward charges (during which you're not allowed to turn). For Loyalists I think you'd generally be better off just taking another Reaver.

It may indeed be that I'd get on better with a volcano cannon dire wolf. The issue there is that a PBG is simply better than a volcano cannon, and a VMB is also better than the defensor bolters. So the only thing the dire wolf is bringing at that point is the ability to infiltrate - though to be fair that is certainly significant. It's not so great when you're running a Regia maniple and want to keep your hounds near your warlords.

Dire Wolves aren't bad. They're not a great fit for the way I like to play, which is a different thing. I'll still use mine sometimes I think.

[Sherrypie]

6 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

Dire Wolves aren't bad. They're not a great fit for the way I like to play, which is a different thing. I'll still use mine sometimes I think.

Which is arguably a great state for a specialized engine to exist in. Can do funky stuff in correct setup, not desirable enough to be shoe-horned into every list, biases the strategic approach from the get go. I like it when such units need more thought to work well and if you're going for a general purpose aggressor, the regular Warhound does that job better.

[Mandragola]

50 minutes ago, Sherrypie said:

Which is arguably a great state for a specialized engine to exist in. Can do funky stuff in correct setup, not desirable enough to be shoe-horned into every list, biases the strategic approach from the get go. I like it when such units need more thought to work well and if you're going for a general purpose aggressor, the regular Warhound does that job better.

I agree with this, mostly. But my issue is that actually I don't think the dire wolf needs more thought to work well. It requires a certain amount of thought, like everything in AT, but then a very large proportion of its effectiveness comes down to luck. There's simply no escaping the fact that it's a unit that will have a large effect some of the time, rather than a predictable effect lots of the time. That isn't what I look for, at least for my Astorum.

If I was playing a more (small c) chaotic force, involving more risk-taking and trying to capitalise on unlikely outcomes, a neutron laser might find a place in my battlegroup. There'd potentially be a home for a dire wolf in my Mortis army, for example. That's a more aggressive army that's more interested in getting into people's faces, and where I more often run a Ferrox. But even then, taking another aggressive option like a hound or some knights still feels like the option I'd be more likely to go with.

[Mandragola]

I have to confess that I haven’t really been feeling in the mood to build titans. Now I have a new project, at a bigger than usual scale. 
 

This engine has been languishing unassembled on a shelf in a club-mate’s home for quite some time. Now it has come into the possession of the Legio Astorum. 

This is going to take me a while. I’m not in any rush. I plan to do the interior, with some magnetised panels. I’m also going to attempt a walking pose, though I think it’ll have both feet on the ground - probably.

I’m not sure if or how I’ll base the thing. A big round one would look best but wouldn’t be very practical for gaming. Some people put a separate base under each foot, which is one option. I’ll give it some thought and would gladly hear ideas.

It happens to have a plasma blastgun and Vulcan mega bolter.  I might also get it a turbo laser and try to magnetise the guns. 

[Mandragola]

Made some progress on the build today. Some of this is actually dry-fitted together for now but it does basically fit, which is nice. I’ve cleaned off a lot of sprue gates this evening and a few bits have actually now been glued together. It’s a start. 
 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Super cool Brother!

Interesting to see they are nearly over 7000 sold now and come in lovely boxes. Mine is somewhere in the 1000s from the dark ages and came in the old plastic bags, with a cert too 

As to your basing thoughts, unless you're going to pose the bejeezus out of the legs it will stand without a base no problem.

When (super occasionally) I play mine I just use both unbased feet as the 'hulls' like any other vehicle, except there are two to choose from (both players use this for fairness).

No one has had an issue with that mechanism, a cool base is cool for a display piece but on the TT the unbased feet are big enough and can be placed better around terrain. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Interrogator Stobz

[Interrogator Stobz]

Sorry, just a thing if you didn't know; you never have to glue on the carapace nor the head top plate. They hold on fine and lift off to show off your soon to be beautiful interiors. That was probably sucking eggs, but I'm amped to see your work.

[Gillyfish]

Me too! I always fancied having a 28mm scale titan but could never really justify firt the cost or then the space! 

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this progresses.

[schoon]

Awesome new project!

Can't wait to see more progress on it.

I've always wanted to to have one as a mantle piece, but yeah, they're $$$

[Mandragola]

Thanks for the kind comments. I was most fortunate to get this engine for a bit below RRP. My club-mate had a couple already and didn’t think he’d ever build it, so he was happy to free up shelf space. It was  not exactly cheap though!

I have some progress to report. The hull and head have been assembled, boiled and bent to fit together, and primed. I’ve started splashing bulb oil around the interior and liquid gold around the trim, intending to paint the colours into the panels afterwards. We’ll see how neat I can be. 

it does actually fit together, so far. 

meanwhile I’ve cleaned up the legs and the foot pieces, mostly. I’m now at the point where I can dry fit stuff to start playing around with poses, like this foot for example. 

this involves essentially jacking the centre of the foot up on a couple of bases so that the titan doesn’t look flat-footed. I’ll pin the hell out of everything, including a big pin right through the sole of the foot, connecting the leg to the base. I’ve got some 3mm brass rod in the post for this job. 

I am now considering a pose with one foot off the ground. It may be a silly idea but I’ve seen it done with a warlord do a hound should work. 

I’ve bought some fairly powerful magnets to hold the guns on. I did this little test to check they were strong enough and it seems they are. I’ll probably also have smaller magnets at one or both ends of the weapon cables. 

 

Currently all the remaining bits are having their bath in detergent to wash off mould release. I’m looking forward to getting the interior painted to the point that I can glue the hull together, which is when I’ll sort the legs and posing. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Nice work!

Don't mean to give you more work, but those magnets probably aren't big enough. They will hold the guns in place but the tips will likely sag down a tonne and aim at the ground, especially on the longer weapons.

I use 12mm D x 12mm H and they only just work.

On the bright side, if you use quality super glue you don't need to pin the feet and legs at all, just don't paint them at all first. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Interrogator Stobz

[Mandragola]

I must admit I thought the magnets weee bigger than this. I did a simple test though and they do seem strong enough to hold a weapon up. I might try putting a couple of them in series to see if that helps. 

I’ll definitely be pinning the foot that’s on the ground. It’ll have quite a lot of the weight going through the toes so it’s best if it’s all very solid. I might not bother with the raised leg as that’s not weight-bearing. It might still be worth it for things like the hip joint of that leg, so the whole thing doesn’t fall off. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Someone locally bought a recast version of the Tyranid Bio-Titan(Heirophant?) The one with the really spindly legs.

He thought the legs seemed a bit stronger than he would have anticipated, so, being a doctor, decided to X-ray them!

Those clever chaps in China had cast the legs around lengths of steel, meaning the core is solid.

[Noserenda]

Ooh thats a good idea, the bio titan legs aaaaalways died because they were too think unless you popped a flying stand or something under the main body!  

[Mandragola]

I got to spend a few happy hours tonight working on the legs, which are now well on their way to being built. I’m going to be using an epoxy glue on the standing leg so that’s mostly not stuck yet. Annoyingly I ran out of 3mm brass rod so I’ve had to order some more, meaning I won’t be able to actually glue that leg till Wednesday. 

mom pleased with the progress though. For one thing I can now sort of demonstrate the pose that the finished warhound will have. I’m going for “T-Rex chasing car”. 
 

This is the legs from the side  not glued yet so I’ve still got plenty of freedom to modify this a bit  

Some of the joints will be pretty much at the extremes of what the pistons can do. I’ve glued the left ankle joint and stuck a pin right through the sole of the foot and into the ball joint, to maximise the strength of that join. I’ve also stuck on those five ankle pistons so I know they work. 

Meanwhile the raised leg is somewhat simpler. The parts actually fit together really snugly so I’m just gluing them. I remembered to put in the pistons you have to do when attaching the leg parts. I’ve even built the first toe!

[Interrogator Stobz]

Looks awesome!

Stacking your magnets might work, good luck 

[Mandragola]

Some progress to report on the Warhound. I’ve now stuck the legs together fully (apart from the hip pistons). This was a bit of an ordeal with a lot of drilling with my rubbish old non-dremel just about equal to the task. 

I’m doing a running pose and the completed legs look like this. 

Here’s what it’ll look like with the body attached (currently held together with rubber bands)

 

I wanted to use an epoxy glue for the standing leg but had a nightmare with it. The stuff just wouldn’t set and made the leg into a horrible sticky mess. I was able to clean it off with some very careful use of isopropyl - bring very quick with each bit to avoid damaging the resin. It turned out fine but was no fun at all and a big waste of time. I’ve now used normal superglue, which seems fine with the amount of brass rod in there. 

The last major structural elements are the guns. I’m trying to magnetise these. I had planned to drill holes for the magnets in the guns but actually there isn’t enough depth of resin. Instead I’ve glued them into the bottom of the socket, bedded them in with green stuff and superglue, and will have to cut the stubby little “arm” to the right length. I’ll also magnetise the hoses in place, though I’m not sure what end to fix. The plasma ones are unique so I might stick those to the gun but have the left arm hoses stuck to the body, ready to accept a VMB, laser or (maybe one day) flamer.

Actually there’s one other joint I’m going to have to figure out: the waist. Ideally this would be magnetised but in reality I think the body would topple forwards. And above the joint is the reactor room, with only a thin floor, which won’t be much use for pinning. I think I’ll have to fix the joint with glue and sink a pin down through the floor. That will leave a hole so my plan is to stand a tech priest over the hole. I’ve had a couple of old Dominus priests for ages and one of those, perhaps stripped of some of his fancier gear and guns, would cover it nicely. 

[Tar Aldarion]

This is coming along really great, Mandragola! Really enticing to see the thing coming together. You're tempting me...

I think the running pose should be quite impressive in 40k scale. I mean, all of us have probably tried to pull off the most dynamic poses on our 8mm Titans, but it's another impression on a much, much larger model and with way smaller infantry slogging around its feet.

In that sense: please go ahead, keep us updated now and then, and supply us with some nasty group shots on the end.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Tar Aldarion

[Interrogator Stobz]

What a great and dynamic pose! Man that's gonna look cool. For something that awesome I see why you're pinning it!

The guns sure are tricky, I added the arms to each gun and magnetised at the top, but that created a problem there and I ended up raising the icon plates 2mm to fit more metal up there. Your thoughts of doing halves with the stubby arms may well be the answer.

The hoses are also super tricky dependingon how many options you're goint to have, because each gun has the joins in slightly different places I ended up using fancy 5mm rope and magnetised the ends of that. It also allows the guns to swing a bit.

The waist is magnetise-able if you're cheeky. Put heaps in the hips, a bit under the body, then stack a bunch in a piece of cloth (so it can be removed ) and keep it inside the body when the top armour is on. Just pull it out for viewings. 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Interrogator Stobz

[Mandragola]

Thanks. I’m on holiday for a bit over a week now so won’t be able to do any hobby. Working on this thing when I get back will be fun. 

I like the idea of sticking magnets to the floor. Very clever! I’ll have to give it real thought because the thing would be so much easier to transport if it could separate.