Boltgun beta rule

[Panzer]

Yeah as I said they are slightly better. Keep in mind that at 15" they suddenly have 20 shots (or 30 with a Fireblade nearby) while the 5 Intercessors are stuck with their 10 shots.

[Ishagu]

All very true. But on the positive side 5 Intercessors also have 11 attacks in close combat at ws3 which is another way to thin out light troops.

 

I just think this change is most positive for them. Also DW Terminators got a nice boost too

[Lord Raven 19]

How about you make those Intercessors Raven Guard, suddenly those Tau are hitting on 5+

[Lemondish]

How about you make those Intercessors Raven Guard, suddenly those Tau are hitting on 5+

 

Or you're rocking Crimson Fists, then those marines are hitting on 2+. 

 

Lots of interesting benefits from this rule.

 

After playing a couple matches (only a couple so far), I've found it opens up some interesting tactical options. My initial fear was that it would encourage a static playstyle, but even with the static bonus it really isn't advisable to stand still for too long when a large part of the game's missions require mobility. Not to mention that part of the value of marines is that they can mix it up in melee. But it's really the missions that want you to be reactive and mobile.

 

Now, I can sit and breathe T1 to better tweak my gameplan rather than just trying to get into rapid fire range asap to get as many shots as I can from every body on the table to avoid losing to attrition. I don't feel like I have to rush forward as fast as possible to maximize the damage my marines can do before they start to take casualties. For marines, you need everybody contributing in some way - even scouts are there for more than just CP generation. My firebase is now more capable right from the start because now I can start to thin a screen from range, jump into transports on T2 and re-position where I'm needed just as my deep strike units drop by, screwing up the opponent's target priority. With proper mobile elements, I feel like the pressure is off to go go go right away. 

 

It may just be all in my mind, but I find this change to be almost...freeing. 

 

Still a little sad that it's leaving auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, and stalker bolt rifles in the dust in comparison to the now more capable bolt rifle. 

[Panzer]

Eh yeah it's not like T'au don't have fancy special rules either. It wasn't supposed to be an epeen contest. Just saying that Intercessors aren't suddenly rocking the world compared to Firewarriors. ^^

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah we have to maintain a little perspective here as tournaments won't be running in fear just yet but now when there are a couple Marines in a remnant squad about 20" away they can still contribute fairly handily.

 

***

 

Anyone else salivating over Centurions now?

[Dracos]

Yeah as I said they are slightly better. Keep in mind that at 15" they suddenly have 20 shots (or 30 with a Fireblade nearby) while the 5 Intercessors are stuck with their 10 shots.

Now if we can get a similar minor tweak for Astartes Saves (ATSKNF reroll. “1”s) then we start to see Marines performing as they should. ;)

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Yeah we have to maintain a little perspective here as tournaments won't be running in fear just yet but now when there are a couple Marines in a remnant squad about 20" away they can still contribute fairly handily.

 

***

 

Anyone else salivating over Centurions now?

 

I am very much interested in Centurions now, Idaho.

 

I did a little math breakdown on the Raven Guard forum, located here

[Firepower]

My LRC and Ironclads approve of this rule.  About time a Beta rule was actually good news. :teehee:

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah 3 Ironclads and 2 Crusaders in an army... wow.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Yeah we have to maintain a little perspective here as tournaments won't be running in fear just yet but now when there are a couple Marines in a remnant squad about 20" away they can still contribute fairly handily.

***

Anyone else salivating over Centurions now?

 

 

I am very much interested in Centurions now, Idaho.

 

I did a little math breakdown on the Raven Guard forum, located here

Very interesting link.

 

Obviously it's a guide and a good one at that.

 

I still prefer Centurions over Aggressors since range is a big factor here. Being able to hit the opponent outside rapid fire and charge range does much for survivability, as does 2+ armour saves and 3 wounds.

 

But then if you're closing the distance Aggressors are good stuff.

 

Though on that note, what about Assault Centurions?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

 

Yeah we have to maintain a little perspective here as tournaments won't be running in fear just yet but now when there are a couple Marines in a remnant squad about 20" away they can still contribute fairly handily.

***

Anyone else salivating over Centurions now?

 

I am very much interested in Centurions now, Idaho.

 

I did a little math breakdown on the Raven Guard forum, located here

Very interesting link.

 

Obviously it's a guide and a good one at that.

 

I still prefer Centurions over Aggressors since range is a big factor here. Being able to hit the opponent outside rapid fire and charge range does much for survivability, as does 2+ armour saves and 3 wounds.

 

But then if you're closing the distance Aggressors are good stuff.

 

Though on that note, what about Assault Centurions?

 

 

From the perspective of my Cost-Per-Shot analysis, they are straight worse. They are more points and less firepower.

 

That being said, the rule change is still a straight buff and does give them more tactical flexibility.

[Dracos]

I love Centurion model and want to for the table top but you can get about 6 Aggressors for the same cost

 

 

... and I like having the option of power fist for the inevitable charge

[chapter master 454]

Another factor is it benefits certain units in combination with stratagems too. Personally I like to combo the rhino primaris with 2 abilities, one is the iron hands merciless logic on a land raider excelsior and the other is bolter drill on sternguard. However with vigilus you can also now put in intercessors too (it may cost a little more but don't worry about it).

 

So with sternguard, one thing that hurt them was they really couldn't get serious firepower down range unless you delivered them within 15" and went for double tap that way. It was high risk and generally did mean they were toast if the enemy could weather the storm (though I have managed to deal 14 wounds to T7 3+ save statline with the combo) along with needing to invest in the delivery method (often a land raider or stormraven, both pricey). Now Sternguard can sit back and do some serious damage from afar and if they haven't been blitzed off the board by turn 3 or something, they can start moving up field to take some objectives.

As for intercessors well it makes the vigilus indomitus crusaders not too shabby. Sure, it does cost a fair sum of CP but in marines...what else are you going to spent CP on if you are committing to bolter strats? So now you can have 10 intercessors level out 40 shots down range (sort of like those veterans you guys were going on about) and if you want, give them the primaris boost with bolter drill, a captain nearby and lay out 53 odd bolter rounds up to 30" out on average (and since you are hitting on 2+ with re-roll 1s, maths says you will miss something like 1 and a half shots) with AP1. Yea, it does take CP to do it but it is technically cheaper AND it is on a primaris TROOP frame (so obsec is live) and your intercessors even have 3 attacks each from the veteran buff.

 

Personally I feel there is a little too much focus on the hurricane. Yes, it is a good buff to it BUT let us be honest here most units it would go on could get the double tap active just by course of events. However that being said it does make the hurricane active from 24" away which does mean it is a threat from turn 1 instead of turn 2. The big winners in that regard are devastator centurions. Those big boys really couldn't get them active in a normal game except under defence of themselves but now, they can pump out he full effect and get something done...now if only hurricane boltguns weren't 10 points each.

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I'm loving the units that have access to the Hurricane Bolter but I do see the merit in other units getting this buff.

 

You're right Sternguard might just be worthwhile on foot now. Especially if you have some aggressive units such as Vanguard with their cheap Storm Shields and cheaper Terminators.

 

In fact, 2 units of Sternguard in support of an attack would be very tasty, firing 30 away. Quite cheap too for the pleasure.

[chapter master 454]

Personally I'm loving the units that have access to the Hurricane Bolter but I do see the merit in other units getting this buff.

 

You're right Sternguard might just be worthwhile on foot now. Especially if you have some aggressive units such as Vanguard with their cheap Storm Shields and cheaper Terminators.

 

In fact, 2 units of Sternguard in support of an attack would be very tasty, firing 30 away. Quite cheap too for the pleasure.

 

To be honest, one thing I think that has been touched on is tactical flex it gives marines which...surprisingly is what we wanted/needed. Now we get to chose how to engage and even tacticals won't feel a complete waste, as now for our troops to be effective it doesn't require a delivery method which is not only big for primaris (who don't have any good options there) but for any unit that has to include bolters as now they don't feel like dead weight models added just because we had to

[Jacques Corbin]

Ok, so I have 2 questions.

 

1. Are the extra bolter marines in a Devastator Squad worth takung now? I mean, that unit never moves if it can be helped, so those 5 will always be pumping out 10 bolter shots.

 

2. Could this herald the return of Rhino Rush lists? A Rhino with a second Storm Bolter will always be cranking out 8 shots at full range.

[Captain Idaho]

8 Bolters at range is nice. Extra bolter dudes are spare wounds but not wasted now.

[Panzer]

Had a match against DG with my Primaris BA yesterday. We included all the beta rules as well so this means I could test Bolter Discipline.

It was pretty much as I expected. It didn't really help a whole lot but it made me feel less bad about leaving two units of Intercessors behind camping on objectives. On the other hand the Intercessoe unit I drove up to the enemy inside of the Repulsor just felt like I've put them in danger for no real reason (partly because they simply can't do much against Blightlords though I admit).

The extra shots on my Repulsor and Redemptor Dread were nice but I'd say they have more than enough dakka that a few more shots are barely noticeable.

 

So this one game so far just confirmed what I was assuming before. Nice for objective camping Intercessors but overall not really what Marines need to make them work as they should.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah that's how I consider the performance of Beta Bolters for most units to go.

 

There are certain units that are really helped by the rules though. Centurions and Ironclads jumped out at me and I think including these units into an army can salve some wounds for Marines.

[Lemondish]

Had a match against DG with my Primaris BA yesterday. We included all the beta rules as well so this means I could test Bolter Discipline.

It was pretty much as I expected. It didn't really help a whole lot but it made me feel less bad about leaving two units of Intercessors behind camping on objectives. On the other hand the Intercessoe unit I drove up to the enemy inside of the Repulsor just felt like I've put them in danger for no real reason (partly because they simply can't do much against Blightlords though I admit).

The extra shots on my Repulsor and Redemptor Dread were nice but I'd say they have more than enough dakka that a few more shots are barely noticeable.

 

So this one game so far just confirmed what I was assuming before. Nice for objective camping Intercessors but overall not really what Marines need to make them work as they should.

I imagine it's pretty irrelevant for Blood Angels in general - they usually wanted to get in your face anyway.

[Panzer]

 

Had a match against DG with my Primaris BA yesterday. We included all the beta rules as well so this means I could test Bolter Discipline.

It was pretty much as I expected. It didn't really help a whole lot but it made me feel less bad about leaving two units of Intercessors behind camping on objectives. On the other hand the Intercessoe unit I drove up to the enemy inside of the Repulsor just felt like I've put them in danger for no real reason (partly because they simply can't do much against Blightlords though I admit).

The extra shots on my Repulsor and Redemptor Dread were nice but I'd say they have more than enough dakka that a few more shots are barely noticeable.

 

So this one game so far just confirmed what I was assuming before. Nice for objective camping Intercessors but overall not really what Marines need to make them work as they should.

I imagine it's pretty irrelevant for Blood Angels in general - they usually wanted to get in your face anyway.

 

 

Not really if you play Primaris. Some S4 AP0 attacks aren't exactly good even if you get +1 to-wound the first round of combat. It may change if we get some proper melee Primaris though.

[Lemondish]

Yeah that's how I consider the performance of Beta Bolters for most units to go.

 

There are certain units that are really helped by the rules though. Centurions and Ironclads jumped out at me and I think including these units into an army can salve some wounds for Marines.

My limited experience showed units like Sternguard and Terminators also benefited pretty heavily by giving them more options for deployment and use as well.

 

Haven't had to face a 1k sons list with Rubrics or Scarab Occult Termies yet though - I imagine that could get interesting.

[Ishagu]

Blightlords survive a full turn of shooting from a Castellan lol. Why would you think some Intercessors would deal much damage?

 

I don't think think Bolters are much good against DG anyways, outside of huge volumes.

[Lemondish]

Blightlords survive a full turn of shooting from a Castellan lol. Why would you think some Intercessors would deal much damage?

 

I don't think think Bolters are much good against DG anyways, outside of huge volumes.

Great points.

 

Only one of my two games I played was against a horde list that I usually had issue handling that many bodies, and this had an impact (which seems to be the point of the rule).